Relay Arm Service

I was performing the now annual relay arm service on my bike last week and noticed that the bearing sleeve in the relay arm that the dog bones attach to were showing some wear from the needle bearings:



Now just last year I replaced the other two bearings at the fore and aft ends of the relay arm along with the inner sleeves. I checked this middle sleeve and it was OK. I greased it and reassembled it. Also the other one (in the swing arm) looked fine. I'll be replacing this sleeve and the two needle bearings.

Question for any one who has replaced the middle two needle bearings: How tough is it to get them out? The end bearings are easy since you can just push them through the relay arm. It looks like the middle ones have to come out toward the nearest side. Can I just push them through from the far side like a wheel bearing? Advice appreciated. My concern is not damaging the bearing, but the relay arm. Thanks in advance.

You cannot press the middle bearings through the casting. They must be pulled outward. I have to use a Motion Pro blind bearing puller.

Look for a blind hole puller set. At sears or Norther Hydraulic.

What a great place this forum is... :yahoo:

FJReady said:

I was performing the now annual relay arm service on my bike last week and noticed that the bearing sleeve in the relay arm that the dog bones attach to were showing some wear from the needle bearings:

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Is that abnormally bad so that it really needs replacement?

SkooterG said:

Is that abnormally bad so that it really needs replacement?

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I've seen them much worse. But if you have the whole damn thing apart and are trying to tighten up the suspension, then yes, it needs replacing.

Actually you will find that most of the play comes from those bushing sleeves rather than the bearings. The bearing needles are much harder surfaces than the bushings, so the bushing sleeves tend to wear first.

HaulinAshe said:

SkooterG said:

Is that abnormally bad so that it really needs replacement?

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I've seen them much worse. But if you have the whole damn thing apart and are trying to tighten up the suspension, then yes, it needs replacing.

Actually you will find that most of the play comes from those bushing sleeves rather than the bearings. The bearing needles are much harder surfaces than the bushings, so the bushing sleeves tend to wear first.

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Thanks Jeff,

I ordered the bearings and sleeve. I think what I will do is take a good close look at the needles under a scope and see if they look worn at all. I agree that they're harder than the sleeve. to the nekkid eye they look fine and the sleeves are obviously worn by pin contact pressure. If that is so I'll just replace the sleeve and save the needle bearings for possible future action.

Thanks for your comments.

FJReady said:

I ordered the bearings and sleeve.

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You probably have already, but make sure you order/replace the seals. New seals are everything and cheap! You'd be shocked at how long the bearings and sleeves will last once you re-pack them with good waterproof grease and fresh seals.

Be very careful about greasing/packing the bearings. The bearing separators themselves are actually part of the (permanent) lubrication. They can easily be torn or damaged. If you manage to dislodge one, that bearing is basically toast. The idea is to always PRESS grease into the bearing needles. DON'T SLIDE your fingers across them.

HaulinAshe said:

The bearing separators themselves are actually part of the (permanent) lubrication. They can easily be torn or damaged. If you manage to dislodge one, that bearing is basically toast. The idea is to always PRESS grease into the bearing needles. DON'T SLIDE your fingers across them.

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If you are talking about what I think you are talking about....... Once upon a time about 8 years ago when installing my new Wilbers shock and greasing some of the suspension stuff, I think I pulled one of those out wondering what the hell it was. That was at 30k miles. Everything was still working fine at 226k miles???

SkooterG said:

That was at 30k miles. Everything was still working fine at 226k miles???

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226,000 on the original engine? That's unreal. Makes my worrying over mine doing 45,000 seem

ridiculous

Matt101 said:

SkooterG said:

That was at 30k miles. Everything was still working fine at 226k miles???

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226,000 on the original engine? That's unreal. Makes my worrying over mine doing 45,000 seem

ridiculous

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45,000 - just barely broken in. I sincerely hope to get 150,000 + out of mine without major issues. Although I don't expect to make this stuff a regular service, I would like to get it all completely apart at least once - just to make sure it was initially properly lubed and assembled at the factory. Currently have no issues and would like to keep it that way. I have around 55,000 miles on it now and will probably do a MAJOR service on everything next winter. Should have another 25-30 on it by then.

HaulinAshe said:

Be very careful about greasing/packing the bearings. The bearing separators themselves are actually part of the (permanent) lubrication. They can easily be torn or damaged. If you manage to dislodge one, that bearing is basically toast. The idea is to always PRESS grease into the bearing needles. DON'T SLIDE your fingers across them.

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Ruh roh!! This is the first time I have seen this information. And, if this is in regard to that waxy/plasticky stuff in between each of the needles, and your information is is accurate, I think it is too late for my poor old bearings. When I did the lube job last winter I pulled out all of that plasticky stuff as it just looked like hardened grease, then goobered in my own waterproof grease instead. The stuff was only found in the single bearings at each end of the relay arm. The double bearings in the middle of the relay arm (that Russ is talking about) have a metal insert retaining the needles. Can't recall what the deal was with the bearings in the swing arm, but I think it was more waxy/plastic.

My thoughts on the plastic needle separaters is it not only lubes, but it also keeps the needles in place so they don't turn sideways. If they turn sideways,just a little, they will no longer spin easily and prematurely wear out. Most U-Joints I've seen the needles are so close together that they can't turn sideways.

What I was taught many years ago about bearings is that the condition of the race is a good indication of the bearing condition. So if the sleeve shows wear then R & R both the sleeve and bearing.

Also lube with a good waterproof grease, but not grease with Teflon in it. Grease with Teflon is not meant for anything with needle brgs. It is so slippery that the needles will slide instead of role, and if they slide they will flat spot.

I'm pretty sure that those needles are packed in tight enough that they couldn't turn sideways at all.

Plus it's worth considering that these bearings only make a pivot of a maybe, what? 90 degrees? In other words they are not rotating far or fast.

Still, if that plastic stuff is at all beneficial, it would have been good to know that and leave it in place.

Also good tip on skipping the the Teflon greases.

Fred W said:

Ruh roh!! This is the first time I have seen this information. And, if this is in regard to that waxy/plasticky stuff in between each of the needles, and your information is is accurate, I think it is too late for my poor old bearings. When I did the lube job last winter I pulled out all of that plasticky stuff as it just looked like hardened grease, then goobered in my own waterproof grease instead. The stuff was only found in the single bearings at each end of the relay arm. The double bearings in the middle of the relay arm (that Russ is talking about) have a metal insert retaining the needles. Can't recall what the deal was with the bearings in the swing arm, but I think it was more waxy/plastic.

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Ruh roh Fred!



Yep, that waxy/plastic looking stuff is actually BOTH the needles separator and lubrication. They are designed to occupy just enough space to keep the needles from contacting each other and keep them contacting only the outer race and inner sleeve surfaces. If you remove ALL the waxy/plastic separators and wash the bearing clean, you CAN migrate all the needles toward each other enough to create a nasty gap.

You can get by with a lot of error in relay arms because they don't spin round and round. Only a partial rotation ever occurs. Most of the force is perpendicular to the axis instead of rotational. But to get your relay arm working smoothly and tight again, you will need to spend $100 on parts and replace bearings, sleeves and seals. IIRC you are right about the inner bearings having phenolic separators that don't easily tear out. They should be fine.

Sorry!!! It's a hard lesson I learned long ago when Yamaha first switched bearing types on race bikes. My old habit of washing and repacking needle bearings went right out the window. Disturbing even one of those waxy separators will shred the inside of a transmission under high rpm.

I should find the pix of my relay bearings as the 'what not to do' example.

I am good for somethings, after all?

Rode home from Oregon to central Kali with at least 7-10 needles missing and honestly did not notice any real difference.

Then read of guys with bad failures and results..

Jeff, Thanks so much for your input -

Don

I don't know, 200,000 miles on one of those linkages without the bearing separator with nary a problem......

HaulinAshe said:

Sorry!!! It's a hard lesson I learned long ago when Yamaha first switched bearing types on race bikes. My old habit of washing and repacking needle bearings went right out the window. Disturbing even one of those waxy separators will shred the inside of a transmission under high rpm.

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Well, I have to say I feel like quite a dufus. I really did think it was some sort of unintentionally hardened grease mess in there.

But the good news is that I bought the entire relay arm (and rear shock) from James Burleigh's bike, so I have a spare.

I'll have to see if those bearings are unmolested and usable. If so, I can then rebuild my old one at my leisure.

I probably could get away with annual repacking of those old bearings, like skooter did, even though I might never reach 200k miles on it.

But I'd really rather make it be "correct" and be done with it.

Arise again, oh zombie thread.

Installing the first bearing in the rearmost part of the relay arm, I seated the bearing by putting a block of wood against it and hit the wood until the bearing was flush with the outer surface of the arm. Then I switched to a 16mm socket to seat it deep enough to make room for the oil seal. Except, when I stuck my pinky in there to see if the bearing spun...it didn't. I think I crushed part of the outer rim of the bearing. Before I F-up another one, is there a better method for seating them?