Suspension comparison

I'm in the process of determinig what might be the best suspension mod for me. I'm probably a dollar short and a day late since I missed the GB however here goes.

Has anyone had opportunity to compare the various suspension setups. Since they are all better than stock I don't want to ask a blanket question of how good the aftermarket setups are. I'm more interested in how the various setups compare to one another. Since I weigh 330 lbs, carry 50 lbs of gear and a third of the time carry a 200 lb pillion I've been in need of a better suspension from the door. I think most standard suspension setups are for riders between 140 lbs and 200 lbs tops.

The suspension mods I'm considering are the GPSuspension's Penske rear with Soqi front rebuild, Traxxion's Penske/AK-20 rebuild and the Hyperpro rear with upgraded progressive front springs. Just as a matter of fact the HyperPro units that were quoted me were a model 460 shock as oppose to the type 41's that most install. I wonder if the model 460 is Wilber USA's equivalent to the Hyperpro type 46. In doing my math I come up with about a whooping 1,230 lb spring load requirement when I ride doubled up and still over 1,000 lbs when I ride solo.

With that much weight on the bike, I can't see how the fine points of comparison are going to be significant when compared to the sea change of upgrading from the flogged OEM to any of those makes that are sprung and valved for your weight(s).

Having said that, I have the Penske/Traxxion AK-20 set up on my Blackbird, and the Wilbers shock and fork springs on my FJR. No comparison is going to tell you much unless it's on the same bike and you have dialed it in, which takes us amateurs a little while. Still, the Penske/Traxxion AK-20 on the Blackbird is amazing, and in the almost meaningless comparison to the Wilbers/Wilbers on my FJR, the Penske/Traxxion eats its lunch and justifies the more than twice as expensive investment. (The Blackbird's OEM front suspension is not adjustable, and the full AK-20 kit was a much bigger upgrade than just the Wilbers springs my FJR got.)

Note also that I'm about 190, ride the Blackbird solo, and use the FJR for all the two up riding I do, and she's 127. The more single purpose the bike is with one weight to set up for, the easier the manufacturer's job in getting you something that always scratches your itch correctly.

I had the Wilbers and was quite happy with it as it was a huge improvement over stock. I dialed in some extra ride height for better cornering clearance and the remote preload was really nice for switching between riding with and without the wife. Don't think I'd recommend them though, since their US operation is kinda dicey right now and a few people have reported failures.

I've actually had some long talks with Klaus at WilberUSA and he's real happy with a new product series that HyperPro has just released. That being the 460 and 461 series shock. What's good about it is that the actual cyclinder is a composite of steel and possibly titanium while the piston assembly is 7075 aluminum aircraft alloy. The piston shaft is a hefty 16mm as oppose to 14mm that you get with Penske, Wilber and even Ohlin. Even though I ride my bike like I stole it all the time I don't get it confused with being a racer. The Pros might race with the same set of dampeners for maybe one full race and seldom two. Durability out weighs the lightness of the componets for me. I'm not that interested in having to rebuild and service my shocks every 15K t0 20K miles. At 330 lbs I'm not going to outpeform a person weighing 150lbs on the same machine. I'll probably out ride most but that's a different subject.

I've set the stock dampening to very firm and ride on the hard setting all the time and It's not too bad solo. The problems come in when I have my lady onboard which adds almost another 180 to 200 lbs. Since my finances aren't unlimited I'm considering trying this new HyperPro series of Shock and just go with a heavier infinite progression front spring setup with the stock valving and see how it works. I've actually worked out a deal for myself that is easily equivalent to the Group Buy. The 460 series shock is almost equivalent to HyperPro's full blown 3D series racing shock except for the housing. With the external dampener we're talking about a $1100 shock as good as any out there including Ohlins ( keep in mind that's not what I'm paying but what it's worth if it were an Ohlin shock). I'll double check and verify that they can handle the 950 to 1000 lb spring requirement that I need. If that's not a problem I'll give Klaus a shot at it besides they are somewhat local to me and I intend to let them do the complete install.

I think that Wilber USA got a bad rap for reasons beyond Klaus' control and actually sourced by the manufacturer. I think that all should be changed now with this new company. From what I've heard here most were actually happy and satisfied with their purchases of the Wilber products. We always have those who like to exaggerate the negatives. Those that did have problems and informed Klaus about it, they were rectified. There are a few who stated they had problems and never told Wilber USA about it. I wonder if there wasn't some politics going on to help promote other vendors.

I've spent the last couple days reviewing all the post about suspension upgrades for the last 2 years. I think the last GB should have included the Traxxion and WilberUSA new product line to give better choices and options for us to decide from. Each company have viable setups that are different for the different riding styles of our members. Maybe a forum group discount can be setup across the board for GPSuspensions, Traxxion and Wilber USA.

Just my .02

You and I have alot in common with the wieght issue. I am currently 330, But was 380 when i spec'd out the suspension

I went with the 900# Penske 8981 and the Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 kit and forgot the spring rates up front, But These guys dialed it in purrrrrfect for me!

Good luck with your endeavor,

Adam

Thanks Adam

Actually I have more research info to share. The Netherland Police use FJR's for their police bikes. HyerPro is in the Netherlands and they service the Police Dept. HyperPro has a true progressive rate spring for the front forks as opossed to a dual rate spring. Extensive testing was done on the FJR by the Netherland Police Dept. and they found that re-valving the front forks didn't make that much a change in the handling characteristics. Having the proper spring rate did. They also found that the OEM shock that Yamaha uses is actually a superb shock as long as it's not worn out. I only have 6,300 miles on my bike and the shocks are fine. They have heavier custom springs that are made especially for them for the OEM shock and that system works fine.

SO.......... Klaus is ordering the progressive rate front fork springs and oil, a custom heavy duty spring to replace the OEM spring according to my weight requirements. The hardware cost less than $300. I'll see how that works out. At which time my factory shocks wear out then I'll consider the HyprPro 461 series as a replacement for the rear.

The setup that I'll use is vurtually the same that the Netherland Police Department uses. I'll let yall know how it works out in a couple weeks after everything comes in and is installed. It may be something to consider for us budget minded folks.

Maybe since I've never rode a FJR with either the GPSuspension or the Traxxion Penske/AK20 setup I'm just naive to how much better a FJR can ride and handle. Then again I've never ridden exotic sports bikes either. I kinda wanted more feedback from you guys that have had the modded suspensions to rest my mind and convince me that the monies spent transformed the FJR enough to justify the changes other than bragging rights. I've always thought that the bike rode pretty darn good from the factory except for the fact that I knew the FJR was under sprung for my weight. My logic tells me that it takes more than sport shocks and cartridges to transform a Sports tourer into a sports bike. I need more feedback from you guys. If your thinking I don't know what I'm talking about then tell me. You guys have the setups. If the suspension mods are so good that it makes the stock suspension feel like Cinderella then I need to hear that. I do recall someone saying that to them the change was not that drastic. Perhaps that person's body wieght was more ideal to the stock setup as opossed to mine.

It's funny I keep thinking of a Kia commercial that tries to commpare one of their models to a BMW. Just no freakin way. Even if you put Bosch shocks or a BMW suspension on it, it will still be a Kia.

I'm just tryring to get you guys stirred up enough to say something. Most of the previous post were made in anticipation of getting the mods done. It appears that at least 100 mods have been made according to the numbers of the various group buys. I just haven't heard much from you guys since the mods were done. What's ppuuurrrfect for one person may not be perfect for another. Can you be more specific in what made it perfect for you?

Don't anybody get it twisted. I ride my FJR like I stole it and I'm trying to escape execution. I'm having a hard time with putting out $1400 to $2000 for mods if the amount of change isn't significant.

Did I piss anybody off yet? :assassin:

qmotion said:

I'm just tryring to get you guys stirred up enough to say something. Most of the previous post were made in anticipation of getting the mods done. It appears that at least 100 mods have been made according to the numbers fo the various group buys. I just haven't heard much from you guys since the mods were done. What's ppuuurrrfect for one person may not be perfect for another. Can you be more specific in what made it perfect for you?

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Ok, I will take the bait. I have a 05 with a Wilbers 640 shock and the GP front fork rebuild. A couple of weeks ago I compared my 05 to a pretty new 06 (3500 miles). I thought the 06's ride and handling was every bit as good as mine as long as we were on smooth pavement and the suspension was using the low speed damping circuits. As soon as we rode over broken pavement and some serious bumps it was quite obvious to both of us which bike had the superior ride and handling.

Suspension mods are a bit more than changing springs although the springs are the most important component. All three components (spring rate, compression damping, and rebound damping) need to work together and if you change the spring rate without changing the damping you may not get the result you are looking for. Changing fork oil may not be the answer either because different fork oil will change both compression and rebound damping in the same direction when what you usually want to do after installing heavier springs is to decrease compression damping and increase rebound damping.

Does aftermarket suspension help that much? It really depends on the riding conditions since most of the improvements are going to be in the high speed damping circuits. If you mostly ride on smooth roads you may not notice that much difference although I think anyone normally carrying a load over 300 pounds will see a benefit on all road surfaces if they use a heavier shock spring.

Along those same lines, I think anyone who carries a 600 pound load on an FJR is missing the big picture. The manufactures gross vehicle weights and tire capacities are there for a reason and if you exceed those capacities by more than 10 percent you may be flirting with disaster.

It will be interesting to hear your experience following the "Dutch" lead. I thought the 06 I rode had too much high speed compression damping at both ends and it would seem that if you put a much larger spring on the stock shock without changing the damping then you are going to end up with too much high speed compression damping and not nearly enough rebound damping.

MCRIDER007 said:

qmotion said:

I'm just tryring to get you guys stirred up enough to say something. Most of the previous post were made in anticipation of getting the mods done. It appears that at least 100 mods have been made according to the numbers fo the various group buys. I just haven't heard much from you guys since the mods were done. What's ppuuurrrfect for one person may not be perfect for another. Can you be more specific in what made it perfect for you?

Click to expand...

Ok, I will take the bait. I have a 05 with a Wilbers 640 shock and the GP front fork rebuild. A couple of weeks ago I compared my 05 to a pretty new 06 (3500 miles). I thought the 06's ride and handling was every bit as good as mine as long as we were on smooth pavement and the suspension was using the low speed damping circuits. As soon as we rode over broken pavement and some serious bumps it was quite obvious to both of us which bike had the superior ride and handling.

Suspension mods are a bit more than changing springs although the springs are the most important component. All three components (spring rate, compression damping, and rebound damping) need to work together and if you change the spring rate without changing the damping you may not get the result you are looking for. Changing fork oil may not be the answer either because different fork oil will change both compression and rebound damping in the same direction when what you usually want to do after installing heavier springs is to decrease compression damping and increase rebound damping.

Does aftermarket suspension help that much? It really depends on the riding conditions since most of the improvements are going to be in the high speed damping circuits. If you mostly ride on smooth roads you may not notice that much difference although I think anyone normally carrying a load over 300 pounds will see a benefit on all road surfaces if they use a heavier shock spring.

Along those same lines, I think anyone who carries a 600 pound load on an FJR is missing the big picture. The manufactures gross vehicle weights and tire capacities are there for a reason and if you exceed those capacities by more than 10 percent you may be flirting with disaster.

It will be interesting to hear your experience following the "Dutch" lead. I thought the 06 I rode had too much high speed compression damping at both ends and it would seem that if you put a much larger spring on the stock shock without changing the damping then you are going to end up with too much high speed compression damping and not nearly enough rebound damping.

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The Wilber 640 shock doesn't have variable high and low speed compression. Only the Wilber 641 has that. The only thing that can be varied on that setup is the rebound damping. Nobody has variable high and low speed compression for the front forks. The owner of Technoflex was the actual originator and inventor of the high and low speed compression circuits for shocks. He is also the designer of the new Hyperpro 461 shock which is the new upgrade for the older stuff which includes the Wilber 640 series and the HyperPro type 41 thru 46. It will be interesting to find out what my results will be. Klaus will even do my install at no cost to test just how it works. If it works for me after a week or so of testing then I'll pay him for the hardware. If not I'll have the newest series of Hyperpro 461 installed on the rear and possibly go with the Traxxion AK-20 setup for my fronts.

When I ride solo, I'm well within the design perameters and GVW. Those scales only get tipped when my lady rides with me which is only 20% of the time at best. I'll be happy if I get things dialed in just right for me solo. My heavier weight is actually an advantage to having a better ride.

Klaus aka Wilber USA knows his stuff and is committed to excellent customer service. I don't think he deserve the bad rap that a few are trying to give them.

qmotion said:

The Wilber 640 shock doesn't have variable high and low speed compression. Only the Wilber 641 has that. The only thing that can be varied on that setup is the rebound damping. Nobody has variable high and low speed compression for the front forks.
I'll be happy if I get things dialed in just right for me solo. My heavier weight is actually an advantage to having a better ride.

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You are pretty good at twisting what I said and a prime example of someone who learns a little about a subject and thinks they are an expert. The Wilber 640 shock uses the same valve to adjust the low speed compression damping and rebound damping. If you don't believe me, ask Klaus. That adjustment will have a small impact on the high speed compression damping, but not nearly as much as revalving -- and that is why an aftermarket shock that is revalved correctly will outperform a stock shock that has a spring mod only.

Several of the top end sport bikes, including the 2007 GSXR 1000, have variable high and low speed compression on the front forks. Most don't and again, that is the reason that revalved front forks will outperform stock forks. If you want to spend the extra $$$ for the AK-20s, I am sure that Max will appreciate your business, but you can get the same result from GP Suspension. The only difference is that Traxxion charges you almost twice as much and gives you a new cartridge in each fork -- and I am not knocking Traxxion, I have their rear shock on my GL1800 and it is every bit as good as the Wilbers on the FJR. The Traxxion GL1800 shock doesn't have any damping adjustments and doesn't need them, it works on every road surface. The AK-20s (which are 20mm) are also great products, they just aren't necessary for a bike that has adequate cartridge forks to begin with. GP Suspension sells 25mm cartridge fork kits but doesn't recommend them for street bikes because they are "overkill" for anyone other than an expert racer. If you want to go with the AK-20s, then you should also buy the rear shock from Traxxion to ensure that both ends are balanced. It doesn't make any sense to use different companies to do the revalving if you want the results to compliment each other.

If you really think that heavier weight is an advantage to having a better ride then you should gain more weight or carry heavier luggage. There are several reasons the manufactures struggle to make their bikes as light as possible, but creating an inferior ride is not one of them.

qmotion said:

Actually I have more research info to share. The Netherland Police use FJR's for their police bikes. HyerPro is in the Netherlands and they service the Police Dept. HyperPro has a true progressive rate spring for the front forks as opossed to a dual rate spring. Extensive testing was done on the FJR by the Netherland Police Dept. and they found that re-valving the front forks didn't make that much a change in the handling characteristics. Having the proper spring rate did. They also found that the OEM shock that Yamaha uses is actually a superb shock as long as it's not worn out. I only have 6,300 miles on my bike and the shocks are fine. They have heavier custom springs that are made especially for them for the OEM shock and that system works fine.
SO.......... Klaus is ordering the progressive rate front fork springs and oil, a custom heavy duty spring to replace the OEM spring according to my weight requirements. The hardware cost less than $300. I'll see how that works out. At which time my factory shocks wear out then I'll consider the HyprPro 461 series as a replacement for the rear.

The setup that I'll use is vurtually the same that the Netherland Police Department uses. I'll let yall know how it works out in a couple weeks after everything comes in and is installed. It may be something to consider for us budget minded folks.

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Does the Netherland Police use a Yamaha Police Model FJR? HyperPro says they respring the normal factory shock on police model FJR's. I'm asking to try to determine exactly what they are using. FYI, I put in HyperPro fork springs last night and if I don't die of a heart attack, the resprung shock will go in tonight. It ain't plug and play on an 06.

MCRIDER007 said:

qmotion said:

The Wilber 640 shock doesn't have variable high and low speed compression. Only the Wilber 641 has that. The only thing that can be varied on that setup is the rebound damping. Nobody has variable high and low speed compression for the front forks.
I'll be happy if I get things dialed in just right for me solo. My heavier weight is actually an advantage to having a better ride.

Click to expand...

You are pretty good at twisting what I said and a prime example of someone who learns a little about a subject and thinks they are an expert. The Wilber 640 shock uses the same valve to adjust the low speed compression damping and rebound damping. If you don't believe me, ask Klaus. That adjustment will have a small impact on the high speed compression damping, but not nearly as much as revalving -- and that is why an aftermarket shock that is revalved correctly will outperform a stock shock that has a spring mod only.

If you really think that heavier weight is an advantage to having a better ride then you should gain more weight or carry heavier luggage. There are several reasons the manufactures struggle to make their bikes as light as possible, but creating an inferior ride is not one of them.

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Wow

The reason I started this post is because I'm far from being an expert on suspensions. I'm even far from being a novice. The purpose of this post and any other open forum is to learn and share information of interest to the parties involved. As a part of my learning process I did critique what you had stated. I checked the specs on the Wilber 640 shock that you stated you had merely to get a better understanding of what you were saying and the basis of what your experiences were.

By better ride I meant it in terms of comfort and not handling. Part of what makes touring bikes such as the Goldwing and various cruisers comfortable is tha fact that they have weight. Most luxury cars are heavier than sports cars. That directly attributes to the smooth ride but adversely affects the handling. I think that what makes the FJR special is that it nicely combines both perameters with little compromise to either.

I do not intend for the statements I make to be taken as expert opinion but taken as a reiteration of the facts as I attempt to understand them. In this process of me learning from a novice veiwpoint I do hope that I inspire constructive feedback and comments that will further assist me in learning and ultimately make a correct decision for myself based on the facts obtained.

I only stated the fact that there is no variable contol over the high and low speed compression on the Wilber 640 shock. That is not to say that when you ordered it and gave the weight requirements that Wilber did not vary the valving to customize it to the spring requirements and your needs. I did not intend to infer that you had misrepresented any facts that you stated. I think the facts as I see them is that both the OEM shock and the Wilber 640 don't have high speed damping circuits only low speed.

I do appreciate you comming back with further comments because you did shed more information that is valuable. I hope that others as well will share their experiences and opinions of the suspension mods they made as well.

Trust that I'm not trying to turn this post into a pissing contest but merely trying to learn as many facts as possible. I do understand that there is a science to suspenion systems that even involves the geometry of the chasis. Even the fact that the swingarm on the 2006 FJR being longer may cause a different adjustment to the valving since the swingarm effectively acts as a fulcrom. I'm not trying to get that technical. It's a little beyond my need to know. I just want to know what, how and why it works for you.

qmotion said:

By better ride I meant it in terms of comfort and not handling. Part of what makes touring bikes such as the Goldwing and various cruisers comfortable is tha fact that they have weight. Most luxury cars are heavier than sports cars. That directly attributes to the smooth ride but adversely affects the handling. I think that what makes the FJR special is that it nicely combines both perameters with little compromise to either.
Trust that I'm not trying to turn this post into a pissing contest but merely trying to learn as many facts as possible

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Fair enough but you have your facts mixed up about the relationship between weight and comfort level. Weight is great in a heavy crosswind but is a disadvantage everywhere else. A motorcycle's comfort level is going to be determined by the quality of its suspension, wheelbase, sitting position (very subjective), seat quality, and engine smoothless. Additional weight does not lead to more comfort unless the suspension is actually designed to carry that weight and the ride is harsh with a lessor weight. My GL1800, even after the Traxxion suspension upgrades, does not have as good of ride as the FJR unless the road surface is glass smooth and the speeds are over 75 mph (the Goldwings long wheelbase is a plus at higher speed). When the surface gets rough, the Goldwing's comfort level is compromised very quickly.

A Goldwing is great for riding double because of its physical size, not because of its weight. It would still have the same comfort level, maybe better, if it were the same size but weighed 200 pounds less. Why? Because the lighter the weight, the easier it is for the suspension to respond to changing road surfaces.

Just finished installing a HyperPro combi kit, that's fork and shock springs on an 06 FJR. I will be doing a test ride today. Anyone interested in doing the install you can PM for lessons learned.

sprint_st said:

Just finished installing a HyperPro combi kit, that's fork and shock springs on an 06 FJR. I will be doing a test ride today. Anyone interested in doing the install you can PM for lessons learned.

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I'm actually going to have Klaus at Wilber USA install mine. Let me know just how those front springs work out for you. I believe they are the infinate progressive springs they use. I'd have to check with Klaus to be certain.

MCRIDER007 said:

qmotion said:

By better ride I meant it in terms of comfort and not handling. Part of what makes touring bikes such as the Goldwing and various cruisers comfortable is tha fact that they have weight. Most luxury cars are heavier than sports cars. That directly attributes to the smooth ride but adversely affects the handling. I think that what makes the FJR special is that it nicely combines both perameters with little compromise to either.
Trust that I'm not trying to turn this post into a pissing contest but merely trying to learn as many facts as possible

Click to expand...

Fair enough but you have your facts mixed up about the relationship between weight and comfort level. Weight is great in a heavy crosswind but is a disadvantage everywhere else. A motorcycle's comfort level is going to be determined by the quality of its suspension, wheelbase, sitting position (very subjective), seat quality, and engine smoothless. Additional weight does not lead to more comfort unless the suspension is actually designed to carry that weight and the ride is harsh with a lessor weight. My GL1800, even after the Traxxion suspension upgrades, does not have as good of ride as the FJR unless the road surface is glass smooth and the speeds are over 75 mph (the Goldwings long wheelbase is a plus at higher speed). When the surface gets rough, the Goldwing's comfort level is compromised very quickly.

A Goldwing is great for riding double because of its physical size, not because of its weight. It would still have the same comfort level, maybe better, if it were the same size but weighed 200 pounds less. Why? Because the lighter the weight, the easier it is for the suspension to respond to changing road surfaces.

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We are actually drifting away from the purpose of this post. If your FJR rides smoother than your Goldwing then the Goldwing's suspension isn't set up right. Maybe you do need to change the rear shock to match the Traxxion front. What I'm attempting to do is have my FJR setup properly with my heavier weight considerations. Heavier vehicles ride more comfortably than lighter ones. It is assuming that the suspension is setup properly for which ever weight vehicle. A Greyhound bus with it's air suspension setup properly will ride better than a Rolls Royce. An aircraft carrier will ride smoother in the water than a speed boat or a 300 foot yacht. It is due to the heavier weight. What ever adverse forces you are dealing with have to first go against the weight of the vehicle. Heavier vehicles have greater resistance against turbulances and road imperfections or any outside forces that try to move or change the direction of such vehicle. PERIOD

qmotion said:

I'm actually going to have Klaus at Wilber USA install mine. Let me know just how those front springs work out for you. I believe they are the infinate progressive springs they use. I'd have to check with Klaus to be certain.

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You are right that the HyperPro's are infinitely progressive between a max and min spring rate. Install of the fork springs is very easy and it achieved what I was looking for. That being a smoothing out, or removal of harsh bump reactions. I have my forks set for a harder ride and with the stocks that means a sharp bang kind of response to lots of surface irregularities. Yeah, you can try playing with the adjustments but they just did not do much if anything for that situation. Slide in the HyperPro's and the front end is much smoother. Do you lose something in how they handle in the twisties? Not that I can see. I don't see any improvement in that department either but the stocks worked ok there for me. As far as the shock goes, the ABS stuff on the right side make shock removal much more of a pain than it should be. A bit of elevated blood pressure and language not meant for minors and it turned out OK. The spring exchange requires someone with spring changing experience because there is no guarantee that the spring compressor you have will work, mine did not. A KTM dirt bike shop had the equipment and the experience to get it done for $25. So far I don't see much of a change from the shock set on high for two reasons: the shock was new and working well on the hard setting. I'm just hoping that the spring will make the shock last longer before I need to buy a high priced replacement. A summary for the effects of the install is that before when I hit a major surface irregularity the bike had a harsh reaction which could be felt in the arms and butt, that's gone without any sacrifice anywhere else.

qmotion said:

When I ride solo, I'm well within the design perameters and GVW. Those scales only get tipped when my lady rides with me which is only 20% of the time at best. I'll be happy if I get things dialed in just right for me solo. My heavier weight is actually an advantage to having a better ride.

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Respectfully, for more than one reason you two should consider a weight loss program. it would be terrible if you had a bike failure because your total GVWwas exceeded. not to mention, your own personal health

Kevin Daly said:

qmotion said:

When I ride solo, I'm well within the design perameters and GVW. Those scales only get tipped when my lady rides with me which is only 20% of the time at best. I'll be happy if I get things dialed in just right for me solo. My heavier weight is actually an advantage to having a better ride.

Click to expand...

Respectfully, for more than one reason you two should consider a weight loss program. it would be terrible if you had a bike failure because your total GVWwas exceeded. not to mention, your own personal health

Click to expand...

Now don't hold back there Kev..just say it like it is.

You may well be right but that's pretty harsh.

Had a good giggle though.