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Is this ticking?


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#1 awitowsk

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 02:43 PM

Its an 03 with 25k miles.

Does it sound like exhaust valve ticking? Hopefully I am just reading too much, but it has me worried. I have listened to the audio clips online. This is the only FJR I have ridden so I am not sure what they sound like in person. Anyone that has heard it first hand have an opinion?


(I am not sure how to insert it into the thread. I posted 3 videos on photobucket here are the links.)


Thanks guys.

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#2 Ignacio

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:15 PM

Sounds like cam chain tensioner to me and not the metallic "steak knife dropped on a metal table" sound of the dreaded tick.

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#3 Warchild

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:28 PM

Guarantee you that is NOT the classic Ticking issue that plagued a number of Gen I bikes.

I concur with Iggy's assessment.... suspect a new cam chain tensioner is in your future.

But it is not a "Ticker". So breathe easy. wink.gif

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#4 awitowsk

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:49 PM

Thanks guys, that's a huge relief. Warchild I read your files on the ticking, thanks for the quick response. I have only had the bike a few weeks, and am still getting used to it.

The noise is very noticeable to me from idle to 3k in the first 4 gears. After that the engine/road noise seems to drown it out. It increases pace accordingly with RPMs. While riding the noise sounds to me like header/exhaust leaks I have heard on cars before. It seems to me the noise has gotten more noticeable the last couple weeks, but I could be crazy. I will search the cam chain tensioner.

#5 awitowsk

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 06:33 PM

I think I have read over just about all the threads on the cam chain and tensioner. From the good to the very bad.

Everyone seems to mention the cam chain noise just at idle. If the tensioner is the culprit would the chain still be slack and making noise as the rpms increase? I am asking since the noise is still there at 3500rpm.

I read mixed opinions on the tensioner adjusting when the engine is under heavy load and slack develops on the tensioner side of the cam chain. Any truth to this?

I also read about going through the frame to manually adjust the spring. Is it worth tightening it, loosening, and let itself readjust?

The previous owner said he just changed to synthetic for the first time about 3k ago now. Could this have anything to do with it?

Thanks again guys.



#6 dcarver

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 06:49 PM

For what it's worth..
very little...
At 35k on my 06 I had weird intermittent metallic sounds. Wasn't worried about the 'tick' but was worried about shredding the top end.
Replaced the tensioner, and have not heard the weird sound since.

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#7 JoshHefnerX

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:00 PM

Dude, you just need to take the BB's out of your oil pan! biggrin.gif

#8 Fred W

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:19 PM

However, don't delay in fixing your noise.

If it is the tensioner and it gets bad enough to skip a tooth, the devastation is considerably worse than a ticker.


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#9 mattster31

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 01:54 PM

It sounds like it has a cold rolleyes.gif ..........Like you, I thought mine had the tick. Thankfully it doesn't, and so far the cam chain thingy is quiet as well. Get that repaired ASAP!!
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#10 awitowsk

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:50 PM

Yeah, I read that horror story about the timing. I parked it until I get it figured out, can't work on it until this weekend. I tried the crazy post I read about opening it up to help the tensioner adjust. All it did was prove that with an open helmet and earplugs out the sound is audible to 7k, not 3500. Been riding my zx12r the last couple days, glad I didn't sell it yet, had forgotten how different it is.

This weekend I am going to try sneaking the bolt covering the adjuster out and fiddling with it a bit to see if it does anything -- If so I know its the tensioner.

I am also thinking of changing the oil this weekend. Luckily I ordered some filters when I ordered my vstrom handguards (which I have a question on once I get the ticking figured out) Without a huge debate, are there any oil suggestions with the tensioner/cam chain in mind that may make any difference?

#11 Fred W

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 05:12 AM

QUOTE (awitowsk @ Dec 3 2008, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I read that horror story about the timing. I parked it until I get it figured out, can't work on it until this weekend. I tried the crazy post I read about opening it up to help the tensioner adjust. All it did was prove that with an open helmet and earplugs out the sound is audible to 7k, not 3500. Been riding my zx12r the last couple days, glad I didn't sell it yet, had forgotten how different it is.

This weekend I am going to try sneaking the bolt covering the adjuster out and fiddling with it a bit to see if it does anything -- If so I know its the tensioner.

I am also thinking of changing the oil this weekend. Luckily I ordered some filters when I ordered my vstrom handguards (which I have a question on once I get the ticking figured out) Without a huge debate, are there any suggestions with the tensioner/cam chain in mind that may make any difference?


Just be aware that Ionbeam's chain jumped ship right after he was fiddling with the tensioner. If it were mine, for the price of a tensioner, I'd probably just replace it.

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#12 awitowsk

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 07:14 PM

QUOTE
Just be aware that Ionbeam's chain jumped ship right after he was fiddling with the tensioner. If it were mine, for the price of a tensioner, I'd probably just replace it.


I understand.

I noticed you have posted a couple times before about the tensioner and how it works. If I turn the adjuster counter clockwise it would have to tighten the chain, right? I would like to verify the tensioner is the problem.


I have read over http://www.fjr1300.i...o/valveadj.html and downloaded the manual. If I am not messing with the valves right now is there any reason to remove the tank and valve cover? Can it be done by just removing the fairing and timing cover?

#13 Fred W

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 08:09 AM

QUOTE (awitowsk @ Dec 4 2008, 10:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Just be aware that Ionbeam's chain jumped ship right after he was fiddling with the tensioner. If it were mine, for the price of a tensioner, I'd probably just replace it.


I understand.

I noticed you have posted a couple times before about the tensioner and how it works. If I turn the adjuster counter clockwise it would have to tighten the chain, right? I would like to verify the tensioner is the problem.


I have read over http://www.fjr1300.i...o/valveadj.html and downloaded the manual. If I am not messing with the valves right now is there any reason to remove the tank and valve cover? Can it be done by just removing the fairing and timing cover?



I have not yet actually had the "opportunity" to mess around with my FJR's Cam Chain Tensioner. But I believe that the tensioner is strictly a spring loaded affair, with no real way to increase or adjust the tension. Here is a page from the FJR1300 Orientation guide that shows a cut-away cross section view of the tensioner.

Camchain Diagram

And here is an excerpt from the FSM on "checking" the tensioner that gives some clues as to how it works.

Checking Tensioner

I'll try and ping "Ionbeam" to weigh in. He has the most experience with the chain tensioner of anyone I know.



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#14 ionbeam

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 10:38 AM

awitowsk, find a metal rod or long screwdriver, put one end on the engine in the area where you are hearing the noise then put your ear on the metal tool. You will be amazed at what you can hear. By going around the engine, including putting the rod on the exhaust headers you should have a really good idea of what the noise is. You will be able to hear the valves actuating, cams turning, cam chain and all the rotational parts associated with the crank shaft. If you have a ticker you will almost certainly hear it with the rod on the exhaust headers. There is room to get the rod on the headers, right at the cylinder head without removing any plastic.

Turning the cam chain tensioner CLOCKWISE pulls the plunger in. If the plunger isn't fully pulled in, it will release again when you take the screwdriver out. If the plunger is turned all the way in (clockwise), turn it COUNTER CLOCKWISE (British = Anti-Clockwise) to release the plunger. I highly recommend that no matter what, you finish by lightly turning the screw in the cam chain tensioner COUNTER CLOCKWISE with a screwdriver to ensure there is no hang-up when the plunger extends. All CW and CCW directions are from viewing the screwdriver hole, while looking toward the front of the bike.

The plunger extends in one direction by means of a spiral shaft inside the plunger, it is not a notched shaft. The problem with my tensioner was non-linear spring tension. With the plunger nearly fully retracted there is strong spring tension but by the time the plunger is ~1/2 way out there was almost no tension. The plunger's normal position is ~1/2 way extended when everything is new. It is a pretty sure bet that there wasn't enough spring tension to take up the chain slack when I released my CCT.

The CCT is held in by two bolts, one is easy to get to, the other is a real pain. We will find out how comprehensive your tool collection is wink.gif You will probably want to remove your tank just to get it out of the way, but there is no need to open the valve cover. Be sure to install the new CCT with the arrow up.

ahamlin01 has gone through several CCTs, the last time he replaced his CCT he kindly mailed it to me so I could do an autopsy on it and compare it to my failed CCT. The spring tension on his CCT was significantly stronger than my failed CCT and the spring tension was more uniform through out the travel. The following is part of a letter that I sent to ahamlin01 after comparing parts. Because we have had the little blighter in our hands it is easier for us to envision how the parts fit together.

============================

Your CCT has *a lot more* spring force than my CCT has. That is a genuine scientific measurement wink.gif Still, I am unimpressed with the spring force provided. Your CCT has the same wear marks, extension, rod stability, spiral shaft condition and static spring characteristics as mine. The spring tension of your CCT does not fall off dramatically the way my failed CCT does.

Here is an interesting discovery, the spring in the CCT is not in compression, it is wound up like a clock when the CCT is assembled. The following really needs pixs to save a lot of words, I will try to get the pixs fairly soon.

The CCT rectangular rod goes through an end cap that is retained by a circlip. The end cap has 4 tabs, with one tab wider than the others to align the rod within the CCT body. When putting the CCT together the rod has to be fully extended making it too long to let the end cap tabs reach down into the slots in the CCT body. As you turn the tensioner screw to retract the rod it winds up the spring. As the rod shortens it lets the end cap tabs engage the slots with enough room for the circlip to slip into the ring groove. Depending on how I hold the rod and how deeply the spiral shaft is initially engaged into the center of the rod, the spring tension can go from almost nothing to very strong after the circlip is installed. The key point here is that this assembly operation is variable and has a direct relationship to the final spring force of the CCT. During assembly, one turn + or - of the tensioner screw makes a significant difference in the final spring force. Two full turns is like night and day in spring force. Because the end cap can only fit one way it forces the tensioner screw to complete a full 360 degree rotation between end cap tab engagements. How far the spiral shaft was initially engaged onto the rod will determine the actual number of turns of the screw before the circlip can be installed which determines final spring force.

The Engineering part of me wants to believe that there is a minimum and maximum spring force specification that falls within one full turn of the retraction screw. The Manufacturing Engineer in me wants to believe they have a fixture which will always results in a consistent number of turns before the circlip goes on. The Quality part of me wants to believe that all the CCTs are tested to verify conformance. The realist in me acknowledges that most likely there is no assembly jig and the CCTs are only audited, not 100% tested glare.gif

The cam chain slipper that the CCT presses against is pinned at the bottom end (near the crank gear) and is tensioned by the CCT's rod, contacting the slipper about 4/5ths of the way to the top resulting in good mechanical advantage. If the CCT were too forceful the chain slippers would have excessive wear which apparently no one has seen. If the CCT is not forceful enough... I don't want to go there wink.gif
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#15 awitowsk

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 05:06 PM

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge guys. I appreciate it.


I tried using both a piece of wood and metal rod as a stethoscope. You are absolutely right, its amazing how well the little ticks and clicks are picked up, but I still couldn't pinpoint the sound. It just seemed to be a different frequency or beat than the ticking noise.

So...being pretty sure it is the tensioner I decided to just pull it and see how well it operates and compares to the ones Alan tested. Once again, you are right, easier said than done. The fairing came right off exposing the adjuster bolt and two holding the CCT in. Looks a little tight, but not too bad. Using some tape over the hole I was able to pull the adjuster cover bolt right out and the top CCT bolt as well, took less than 30 minutes. Only one 8mm bolt left. Then over the next 5 hours I made 4 tool runs to Autozone and the neighbors, cut and ground down extensions, wrenches and screwdrivers, no luck. I tried open end, box end, wratcheting box end, wobbles, extensions, flexible extensions, tacking a shaft to a socket, nothing. I got 1/64th of a turn using the open end and thats it. I can get an 8mm right on the bolt, but cant come up with any combination that will work with it. Everything is only a tiny fraction of an inch off, but just enough. So I called it quits for tonight before I bugger it.



#16 Fred W

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:08 AM

QUOTE (awitowsk @ Dec 5 2008, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge guys. I appreciate it.


I tried using both a piece of wood and metal rod as a stethoscope. You are absolutely right, its amazing how well the little ticks and clicks are picked up, but I still couldn't pinpoint the sound. It just seemed to be a different frequency or beat than the ticking noise.

So...being pretty sure it is the tensioner I decided to just pull it and see how well it operates and compares to the ones Alan tested. Once again, you are right, easier said than done. The fairing came right off exposing the adjuster bolt and two holding the CCT in. Looks a little tight, but not too bad. Using some tape over the hole I was able to pull the adjuster cover bolt right out and the top CCT bolt as well, took less than 30 minutes. Only one 8mm bolt left. Then over the next 5 hours I made 4 tool runs to Autozone and the neighbors, cut and ground down extensions, wrenches and screwdrivers, no luck. I tried open end, box end, wratcheting box end, wobbles, extensions, flexible extensions, tacking a shaft to a socket, nothing. I got 1/64th of a turn using the open end and thats it. I can get an 8mm right on the bolt, but cant come up with any combination that will work with it. Everything is only a tiny fraction of an inch off, but just enough. So I called it quits for tonight before I bugger it.


A replacement tensioner is only $66 at Ron Ayers (p/n 5JW-12210-01-00). After you do get that 2nd screw out you may want to have some allen head bolts to replace them with, for easier future extractions. Then again, if you get the thing out, you'll have found whatever secret Yamaha combination of wrenches is required to get it. In case you wanted to go shopping for replacements, the parts list shows that the two bolts are the same.

PS - You will show us the secret combination to get that bolt, won't ya? (have you already tried 1/4" drive socket with ujoint?)


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#17 ionbeam

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 06:28 AM

Common socket wrenches come in 1/4; 3/8; & 1/2 inch drives. You need to be using a 1/4 inch drive socket wrench. The trick tool is a 1/4" drive extension with a wobble end.

For the CCT to come out through the top the TPS will need to be removed. The TPS also has one inaccessible bolt, plus the two TPS bolts are security torxs so you will (most likely) be needing to go back to your local tool supplier. The CCT can come out the bottom if the idle speed adjuster is moved out of the way.

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#18 awitowsk

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 07:04 AM

QUOTE
The trick tool is a 1/4" drive extension with a wobble end.


Thats what I thought. I can get the socket and Ujoint (wobble) on the bolt, but was not able to get the 1/4 extension to line up. Going through the hole in the frame its only off by a little, but just enough. I bought a flexible extension, but it is too big to fit though the hole in the frame. If the hole on the outside of the frame matched the on on the inside it would be simple mad.gif


QUOTE
The TPS also has one inaccessible bolt, plus the two TPS bolts are security torxs so you will (most likely) be needing to go back to your local tool supplier.
Great....



QUOTE
A replacement tensioner is only $66 at Ron Ayers (p/n 5JW-12210-01-00). After you do get that 2nd screw out you may want to have some allen head bolts to replace them with, for easier future extractions. Then again, if you get the thing out, you'll have found whatever secret Yamaha combination of wrenches is required to get it. In case you wanted to go shopping for replacements, the parts list shows that the two bolts are the same.

PS - You will show us the secret combination to get that bolt, won't ya? (have you already tried 1/4" drive socket with ujoint?)


Yeah, Its not too expensive, I will probably spend that much on tool runs. The allen bolts are a great idea---send it to Yamaha! I will take some pics when I get it...which I will, eventually unsure.gif

#19 ionbeam

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 07:20 AM

I'm referring to a true wobble, not a U-joint. Sears carries them. The following picture is not Sears but does show what I mean:


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#20 awitowsk

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 08:26 AM

Thanks, I owe you one. (hopefully) I will go get one and report back.