Transmission Problem

Thought I"d post up here as I know there is some great knowledge on this board and if someone hasn't had this problem in the past on this bike, or another, someone with mechanical knowledge of motorcycle transmissions mght have an idea of what might be happening and why.

I ride the bike everyday to work, rain / shine / cold / hot, along with tearing up Hill Country roads most weekends. Been riding for years and haven't had a transmission problem on a bike since the original FJ's and the notorious Yamaha 2nd gear problems. I have a Erion 929 CBR with 47K on it and it's transmision works just fine, the point being I don't think I am abusive at all in transmissions.

I give the bike a warm up time to at least one bar, if not two, on the temp gauge. Enough to start to warm the motor, but of course the engine oil is along way from operating temp and this seems to affect this new problem. I've noticed lately, when the engine oil is not warmed up completely, when coming to a stop and downshifting through the gears, once I get to the point of going from second to first it doesn't want to go into first, the shift lever just pushes down freely.

It doesn't do it all the time, but is now happening more frequent. If it doesn't go into first, shifting up and then back down does no good. Letting the clutch out a little to get the gears to spin in order to mesh, does no good. Other times, when it does go into first I notice that instead of the lever not wanting to push down any further, it has what I can only describe as free play and you can continue to push the peddle down, with it springing back up. In typical operation, once into first you should not be able to push the shift lever down, it should have what I would describe a stop to it.

Yesterday, I had to take off in third gear because at one stop it wouldn't go down into second and no amount of coaxing at stop would get it to drop any further in the gear range.

Once the oil is up to operating temp, I've not noticed the problem but suspect here in time it will start to happen even more frequently, so far that's the history.

Anyway, long way to the question I know... anyone had this problem? Or anyone know what might be causing it? I'd like to have some kind of heads up when taking it to the dealership. Inevitably the local dealer will tell me they can't duplicate the problem, afterall, it's under warranty and it's a transmission problem they probably don't want to mess with.

I'm not 100% certain that the problem you describe is the same as in the links below, but it sounds similar. Check out these threads to determine if this is something you want to try.

Sticky shift

Sticky shift #2

Inlaw1 said:

...anyone know what might be causing it? I'd like to have some kind of heads up when taking it to the dealership. Inevitably the local dealer will tell me they can't duplicate the problem,

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From what you've written, it sounds like an issue with the shift shaft or (maybe?) the end of the shift drum? The shift shaft has a mechanism on its inner end that rotates the shift drum (which then slides the shift forks to disengage and engage the gears).

Since it sounds like the problem lessens when warm (shifting gets easier), it could be something-like a burr/bend/chip or wear on the business-end of the shift shaft?

Inlaw1 said:

... afterall, it's under warranty and it's a transmission problem they probably don't want to mess with.

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Any dealer worth a darn will welcome warranty work. After all, they get paid for it by Yamaha and the bigger the job -- the more the pay.

An exception might be -- in the Spring (or, other high-volume time in the shop) when they may be backed-up with work?

"afterall, it's under warranty and it's a transmission problem they probably don't want to mess with.

Any dealer worth a darn will welcome warranty work. After all, they get paid for it by Yamaha and the bigger the job -- the more the pay.

An exception might be -- in the Spring (or, other high-volume time in the shop) when they may be backed-up with work?"

Except when it is the transmission. Unless it is so obvious that Stevie Wonder himself could diagnose it my experience has been that Yammie dealers tend to shy away from warranty work in this area.

They will give it a try by hitting the low hanging fruit, i.e. adjusting the shift mechanism, cleaning the mechinism, etc....but if there is any hint that splitting the case may be involved they will play hot potatoes with it. Once again I am talking about issues that arent that obvious but hint that it may involve worn shift forks or something along those lines.

kolonial72 said:

I'm not 100% certain that the problem you describe is the same as in the links below, but it sounds similar. Check out these threads to determine if this is something you want to try.
Sticky shift

Sticky shift #2

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Thanks for the reply, but no, I don't think either of those are my problem. The bike has 45K on it and I've never had an issue with a stuck clutch or hard shifting and the shift lever moves freely. I have had the issue where stopping too quickly I wasn't able to down shift properly through the gears and then had to rock the bike or slightly engage the clutch in order to mech the gears to move down through each gear (while at a stop).

charismaticmegafauna said:

From what you've written, it sounds like an issue with the shift shaft or (maybe?) the end of the shift drum? The shift shaft has a mechanism on its inner end that rotates the shift drum (which then slides the shift forks to disengage and engage the gears).Since it sounds like the problem lessens when warm (shifting gets easier), it could be something-like a burr/bend/chip or wear on the business-end of the shift shaft?

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I'm thinking this is more along the lines of what might be my problem. Something to do with the shifting shaft, or whatever mechanism (careful, I know I'm using technical jargon here) is at the end of that shaft and moves the gears.

My plan at this point is to wait until the problem gets so bad that there is no way the dealer can not duplicate it.

Inlaw1 said:

...My plan at this point is to wait until the problem gets so bad that there is no way the dealer can not duplicate it.

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If it really turns out to be your transmission, and it sure sounds like it, consider the time frame of the repair. The engine has to come out of the frame and the bottom end has to be split; disassemble happens until the problem is found and only then do the parts get ordered. With any luck the parts will be here in the US. The whole process then has to be reversed and hopefully nothing goes wrong. So, you have to ask yourself, do you want to do this at a time of your choosing outside of the summer riding season or take a possible 3-4 month hit during the prime summer riding season?

There have been a couple of reports of bolts being loose in the transmission and final gear assembly. On the one hand, here is to hoping that this is your problem and the bolt doesn't fall out and go someplace unfortunate. On the other hand the engine still has to come out and apart to find the bolt problem.

Good luck with this and wishing you a happy outcome.

I almost religiously blip the throttle on most down shifts and have not experienced this kind of problem. Can you pls confirm that blipping the throttle has not effect or if you have not tried it give it a shot to see if you still have this problem?

ionbeam said:

Inlaw1 said:

...My plan at this point is to wait until the problem gets so bad that there is no way the dealer can not duplicate it.

Click to expand...

If it really turns out to be your transmission, and it sure sounds like it, consider the time frame of the repair. The engine has to come out of the frame and the bottom end has to be split; disassemble happens until the problem is found and only then do the parts get ordered. With any luck the parts will be here in the US. The whole process then has to be reversed and hopefully nothing goes wrong. So, you have to ask yourself, do you want to do this at a time of your choosing outside of the summer riding season or take a possible 3-4 month hit during the prime summer riding season?

There have been a couple of reports of bolts being loose in the transmission and final gear assembly. On the one hand, here is to hoping that this is your problem and the bolt doesn't fall out and go someplace unfortunate. On the other hand the engine still has to come out and apart to find the bolt problem.

Good luck with this and wishing you a happy outcome.

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I'm glad somebody like Ion posted the above, because now I won't feel totally idiotic for saying the following:

Your problem sounds a LOT like my Yamaha VSTAR 1100 with about 10K on the clock. It wouldn't shift in or out of second sometimes, no real rhyme or reason and I was almost embarrassed to bring it in. I was newly back to motorcycling after a few years hiatus and figured I was the problem. Thought I'd just live with it. The diagnosis: A bolt in the transmission was only a few threads away from causing major shrapnel damage. Took a couple days and I got a free oil change. The wrench said the bolt obviously wasn't torqued correctly at the factory.

My humble suggestion: Bring in the bike, explain the symptoms and if they turn you away, get a work order or documentation you brought it in. If the worst happens, there is a paper trail.

JamesK said:

I almost religiously blip the throttle on most down shifts and have not experienced this kind of problem. Can you pls confirm that blipping the throttle has not effect or if you have not tried it give it a shot to see if you still have this problem?

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About 50% of the time I do the same, mostly while what I'll call sport riding. The other half is usually in stop and go traffic and will downshift into the next gear as I percieve I'm about to hit the RPM that it would mesh the gears for a smooth downshift.

To answer your concern: I do not consider blipping the throttle (when done correctly for a smooth downshift) while downshifing to be abusive to a transmission. And I'm pretty sure it is not part of my current problem.

ShinyPartsUp said:

My humble suggestion: Bring in the bike, explain the symptoms and if they turn you away, get a work order or documentation you brought it in. If the worst happens, there is a paper trail.

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This is probably a good idea, prudent, idea. While I do have YES for another year and half, being proactive in getting help for what I know is a developing problem is probably the best tract to take.

TRY THIS FIRST,,,, take the linkage apart,,the shifter off n clean n grease all pivot points,,,this is probably your problem,,it wont return all the way to ratchet,if it is the shifter ratchet ,,u can remove the clutch, n shift mechanism without removing the engine or splitting the cases,,u have to remove the engine n split the cases to get the shift drum out though,,there r 2 6mm allens that hold the shift drum in,,they r locktited from the factory,,,it might be the pawl that grabs the shift drum n turns it ,,good luck

Smooth_Gary said:

TRY THIS FIRST,,,, take the linkage apart,,the shifter off n clean n grease all pivot points,,,this is probably your problem,,it wont return all the way to ratchet,if it is the shifter ratchet ,,u can remove the clutch, n shift mechanism without removing the engine or splitting the cases,,u have to remove the engine n split the cases to get the shift drum out though,,there r 2 6mm allens that hold the shift drum in,,they r locktited from the factory,,,it might be the pawl that grabs the shift drum n turns it ,,good luck

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hell no...let them do it - definitely don't want to do anything that Yamaha would construe as possibility detremental

and protect yourself and don't say or admit any "out of the box" habits in your riding/shifting/maintenance etc.

like a defendant in court, be very distinct describing the symptoms and do not elaborate on anything else or guess at the problem or solution. Answer any question with an accurate, but very short answer.

I'd be paranoid that Yamaha might try to minimize their liability, especially in this troublesome economy.

I might also try to find a "5 star" shop that has pulled engines, opened cases, and has expertise on troubleshooting transmissions and does not back away from such a condition.

I remember somewhere here a database available to find a 5 star shop. I'd personally avail myself of that.

edit: I googled "yamaha 5 star certified service department in san antonio" and there it is...

best of luck as my bike was down July 28th through Dec 6th with an engine replacement done by a local independent shop that I picked because they have sucessfully done many, many engine swaps of sport bikes, Goldwings, and Harleys.

They didn't even blink when I provided my bike and a used engine off ebay in a crate.

Wish you the best,

Mike in Nawlins'

Welp, this board must have powers we all don't quite understand. Just writing about my problem seems to have solved it! Ever since posting up here, it hasn't happened once! I LIKE that!

Well, that is until if / when it finally does crater.

charismaticmegafauna, ionbeam and shinypartsup all provided answers I'd pursue. The only thing I have to add is a consequence of your observation that it only happens when the oil is not yet warm (it's still more viscous than when warm).

Oil discussions are what they are, and we've had some of the best here. Without going into the marketing hype of some oil discussions, there's one thing that everyone agrees synthetic oil does: it works better in extreme cold. It's almost always lighter weight at room temperature than a dino oil designed for the same high temps. (I use it in my car because I'm often in the mountains in the winter.) When it's cold, it's going to get to places you need it more quickly, because at those temps, it's lighter than a comparable dino that hasn't warmed up yet.

So, if the bike starts doing this again, I'd maybe try a crankcase full of synthetic (e.g., the Honda HP) once to see if its thinner cold temp viscosity might avoid the problem. Still, given the miles on the bike, the relatively new onset of the problem and ionbeam's observations, I think I'd be pestering the dealer to address it while it's still under warranty.

Smooth_Gary said:

TRY THIS FIRST,,,, take the linkage apart,,the shifter off n clean n grease all pivot points,,,this is probably your problem,,it wont return all the way to ratchet,if it is the shifter ratchet ,,u can remove the clutch, n shift mechanism without removing the engine or splitting the cases,,u have to remove the engine n split the cases to get the shift drum out though,,there r 2 6mm allens that hold the shift drum in,,they r locktited from the factory,,,it might be the pawl that grabs the shift drum n turns it ,,good luck

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I don't even know what this post says!!! What's the difference between how many commas there are? Is n really a word? Your laziness in typing makes anybody who wants this information have to work harder for it. I chose not to, so I have no idea what you're talking about. :angry:

Inlaw1 said:

<major snippage>........when coming to a stop and downshifting through the gears, once I get to the point of going from second to first it doesn't want to go into first, the shift lever just pushes down freely.
It doesn't do it all the time, but is now happening more frequent. If it doesn't go into first, shifting up and then back down does no good. Letting the clutch out a little to get the gears to spin in order to mesh, does no good. Other times, when it does go into first I notice that instead of the lever not wanting to push down any further, it has what I can only describe as free play and you can continue to push the peddle down, with it springing back up. In typical operation, once into first you should not be able to push the shift lever down, it should have what I would describe a stop to it.

Yesterday, I had to take off in third gear because at one stop it wouldn't go down into second and no amount of coaxing at stop would get it to drop any further in the gear range.

<more snippage>

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It sounds to me like you have a habit of coming to a stop and then ratcheting the gears down to first.

I've always heard and was taught that this is the worst thing one can do to a constant mesh transmission. In order to shift smoothly, and prevent excess wear on the shift dogs and extra stress on the shift forks, the shafts should all be rotating (bike in motion).

May I suggest you try shifting down as you come to a stop. I normally have mine in 1st gear by the time I've slowed to 10 mph, or so.

If you ARE in the habit of stopping THEN shifting, the next time it "locks", try turning off the engine and rocking the bike back and forth while moving the shifter. That should take the engine force off the main shaft and allow the gears to easily slide.

Just my thought and opinion and worth exactly what you've paid for it.

madmike2 said:

It sounds to me like you have a habit of coming to a stop and then ratcheting the gears down to first.

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Thanks for the reply Mike, and I can understand why you might think this. But it's not the case. I always downshift through the gears as I'm slowing. I generally try and do the actual shifting when the gears are "meshed". Unless it's diving into a corner, where I will flick the throttle to rev the motor while downshifting. Or a panic stop where you might not be able to downshift as fast as needed.

The reason I came to a complete stop and was still in third was because of the described problem and it wouldn't downshift, and I ended up stopped for a light. While I could of shut off the motor and rocked the bike, the act of slightly engaging the clutch and letting the bike move a little with the motor running has the same effect, and it did no good in getting gears to mesh so I could downshift.... the shifter was in free play. I feel like the problem is in the shifter mechanism somewhere because when this does occur, it just feels like the shifter is detached and doing nothing... and nothing is happening.