Speedo / Tacho Malfunction

Howya All,

I put the first part of this appeal in the newcomer section last night. Two members spotted it and offered reasurance that help might be forthcoming. I've just moved it here as it seems more appropriate.

I've hunted this forum and my own (FJ/FJR UK) for help on a problem with my 2002 FJR. The LCD displays heat, time and fuel amount but the odo is not displaying numbers (just ----). The speedo and tacho sit at zero. All the fuses are good. I've pulled the ECU and display connetors and sprayed with WD40 to no avail. Using the service manual test diagnostic code 07 and spinning the back wheel gives a reading up to 999 and then starting from 0 upwards again. On 'switch on' the pointers on speedo and tacho both swing upscale as normal and the odo displays all the 8's. This suggests that the dash is probably OK and that the speed sensor is talking to the ECU. I've disconnected the battery for 10 minutes to force a reset to no avail. Is the milage (trip) data stored in the dash panel or in the ECU? Any ideas? (No crash or incident - just didn't function - Bike still drives normally sans these functions.)

I tried some more tests today. The dash connector has 12 connections. Six of these feed into the LCD; the rest are from high beam, indicators etc. I checked for 12 volts at the R/W – feed from ignition fuse – good.

The R/G from the back-up fuse also has 12 volts (12.4) and is good. The B/W is an earth (ground) and reads 0.2Ω from its terminal to the battery negative terminal; good.

Two cables connect the ECU and the dash; the B/W and Y/Lbu. I got 0.2Ω from dash connector to the ECU on both of these cables. OK.

These, plus the previous tests suggest that the ECU signal is either not being generated internally or not being decoded in the dash? How do I test ECU signal?

I don't know how to test it, but I know that the ECU signal to the meter set is not something you can do with a volt-ohm meter.

Secondly, I would not use WD-40 as an electrical contact cleaner. I would be worried about degradation of the plastics in the connectors.

Other than that, I don't have much to offer. Sorry.

The folks who had their instrument clusters replaced under warranty for the early Gen II bikes got new odometers in the new instrument clusters with the odometer set to zero, so on those bikes I have to believe that the mileage is stored in the gauge and not the ECU. It is probably the same for your Gen I bike.

OK, three pieces of information now presented have convinced me that the problem is most likely in the dash. I used the WD40 in case any water had gotten into the connectors, although there was no evidence of ingress. I'll pull out the dash tomorrow and check the circuit board for cracks etc. I've got a great description of 'cowl removal' from another thread (thanks already for that).

-2 Degrees C in the shed. I'd go on strike if I was working for someone else.

However, it took about two hours to remove the headlamp/front cowl assembly and leave it sitting on a blanketed front mudguard.

Just finished removing and opening the dash consol. Used magnifier to examine all the tracks on the circuit board, especially to the stepper motors for the needles. Looks perfect. Needles are free to move without binding so they are ok. It was suggested that I check the operation of the select and reset buttons (double-pole, normally open) and these are fine.

Anyone got a schematic for this dash or anything similar?

No schematic for the meter assembly, Yamaha expects you to replace it as a unit. The actual mileage is stored in the meter assembly. The ECU sends serial information to the meter assembly, that is, all the data is sent on one wire in groups of digital bits. The meter assembly decodes the information in two parts, the first part goes to an address decoder that tells the meter which device is to receive the information, followed by the actual data. Each item in the meter assembly has a unique address to which the ECU will send data.

The main items on your dash seem to pass the POST test as evidenced by the gauges sweeping. At this time it sure sounds like your problem in in the meter assembly.

One thing that concerns me is that the meter assembly has a self diagnostic mode and has its own set of error codes that are supposed to show if there is a problem with communications between the meter and the ECU. These error codes are supposed to display on the clock display. You should be seeing one of the following:

Err-1 = No signals received from ECU

Err-2 = No signals received from ECU in specified duration (has to do with the serial data flow)

Err-3 = Data from the ECU cannot be received correctly

Err-4 = Non-registered data has been received from the meter

If you don't have one of these error codes showing 1) there is no communication error and the meter assembly is bad 2) The meter assembly is bad and cannot display error codes correctly 3) there is a communications error but the meter assembly can not display the error because the meter assembly is bad. It sure points to the meter assembly being bad.

I need to go back and re-read your opening post about which displays are working and which are not. I believe that most of the items that are working are internal to the meter assembly. The tach and speedo info comes from the ECU, but if there was a communication error the clock should be showing an error code. The odometer can't work without speedo information. It sounds like there may be a bad address decoder.

I don't know if that settles anything but it moves the available information forward. Good luck!

OK Ionbeam, you’ve filled me in perfectly on the nature of the data transfer and how it’s allocated to the odo, speedo and tacho and I now understand the multiplex concept. Many thanks for that.

The LCD is showing temperature, time and fuel but not the three related to the speed sensor. I don’t have the Err signals nor do I have any fault code on the display (not even in the fault memory).

A fellow biker has suggested that an eprom problem may be the fault. He is currently trying to find the FJR data code set to download into the dash to see if it’s an ‘Alzheimer’s’ problem in the dash electronics.

I have access to an oscilloscope so do you have any idea of the frequency and voltage of the signals from the ECU. I could try to ‘scope these whilst ‘Wheelie Boy’ is searching for the reprogramming information?

Post deleted - next time, think first and post second!

OOPS

Puddingbowl said:

...A fellow biker has suggested that an eprom problem may be the fault. He is currently trying to find the FJR data code set to download into the dash...I have access to an oscilloscope so do you have any idea of the frequency and voltage of the signals from the ECU...

Click to expand...

Puddin', I think you should begin a parallel effort and start looking for a new ($ $ $) or used meter assembly.

I had my meter assembly out on my work bench a couple of months ago but didn't pull off the gauges or LCD assembly to check out the electronics. For the benefit of others, here is what the back side of the meter assembly looks like, there are no active components on this side. This is all you need to access to change the meter assembly bulbs.

Pixs by Ignacio



To get access to the active IC's a lot has to come off the front side of the board, my meter assembly worked so I didn't phuck with it.



If you check out the serial signal from the ECU with an oscilloscope all you will see are packets of data bits, the frequency of the packets must be good or you would have an er- code. The bits in the data packets would be essentially useless to you unless they are all 0's, all 1's or 1/2 VCC. Any of these three conditions would also set an er- code.

If I were to take a wild guess, and this is all it is, my guess is that Yamaha has used a small RISC signal processing chip to run everything. You can get dedicated signal processing chips that contain the computer, communications, EPROM (or equivalent) A/D and D/A converters and bi-directional data pins. Sending software to the internal memory usually requires a special programmer. In the 80's all of this would have been done using a handful of discrete components but these days it is easy to get automotive grade processing chips that do it all. If the EPROM does indeed turn out to be a separate device, most EPROM burners can copy a good device and burn it into blank EPROMs. I would be shocked if your friend was able to find software (data code set) for the meter assembly, Yamaha doesn't make the ECU coding available so I can't see the meter assembly being any different.

Since the problem seems to be related to the two servo circuits and the associated odometer you can check for burned or damaged components like resistors and caps. The servos themselves have to be good if the gauges sweep.

My head hurts!!!

RadioHowie said:

My head hurts!!!

Click to expand...

Puddin' started it by sounding literate and competent. We were just missing the proper warning:



So here we are, no sheep were abused, no manatees were molested and until now no thread was hijacked, only technical information was discussed -- it's enough to make you

Sorry about the cranium detonation lads. Some very gory images presented.

Just to explain a little; I have 11 bikes including 2 VF65 Honda Magnas and a 2008 FJR – So I’m not stuck for a ride! I like to know how things work (and why they don’t as in this case). I’ll give up when I’ve exhausted my knowledge and the new stuff I’m learning to fault-find the dash. Life-long-learning; at 60 this old dog is still able to learn new tricks.

From Alan’s post I’m wondering if it’s possible to copy the 2008 dash software and dump it into the 2002?

If the 2002 has to be scrapped I’ll have had some fun? and learned a lot in the process. So many thanks for all the suggestions to date; I’m not finished just yet!

I have had a couple of V65s pass through my garage, I got real good at the lock-nut valve adjustments and learned the cosmic secrets for getting the carb boots on and off (I believe Honda called them Heat Isolators). Have you checked the stator wire connector on those beasts? It is almost certain that they will fry, if not today, then tomorrow.

You can not use a second generation (Gen II) FJR for the software source, it must come from a Gen I (2002 - 2005). Everything is different between the two.

If you do a postmortem on your dash I would be interested in pixs!

Thanks Ionbeam,

That mind-melt idea with the '08 is a cul-de-sac so.

Yes, I soldered up the 3 phase outputs and ditched the connector - brilliant bike though; I actually find it more comfortable than the FJR! Hence I made and fitted risers to both Yamahas.

Removed main earth connection to engine bolt - looks good - electrolubed and reinstated it. Tried to scope the output of the speed sensor but was unsuccessful. Two electronics bods looked at PCB of dash but couldn't do anything other than visual inspection without circuit schematic.

With all the fairings off I pulled every connector I could find apart on the loom for the sake of it - all looked fine. Re-verified signal from rear wheel via diagnostic code 07; hadn't made it worse anyway - still OK.

'I'm gonna sit right down and write myself a letter....' or 'First we'll take Manhatten'; a jam (or Marmalade, remember them?) on the SG and a reflection on progress tonight. Enjoyed the challenge today but tomorrow is Saturday, maybe time to search for a spare consol?

Puddingbowl said:

...That mind-melt idea with the '08 is a cul-de-sac so...a jam (or Marmalade, remember them?...maybe time to search for a spare consol?

Click to expand...

Most likely the surest way and the fastest way to resolve your problem will be a replacement meter assembly. The only down side will be an incorrect odometer reading.

My wife and I put roughly 150k miles on the two V65s. I miss the low end power on my FJR, just popping the throttle open on my VF1100S would lift the front wheel starting at 3k rpm.

My wife's family is from the UK, so our household comes to a stop every afternoon for tea. It's scones, usually with Chivers Orange Marmalade and a good quality tea.

Danger follows --



To measure the VSS signal safely you need to have your 'scope setup correctly. The sensor receives a precision reference voltage from the ECU and has an isolated ground that is associated with the reference voltage. The VSS reads the teeth on the middle gear; a fair guess is the middle gear has 48 teeth; at an idle speed of 1,000 rpm that would be 48,000 pulses per minute or 800 pulses per second or 1.25 milliseconds per tooth. Take your 'scope's AC power cord and put on a 3 pin to 2 pin adapter so that the scope is isolated from ground (earth). Using a X10 scope probe connect the probe to the signal wire (white/black) and clip the scope probe's ground to the reference ground for the VSS sensor (black/blue wire). You can not use chassis or battery ground to make this measurement. If your scope is connected to earth (AC ground) you have two unrelated ground systems and won't be able to make a measurement. If you leave your scope connected to earth and then clip the scope probe's ground wire to the black/blue (ground) wire of the sensor you are effectively joining the two different ground systems together and Bad Things may happen to the ECU. Because the VSS signal has very low drive I recommend a X10 probe.

While yer all gettin off on yer 'scope...

Time fer a good hijack.

Can ya titillate the rest of us talkin bout scones, Chivers, Orange Marmalade and tea?

Got any pics?

rushes said:

Can ya titillate the rest of us talkin bout scones, Chivers, Orange Marmalade and tea?

Got any pics?

Click to expand...

[Hi Jack, err, Hijack]

Tea time: At 4:00 everyday the world stops turning and all other activity is deferred to a later time. This tea is different than High Tea which is served later and is more substantive and then followed by a late dinner.

Scones are first cousins to biscuits and are often referred to as such. There are too many recipes to say which is classic but usually the differences between a scone and a biscuit are that the scone contains an egg and butter is substituted for shortening or lard. Some recipes also ask for sugar. When in the Devon and Cornwall area it is often served with clotted cream. Clotted cream is raw, whole milk which has been placed in shallow pans and then heated. The cream forms clots and rises to the surface and then it is allowed to cool. It has a nutty, rich sweet flavor. Clotted cream is used to make Thunder and Lighting too but that leads us to treacle, which suitable for another hijack. Light sandwiches with cucumber, cress, eggs or smoked salmon can be served in place of scones.

Chivers Olde (with an e) English Orange Marmalade isn't suitable for American tastes. Chivers is a thick cut marmalade, it contains a large amount of orange slivers. Most notably, it is not sweet. Um, that doesn't really cover it, it is actually un-sweet, as in bitter but has a deep orange flavor. Other jams like strawberry are allowed, my wife's extended family are Chivers lovers.

Proper tea us usually an Indian tea like a Darjeeling which is a light and bright tea. Sometimes it's a Ceylon Tea but these are heavier. Tea: Pour boiling water into a nice china tea pot, dump the loose tea leaves right into the tea pot. Put a cozy over the pot and let it steep. At home the tea is poured into cups with the tea leafs still in the tea, when bohemians Americans come to tea the tea is poured through a fancy gimbal mounted tea strainer which catches its own drips. The tea that my wife's family drinks is always served with milk.

When possible, table and chairs are set in the garden and tea is served. It is a nice tranquil interlude with family and friends and is never a raucous event.

Pictures would be classless.

[/hijack]

ionbeam said:

rushes said:

Can ya titillate the rest of us talkin bout scones, Chivers, Orange Marmalade and tea?

Got any pics?

Click to expand...

[Hi Jack, err, Hijack]

Tea time: At 4:00 everyday the world stops turning and all other activity is deferred to a later time.

Scones are first cousins to biscuits and are often referred to as such. There are too many recipes to say which is classic but usually the differences between a scone and a biscuit are that the scone contains an egg and butter is substituted for shortening or lard. Some recipes also ask for sugar. When in the Devon and Cornwall area it is often served with clotted cream. Clotted cream is raw, whole milk which has been placed in shallow pans and then heated. The cream forms clots and rises to the surface and then it is allowed to cool. It has a nutty, rich sweet flavor. Clotted cream is used to make Thunder and Lighting too but that leads us to treacle, which suitable for another hijack.

Chivers Olde (with an e) English Orange Marmalade isn't suitable for American tastes. Chivers is a thick cut marmalade, it contains a large amount of orange slivers. Most notably, it is not sweet. Um, that doesn't really cover it, it is actually un-sweet, as in bitter but has a deep orange flavor.

Proper tea us usually an Indian tea like a Darjeeling which is a light and bright tea. Sometimes it's a Ceylon Tea but these are heavier. Tea: Pour boiling water into a nice china tea pot, dump the tea leaves right into the tea pot. Put a cozy over the pot and let it steep. At home the tea is poured into cups with the tea leafs still in the tea, when bohemians Americans come to tea the tea is poured through a fancy gimbal mounted tea strainer which catches its own drips. The tea that my wife's family drinks is always served with milk.

When possible, table and chairs are set in the garden and tea is served. It is a nice tranquil interlude with family and friends and is never a raucous event.

Pictures would be classless.

[/hijack]

Click to expand...

It sounds wonderful.

I need some tranquility in my life. I may try it...

Thanks.