KrZy8 start n' stop

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dcarver

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Twice now, over 3 weeks... ignition on, gauges sweep, fuel pump pumps. Starter spins nicely. Engine catches, runs for maybe .5 to 1 second, then dies.

Replaced battery.

Again this morning.. but with new battery, after 5 or 6 times it fired and ran great.

Any ideas?

TIA

dcarver

 
Starting in gear or in neutral?

Clutch pulled or not?

Side stand up or down?

Did display blank out during cranking?

Any diagnostic codes thrown?

A bit more info, please.

 
Hey Don you are not getting much help are you? Don't expect any from me.
punk.gif


 
Starting in gear or in neutral? Neutral
Clutch pulled or not? Not pulled in
Side stand up or down? Side stand up - on center stand
Did display blank out during cranking? No. No clock reset. >9 vdc on radar detector
Any diagnostic codes thrown? No codes thrown.

A bit more info, please.

Probably not gas.. many tanks have been used in between symptoms. hmmm.. Maybe the same station with bad tanks?

 
Doesn't sound like gas to me. Since you are starting in neutral, there is no issue with sidestand or clutch interlocks. Panel didn't reset so battery is unlikely to be the problem. I would still probably make sure that the battery terminals are tight. Hopefully the fuel pump is OK. Might be worth checking to make sure that the plug is tight and not corroded.

The only other thing I can think of is the possibility of a glitch in the kill switch. I would at least cycle it a few times; maybe take it apart and clean it up. Also make sure that the plug to the ECU is seated properly and there is no corrosion or dirt in it.

Good luck!

 
Do diagnostic codes auto show on the display if thrown or does one have to go looking? I assume that the code would show on the display automagically?

Fuel pp is original..

ECU connector.. good idea and kill switch too. I know that my ecu connector no longe

r has rubber gasket...

 
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Does the Gen 2 have the same type of "Big White Plug" under the tank? To me it kind of sounds like a intermittent spark issue. My spark was really week and my fan wasn't work quite right, So after studying the schematics, I found that plug, cleaned each prong and greased it up, and VIOLA! Fan worked and spark was "Strong Like Bull!"

But, not sure if this applies to Gen 2

(I am not an actual Lawyer, but a paid spokesman/client...)

Carl

 
"Does the Gen 2 have the same type of "Big White Plug" under the tank?"

It has something like it up front, connecting the main harness to the faring sub harness. It locates behind the radiator filler cap. There's another spot to check on the '06 and '07 bikes, the multi relay block under/between the headlights. An intermittent connection can cause grief. Yamaha, in it's infinite wisdom, cheapened out on us and did not use a sealed connector at that spot - check for oxidation on the pins.

Good luck, happy hunting!

Brodie

rolleyes.gif


 
Almost a no start leaving work. Hmm, sure runs strong after it starts though. How strong? Strong as ever. Full pull to redline, 1st to 2nd wheelie, yep, no problem with FI or fuel delivery, compression. She runs hard.

So then, well, I 'fixed' it. Now it won't even turn over the starter motor. How did I fix it?

Simple. Stress test.

Start, kill, start, kill, start, kill.

I've been thinking the starter has been a tad bit slower than normal.. not much, just a bit. Kinda like a gen 1 cranking. And that when releasing the start button things were a tad off, but not sure what.

So, additional stress test.

Left the starter button on just a bit after cranking and starting.. like maybe .2 seconds. And the engine instantly died.

Now, hitting the start button I can hear the 'Brodie Relay' click in.. and the fuel pp, but no starter noise or action. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Ground at engine case is good.

Me thinks the BR is bad. And I just happen to have another one handy.
punk.gif


...but that will be for later, had to get Wabs ready for work action tomorrow.

KrZy8 can sit while Wabs get the nod.

Relief hitter to the plate please!

Edit - no diagnostic codes either.

Edit Edit - By NOOOOOO way does this post infer that Brodie's work on the ignition switch relay harness is faulty. That relay has been in-service, under the tank, on top of the valve cover (hot n' hostile environment) for over, well, what now.. 3 years?) And all this is ASSuming it's the relay. Just wanted to be sure no thinks I'm flaming my good bud 'B.
punk.gif


 
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Ignition switch has two circuits that have to stay connected. One is the full current draw of the ignition system, and the other connects the output of the sidestand/neutral monitor of the starter interlock to the ECU. If that circuit interrupts, the bike dies, just as if the sidestand were put down in gear.. On my Gen-I, if you crank with that circuit interrupted, you get a code 19, but it doesn't set a code just by being disconnected; only when cranking disconnected.

That's not the one that usually goes bad, because it has a VERY low electrical load. Still, it can fail, as it has on my bike. I don't think it's bypassed by the Brodie kit, but I'm not sure.

That second side of the ignition switch will kill the bike without throwing any codes. It only throws a code if it's disconnected while cranking. (And it WILL crank if disconnected, because the switch is behind all the starter interlock stuff, which has already given its OK.) So check it out, There are two connectors from the ignition switch. Disconnect them both. Put an ohmmeter across the one with the little wires. Turn the key on. Should have continuity. Wiggle the key without turning it off. Should not see the continuity flicker any. If you see it drop and come back, you've got a crummy connection in the key switch.

I still haven't worked out in my mind why that line needs to be interrupted by the ignition switch. It's not a safety thing, that's all handled by the sidestand and other interlocks. Maybe the connected ground would set up a current drain in the ECU that can kill the battery.

 
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KrZy8 IS throwing error codes... my bad for not fully reading the manual. I thought it would throw codes on the LCD panel when key switch was activated.

Diagnostic test 61, it indicates error codes 12, 19, 21, 22.

I think Brodie and wfooshee are on the right track.

wfooshee, mine won't crank at all. I hear the Brodie relay click, healthily as in CLICK but that's it.

I did notice that my left button on the LCD display wasn't working. Lifted all negative battery leads, let sit for a minute or so, then reconnected. Still no left button action (trip meter 1,2, etc). Cycled all other switches (turn signal, emergency, brake front and rear) and all work. But still no left button.

Then, moved the windscreen up... and suddenly the left LCD button was active again.

I think my next step is pull the lower cowling and see if I can find the connector Brodie referenced. I hope it's not under the nose.. I haven't had that piece off yet.

Gotta go. I have only 1 hour 50 minutes of spare time M-Wed then need to clean up, get sleep, prepare for the work day.

Thank you all for the help!

dCarver n' KrZy8

ps KrZy8 is real close to 200k. She needs to run again!

dCarver

 
KISS

Keep it Simple, Stupid.

  • Wiggled wires around the OEM starter relay.. primary and secondary wires.. Hey, the starter made noise! Ok, a clue.
  • Jumped across the starter relay. Starter makes noise. Good stuff.
  • Removed OEM starter relay. Bench test SAT. Closing primary = CLACK. Infinite ohms on secondary de-energized. 0.00 ohms energized. Looking good.
  • Cleaned the terminals on the OEM starter relay,
  • Cleaned the three wire connection to the primary of the OEM starter relay. Not sure what the 30 amp fuse feeds...
  • Checked the 30 amp fuse on OEM starter relay, SAT
  • Check unloaded battery voltage = 12.9 VDC. Not great, but ok.
  • Re-install, bike starts! WooHoo!
.. but not all the time, not 100%. Always starts the second time the start button is depressed if fails on first try. Hmm. Think of good ideas from Ross and WooFoo from this post.

  • run a bunch of LPS1 down into the key switch
  • ditto LPS1 into the start/stop switch
Hey! It's getting better
smile.png
The starter is now sounding like a Gen2 starter, not a Gen1 starter. No offense Gen 1 guys. But it is really fast compared to before. Current is hitting the motor.


But only 80% of the time.

  • More LPS1 into main keyswitch, and stop/start switch
  • Cycle each a 1.275 bazillion times
  • Put trickle charger on battery, walk away, as unloaded battery is now a meager 12.7 volts
Come back 30 minutes later..

10 out of 10 starts!

I'm still not confident though, just ran out of time.

Several things still bug me -

  • Earlier, the Trip odometer did not work e.g. left hand button on control panel until I moved the windshield - wiring?
  • Still not 100% starting, about 1 in 20 it fails and throws error code 12
  • Supposedly, when entering Diagnostic mode you can get two options - Diagnostic or CO2, IIRC, I don't see CO2.
Yet - when running, she sounds sweet. No problems at all. Purrs and growls as needed.

Next steps -

  • Clean contacts at ECU. My rubber gasket at connector puked about 3 years ago.. I might have corrosion
  • Let battery fully charge (many starts/kill/start tonight) and see how she does later
  • Buy a KTM and put KrZy8 engine into the baddest off road cart you've ever seen!
.. TBC

 
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