Posted 04 December 2009 - 08:29 PM
<span style="color:#FF0000;"><span style="font-size:36px;"><em><strong>ADMIN NOTE: </strong> As this thread is added to by the author and author incorporates details into the first post, they may ask to have posts removed to keep the thread clean and organized.</em></span></span><br />
<span style="color:#FF0000;"><strong>NOTE - All info equally pertains to Gen I and Gen II unless specifically stated otherwise.</strong></span><br />
<span style="color:#FF8C00;"><strong>**********Motorcycling is a dangerous sport!!! RUNNING A CAR TIRE ON YOUR MOTORCYCLE CAN HAVE INSURANCE REPERCUSSIONS. Claims in tire related accidents have been both denied and accepted. Read your policy and speak with your agent. Be aware of the potential issues and make your own decisions based on your own risks and risk assessment. If you wish to discuss this, start a new thread, don't post it here.</strong></span><br />
Why put a Car Tire, (CT), on the back of the FJR in the first place?<br />
<span style="color:#000080;">The prime reasons are cost and longevity. A CT will last 20-40k miles and costs $100-200 depending on your choice of tire. For riders that cover 20-30k+ a year, this results in a significant savings. It's also an option for riders doing long trips that would otherwise require a mid trip tire change, possibly in an unlikely location such as Alaska. The CT is also more resistant to punctures.</span><br />
Doesn't the handling suck?<br />
<span style="color:#000080;">No. It's different, but not nearly as different as you might expect. The main two things you notice are heavier turn in and a different feel when crossing grooves in the pavement. There is also a tendency to track more in tire ruts. The heavier turn in is quickly gotten used to and a non-issue once muscle memory is developed. For some, this is the end of the block, others need a couple hundred miles to grow accustomed to it.<br />
The main loss with a CT is the quick, effortless transitions that we experience on new moto tires. On moto tires this dimishes as the tires wear, with handling becoming poor at the end of the tire's tread life, (sometimes earlier). With the CT, the handling is consistent throughout the life of the tire. Once the rider is accustomed to the new feel, quick, easy transitions are natural again with no, or little, perceived additional effort. The CT actually offers smoother & easier turn in as it "wears in" to moto use. This takes around 400-1000 miles, depending on tire. Also worth noting is that front tire wear still impacts turn in feel too. A worn front tire will increase turn in effort, just as a squared off rear moto tire contributes to this effect.</span><br />
<span style="font-size:18px;"><span style="color:#FF0000;">Local regulations and vehicle inspections requirements should be investigated to determine the legality and potential liability before mounting and using a car tire on a motorcycle.</span></span><br />
Uneven road surfaces, like steps as you move from that newly paved lane to the one not yet re-paved or curb edge transitions can cause the bike to sharply lean, use extra care during this type of maneuver!!<br />
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="doctorJ">I have found one thing to be aware of with the car tire on the feejer. I sometimes drive up the short inclines (for wheelchair entrance) to park at some storefronts that have cycle parking. This isn't a problem if riden straight up, but when I tried this at an angle, the rear tire "wanted" to follow the degree of the angle of the incline i.e. wanted to lean me downhill. This didn't make me fall over but just got my attention. So if going up these things like I do occasionally, be ready or lean "uphill" or just go up straight.</blockquote>
<p>I know that the capable FJR is up to the challenge, but that tar,I don't know, I don't think so..(can it really handle in the twisties??)<br />
<span style="color:#000080;">It really <em>does</em> have traction all the way over to peg scraping lean angles. Once the muscle memory is established and you accept that you really can lean just like you did before, there is no problem riding fast in the twisties. It <strong>is</strong> more work to toss the bike back and forth with the CT. As mentioned above, transitions from side to side require more effort. Once the muscles are built up, it doesn't seem like a big difference, but spending the day in the twisties will usually let you know that you got a work out in the shoulders.</span><br />
Will I be trading traction and handling for more tire mileage?<br />
<span style="color:#000080;">No, you will not be giving up any traction. If you brake in, hammer out and live for the twisties, you are giving something up for more tire mileage. Not traction/control, but ease of turn in and feel, both personal things that every rider has to quantify for themselves. Tire choice, <em>even among car tires</em>, does make a big difference! A very general rule of thumb is that if you wear out a sport-touring tire in 4k, you're probably not a candidate for CT use. You'll miss the light turn in effort of fresh moto tires.</span><br />
But the sidewalls of a CT aren't meant for riding on! Won't this be dangerous?<br />
<span style="color:#000080;">No. You never ride on the sidewalls of the CT. The dynamics are a little different when using a CT on the motorcycle. For much of the time the full width of the CT tread is on the ground. During low angle turns, all of the tread stays in contact with the pavement and the sidewalls flex to allow this. When turn angles exceed the ability of the sidewalls to flex, the outside tread blocks start to lift off the ground, but the tire does not roll over onto the side wall. The inside tread blocks remain in contact with the pavement. At extreme lean angles the last two tire blocks of the tread are still in contact with the pavement, even in peg dragging turns. There is another dynamic in play at steep angle turns. The rear lifts up, steepening the steering angle, which naturally quickens turn in. However, due to the squarer tread, you don't actually feel this, it's just a smooth transition w/o a peak in effort<br />
Traction is not a limiting factor with the CT. In fact, traction is better than a moto tire in many conditions. The CT does not step out on tar snakes and resists sliding in loose conditions well past the threshold of a moto tire. The greater tread depth and number of tread blocks also helps greatly in dirt/gravel/mud/sand conditions giving a more stable and control-able ride.<br />
Further, the loads and forces involved on the motorcycle are far less than those of a car. Less than half, even at max. load on the FJR. This means less heat, and also means slightly lower tire pressures are desirable for moto use.</span><br />
Will a car tire actually fit on the FJR w/o modifications?<br />
<span style="color:#000080;">No. The tire fits the stock wheel just fine, but the brake caliper tension arm usually rubs, depending on the tire choice. However, it's a simple piece to replace with a flat steel or stainless steel part that allows plenty of clearance. Some riders have also slightly clearanced the center stand legs, though this is usually not necessary. </span><br />
How do I make a new brake tension arm?<br />
<span style="color:#000080;">The stock part is a hollow aluminum tube, likely an extrusion, with lightening holes. A 3/16" thick x 3/4" wide x 9 1/2" long steel or stainless steel flat bar is more than strong enough to replace the stock part. Most well stocked hardware stores will stock this material by the foot. Simply use the stock part as a template to drill the two mounting holes and a third smaller hole for the zip tie that retains the brake line to the bar. Radius the ends to avoid sharp corners and if you use steel, paint it so it won't rust.<br />
Finished length = 9.5" (If you want to get picky, 9 15/32") You need to radius the ends for clearance.<br />
Center to center of the (2) .328" ,(21/64"), mounting holes = 8.563" (or 8 9/16")<br />
Distance of the smaller .243", ('C' drill size), hole, from the END of the bar = 1.157" (or 1 5/32")<br />
Install the new part on the outside of the solid tabs on the swing arm and brake caliper to allow for the additional clearance needed.</span><br />
An online source for stainless steel flat stock is HERE.<br />
<span><img alt="975lhk.jpg" src="http://i48.tinypic.com/975lhk.jpg" /></span><br />
Carmine's Custom Cycle brake bar - Available from FarkleMasters<br />
<span style="color:#FF0000;">NOTE - The brake arm is the same for Gen I and II.</span><br />
<span style="color:#FF0000;"><span style="font-size:18px;">Note: Regardless of what brake arm you make or use, compare it to the stock one before mounting it to ensure the holes line up and the length is correct. At least one rider has had an issue with a long bar not fitting and this can cause potential problems, including, but not limited to, ABS failure!</span></span><br />
Single sided bar. <span><img alt="15ewetx.jpg" src="http://i33.tinypic.com/15ewetx.jpg" /></span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Note that some riders have modified the stock part, either cutting clearance into it, or by cutting it completely in half and using as suggested above, bolted to the outside of the solid tabs. While there have been no reported failures, I really prefer the extra strength of a steel or stainless steel part. You need to make your own judgement call on this.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">If I put the Carmine's Brake bar, (or other modified bar), on the FJR, w/o mounting a car tire will there be an issue?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">No, there are no negative issues with running a CT brake tension arm with a motorcycle tire. This simply makes the bike "CT ready", but in no way limits you. You can safely run either a moto tire or CT at that point with no further modifications</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">What size tire fits?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">The best size car tire to use is 205/50-17. This size CT is the only 17" size rated for a 5.5" wide rim, (the FJR's size), and offers a wide selection of tire choices.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Why not use a 185 or 195 sized car tire, rather than a 205? Wouldn't a smaller car tire be less expensive, easier to mount, have less rolling resistance and be closer to the original 180 tire size?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">The main reasons for this are pretty strait forward. There are no 185 width tires in 17", at least beyond temp spares. 17" tires tend to be in a performance or grand touring class. They often have squarer profiles, in part to maximize tread life, an in part to improve cornering stability with stiff side walls. </span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">What tire pressure do you use?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">This will vary by rider. Many are running 30-32 psi. with the 019 Grid. BugR is running 28 psi on pavement and 25 psi on gravel for the BFG, (which has stiffer sidewalls).<br />
Testing with a temp gauge has shown that for the all season tires 31 psi offers an even temp rise and provides excellent long term wear. Lower pressures will offer easier transition feel, but at the cost of additional wear to the outside tread blocks. Some are running max. pressure for the tire they use, (50 psi), to maintain as much of a rounded profile as possible. (this offers a different feel, but so far appears to not impact tread life, at least at the 10-15k point. Full term wear is still unknown.) Each rider needs to determine what suits their riding style best.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">What tires have already been tried?</span><br />
<span style="color:#FF8C00;">(pics below are of tires when mounted, not during use)</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">The following tires are currently being used on the FJR. Tire choice is a highly individual area. Longevity has not been fully determined at this time, but will be updated as info becomes available.</span><br />
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+G+019+Grid&partnum=05VR7G019&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes">Potenza 019G Grid</a><br />
Bridgestone Potenza 019G Grid, all-season tire with 21k on it.<br />
<a href="http://i32.tinypic.com/2whqc5d.jpg"></a><br />
<span style="color:#FF8C00;">(removed at 36,600 and not quite at the wear bars. Easily a 40k tire)</span><br />
Tire at removal time.<br />
<span><img alt="2jyzur.jpg" src="http://i25.tinypic.com/2jyzur.jpg" /></span><br />
<span><img alt="1zxv1gj.jpg" src="http://i50.tinypic.com/1zxv1gj.jpg" /></span>pics by Doug555 - Darksider #3<br />
<span><img alt="2j3nxo3.jpg" src="http://i48.tinypic.com/2j3nxo3.jpg" /></span><br />
<span style="color:#FF8C00;">(currently at 18k and approx. 50% worn)</span><br />
<span><img alt="am2uk5.jpg" src="http://i47.tinypic.com/am2uk5.jpg" /></span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Pic by BugR - Darksider #2</span><br />
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=ADVAN+A82A&%20partnum=05VR782A&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes%22%20target=%22_blank">Yokohama ADVAN A82A</a><br />
<span style="color:#FF8C00;">(3/32" left to wear bars at 12k)This tire appears to wear faster than the 019</span><br />
<span><img alt="Darkside2001.JPG" src="http://22.214.171.124/coDataImages/p/Groups/311/311367/pages/1081420/Darkside2001.JPG" /></span> pic by Larry33319 - Darksider #7<br />
<a href="https://www.tiresavings.com/tireShop.php?action=findMan2&manufacturer=Aurora&tirename=H107&season=Regular">Aurora H107</a><br />
(used for the '09 IBR with a PR2 - no tire changes or problems.)<br />
May not be available in 205/50-17 at this time.<br />
<span><img alt="35i3yoy.jpg" src="http://i50.tinypic.com/35i3yoy.jpg" /></span>Pics by Catfish w/taildragger fuel cell - Darksider #5<br />
<span><img alt="11kbogg.jpg" src="http://i48.tinypic.com/11kbogg.jpg" /></span>Carmine - Darksider #6 and Catfish Gen I (left) & Gen II (right)<br />
(unidentified car tire)<br />
<span><img alt="t5qgw3.jpg" src="http://i49.tinypic.com/t5qgw3.jpg" /></span>pic by CoastalCop - Darksider #4<br />
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+A%2FS+Plus&partnum=05YR7PSAS&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes">Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus</a><br />
<span><img alt="903mnq.jpg" src="http://i48.tinypic.com/903mnq.jpg" /></span> - Pic by RadioHowie - Darksider #15<br />
Yokahama AVS Db (South Africa)<br />
<span><img alt="2w65wgi.jpg" src="http://i50.tinypic.com/2w65wgi.jpg" /></span> - Pic by Udjeni - Darksider #1SA<br />
Dunlop Direzza DZ101<br />
<span><img alt="9qcys7.jpg" src="http://i41.tinypic.com/9qcys7.jpg" /></span> Pic by wfooshee - Darksider #18<br />
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus<br />
<span><img alt="4ufnux.jpg" src="http://i49.tinypic.com/4ufnux.jpg" /></span> Pic by Longrider - Darksider #20<br />
Dunlop Direzza w/tail dragger cell.<br />
<span><img alt="907squ.jpg" src="http://i40.tinypic.com/907squ.jpg" /></span> Pic by LDRyder - Darksider #22<br />
Michelin Pilot® Exalto® A/S<br />
<span><img alt="2ezpb8i.jpg" src="http://i42.tinypic.com/2ezpb8i.jpg" /></span> Pic by FJRONAMISSION - Darksider #23<br />
Close up of the Exalto A/S profile:<br />
<span><img alt="2ih17xu.jpg" src="http://i29.tinypic.com/2ih17xu.jpg" /></span><br />
Goodrich Supersport A/S<br />
<span><img alt="24pvtok.jpg" src="http://i29.tinypic.com/24pvtok.jpg" /></span> Pic by Bustanut joker<br />
Toyo Extensa Hp<br />
(no pic)<br />
How about adding what cars use this size tire to FAQ? When I ordered my tire this evening, the online store asked for a vehicle.<br />
They do that to suggest other items and it won't affect your ability to buy the tire you want.<br />
<span style="color:#000000;">What about run flat tires?</span><br />
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=G-Max+AS-03"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms';">Run Flat tires have very stiff sidewalls. This is a good thing for the 900 lb. GL1800, but not necessary for the 650 lb. FJR. Run Flat tires are also much more expensive. One of the reasons for a CT is economy. FWIW, even with zero air pressure the FJR is light enough to ride on the CT w/o collapsing it, though I would not attempt to do this at any significant speed!</span></a><br />
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=G-Max+AS-03"><span style="color:#000000;">What about shaving the outside corners of the tire to put more of a radius on them?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">It has been suggested that a tire re-treader or race shop could possibly do this. It may benefit initial turn in to have this done, though I would suggest not going below 4/32" thread depth during the process. In time, the profile wears naturally, but doesn't seem to diminish the tread depth to the same degree that shaving would. If you try this, please let me know and your input will be added to the FAQ.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Aren't CTs different diameters?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">Yes, and they vary by brand, (as do moto tires).<br />
A few differences:<br />
OEM FJR rear ('Stone 021) v/s (generic CT) 205/50/17 CT<br />
Overall diameter: 24.8"(moto) v/s 25.1"(ct)<br />
Tread depth: 7/32"(moto) v/s 10/32"(ct)<br />
Weight: 13.7 lbs(moto) v/s 24 lbs(ct)</span><br />
<span style="color:#FF8C00;">The FJR speedo and odo are slightly off with stock motorcycle tires. Typically reading ~3-5 mph faster than actual on the speedo. Running a 25.1" diameter CT resulted in my '04 FJR's speedo and odo being exactly correct, verified by multiple GPS testing.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Does the heavier CT cause any issues?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">The extra unsprung weight creates a little more work for the rear shock. If the shock is worn, it will become more obvious with the additional weight working the shock harder. Running an aftermarket shock, I have not noticed any need to rebuild any sooner than normal with the CT. The extra weight does impact Hp to a minor degree. The extra mass of the tire sucks up some power during acceleration. Riding back to back identical FJRs, with and w/o CT, makes it apparent that only a slight loss in acceleration is noticeable.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Is it a problem to get a CT mounted on the FJR rim?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">This varies widely. Some moto shops will mount the CT w/o issues. (Cycle Gear seems to be ok in some locations), HD and trike oriented private shops also seem to be generally ok with it. Most car tire sellers can do it, but may not like the idea. A rim clamp tire changer is required for the job, which is common at any tire shop dealing in high end alloy wheels. Some tire changers have too large a center pilot rod for the FJR's wheel. America's Tire has been great, but can't balance the mounted tire due to their equipment. I've simply had them mount the tire for my "trike" and then had a moto shop balance it. Oddly, moto shops seem to have no issue with balancing the CT that's already mounted. <img alt="laugh.gif" src="http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif" /><br />
Generally, it's a good idea to take just the loose wheel into the shop. Giving them a reasonable suggestion that it's for a sidecar equipped motorcycle or trike seems to help in some cases, as that makes sense to them more than running it on a motorcycle.<br />
It can be done on a NoMar or similar manual tire changer too. The main difficulty is getting the second bead on the wheel. The wider CT resists attempts to get the first bead to stay in the 'well' of the wheel. Using small blocks to keep the first bead up into the center valley or well of the wheel helps allow the second bead to shift and that last 1/4 to get over the rim edge. There is enough static pressure on the tire beads that it is very difficult to rotate the tire on the wheel once it's mounted. Seating the bead is a non-issue due to the deeper bead design of the CT. The stiffness of the particular tire's sidewalls has a significant impact on the difficulty of the install. Expect it to be a two man task, even on an automatic machine.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Is it more difficult to push around the garage?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">No, no change that I can notice.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">What about two up riding with the CT?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">Works great. If anything, the additional weight of a passenger keeps even more tread on the ground. Passengers report no change in feel.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Are you sure you haven't died in a horrible, flaming explosion of plastic and aluminum yet?</span><br />
<span style="color:#000080;">Yes, I'm sure. <img alt="wink.gif" src="http://www.fjrforum.com/forum//public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" /> Not so much as a parking lot drop in over 70k miles.</span><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">Darksiders</span></a><br />
OCfjr - Darksider #1<br />
BugR - Darksider #2 (Canadian #1)<br />
Doug555 - #3<br />
<del>Coastalcop - #4 </del><br />
Catfish - #5<br />
Carmine - #6<br />
Larry33319 - #7<br />
tbwrench - #8<br />
Ian - #9<br />
Smokey2255 - #10 (Smokey's non forum friend #10.5)<br />
Dangerdog - #11<br />
Motofrank - #12<br />
Demetri - #13<br />
Fester - #14<br />
RadioHowie - #15<br />
Brodie - #16<br />
Udjeni - #1SA<br />
BPFowler - #17<br />
wfooshee - #18<br />
Meosborn - #19<br />
Longrider - #20<br />
Ed Grant - #21<br />
<del>LDRyder - #22</del><br />
FJRONAMISSION - #23<br />
dupontrob2000 - #24<br />
BigD - Darksider #25<br />
Popee - #26<br />
HazzMatt - #27<br />
Bustanut Joker - #28<br />
Hammer - #29<br />
Mattster31 - #30<br />
fjrob1300 - #31<br />
juniorfjr - #32<br />
Poorbob - #33<br />
Spook - #34<br />
Kirrilian - #35<br />
RaYzerman19 - #36<br />
tripntx - #37<br />
georgee2 - #38<br />
alchemy - #39<br />
doctorj - #40<br />
Floridave -#41<br />
Roy Epperson - #42<br />
TriggerT - $43<br />
garyahouse - #44<br />
<del>LowAndSilent - #45</del><br />
wpbfjr - #46<br />
RPAETZ - #47<br />
Scott Witherow - #48<br />
aroostook - #49<br />
Tonyducks - #50<br />
<del>RossKean - #51</del><br />
SkooterG - Darksider #52<br />
Patriot - #53<br />
BullCBX - #54<br />
pmspaul - #55<br />
vectervp1 - #56<br />
jasonhc73 - #57<br />
Specter - #58<br />
qkslver - #59<br />
TripperMike - #60[/color][/url]<br />
<a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=G-Max+AS-03"><span style="color:#000000;">Dougc - Darksider #61</span></a><br />
<span style="color:#000000;">txvoyager - #62</span><br />
Pimp<span style="color:#ffff00;">Daddy</span><span style="color:#0000ff;">Blue</span>&<span style="color:#ffff00;">Yellow</span> - #63<br />
<span style="color:#000000;"><a href="http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=General&tireModel=G-Max+AS-03">Note: Some people have tried the darkside and changed back. Bungie used the CT for an epic Alaska trip, then changed back to a moto tire. LDryder used the CT for a 49++ ride and changed back to a moto tire. Coastalcop has sold his FJR. Some riders choose to do this for a specific trip or rally, but still feel the handling of a moto tire is their preference and return to that afterwards. As has always been said, this isn't for everyone, it's simply a possible option and you should carefully consider your needs and preferences as well as the safety concerns and liabilities involved before choosing to try this.<br />
Work in progress. If you have a question, ask it via PM and I'll add it to the FAQ. Thanks!</a></span></p>
'12 Super Tenere
Posted 10 October 2011 - 12:02 PM
Post proclaiming the end of his experiment:
Yep, that's right. I'm throwing in the towel. The compromise in handling is too much for me to give up for the potential upside (to me).
Today was the Covered Bridges ride, and my first real test of the Car Tire, except for prior short rides around my neighborhood. The Bridges ride is just a sedate paced ride through the New England country side that immediately showed me the biggest problem of running a CT on the back (to me).
We have all agreed that no matter which car tire you run there is a certain increase in steering effort, with some being worse than others. With a car tire you need to keep counter-steering pressure on the inside handle bar to stay leaned over in the corner. I believe that this is because as you ride up on the inside of the tire the contact patch moves inside of the centerline of the wheel. Regardless of the physics, it happens.
My big problem is that in New England, smooth road surfaces are far and few between. Which means that the suspension is always working hard while cornering. When I have constant pressure being applied to the bars and start humping bumps the front wheel weights and unweights which makes the steering fluctuate. This is very unsettling. Through the day I could sense the tire beginning to breakdown some, or maybe I was just becoming acclimated? But either way, at the end of the day's ride I pulled the bike into the garage and yanked that POS Car Tire off of the bike and slapped on a new PR2 (the one I got in the warranty claim for the split tire last week).
I have other issues with the car tire, such as when accelerating out of a corner (as I am wont to do in twisties) the tire squirms and slides, probably because it is still so new with very tall tread blocks. That might also be the particular tire I was running. I don't care. I didn't like it and my experiment is over.
To you died in the wool Darksiders: Please do not take this as a personal attack of your choices. We all have different wants and needs. We make our own choices. I feel that I gave this a good shot and learned that this is DEFINITELY not for me.
Post going into greater detail:
I owe the community a more thorough explanation on my experiences. My prior post was made between two group ride days this weekend and I didn't really have enough time to collect and post all of my thoughts. I do that here.
I apologize in advance for the extreme length of the post, longer even than my normal forum regurgitation, but I want to get it all out there and then move along and be done with it (and then I can unsubscribe from this never ending thread ) I have a feeling that only people with a direct interest in Darksiding will be motivated to read through this diatribe. And I have a feeling that I will be unlikely to dissuade anyone that has already made up their mind on the issue. So be it.
To the others. Please feel free to skip over this long post, or give it a negative for excessive verbosity, or whatever you like...
The sliding / slipping sensation that I got was when acceleration briskly from a stop while also cornering somewhat hard. As an example, trying to accelerate away from a stop sign when entering a main road from a 90 degree side road intersection before the oncoming traffic arrives.
I remain uncertain as to the cause of this. It has not been experienced or reported by others.
Disclaimer: Because of the extreme amount of steering input required at any higher pressure, I did have the tire aired down to just 28 lbs when this occurred. That was probably too low, and may have been the cause for the sliding/slipping. Even so, even if there was no slipping I just can't justify the compromises in the way the bike feels to me.
It also isn't about arm strength. I was not getting tired from the amount of steering effort, at least not consciously so. The worst part of the experience for me was the "bump steer" like effect on the front end of having to maintain such a firm, steady pressure and cornering over uneven road surfaces that we invariably have here. I have no doubt that I could have continued along with the CT, eventually become more used to it and gone ahead and worn it down to the nubbins.
I don't want to give the impression that the experience was all bad for me. But in weighing the Pros and the Cons I just could not justify keeping it on there for a second longer (I'll explain why at the end).
Improved straight line traction in all conditions. Easy to understand that.
Much improved ride comfort (softness). It really smooths out the sharp bumps, like concrete highway expansion joints.
Higher load rating: This could be especially important with a pillion and full bags on long trips. If one was ever considering pulling a trailer, I'd want to consider mounting a CT on the tow bike. FWIW - I would never consider towing a trailer myself. If I needed to take that much stuff, personally I'd just drive a car. Maybe a convertible...
Easier to "track stand" the bike at stop lights/signs. Putting a foot down becomes somewhat optional. (not really, but it feels a little like that)
And the biggies: Economy and Longevity, This have been expounded on to no end.
Increased steering effort required. Regardless of the tire used, you will never reach the happy place where you turn into a turn and the bike goes around the corner on the line with no (or little) steering input. This was not all that bad on smooth turns. I felt pretty confident to lean hard so long as I could see all the way through a turn and knew there were no bumps or rips in the pavement on my line. But when the front end hit any irregularities, the weighting and un-weighting of the suspension caused the steering feedback to vary, which made the handlebars want to wobble under the varying pressure. It felt like bump steer, even though the mechanics are different.
Yes, there is increased steering effort with the CT. You will never have that wonderful neutral steering of a new set of moto tires. This is mentioned in the FAQ post above. Some of this weighting and unweighting in the bumpy turns is, I believe, due to the 58k on the stock shock. Some riders running moto tires have replaced the stock shock in as little as 25k miles. At 58k, it's certainly not working as well as it did in it's younger life, but this effect does occur as FredW describes, but perhaps not in as pronounced a manner with a better shock.
FredW adds: When I threw the new rear PR2 on the bike the steering went back to dead nuts perfect again. Of course you would not know that because it hadn't been said before now. There is no increase in turn in or steering effort at all, even with my stock setup and a well worn PR2 up front.
Tendency to follow irregularities. Longitudinal cracks, rain grooves, expanded metal bridges. All tires do this to some extent. Having the big meat on the back end makes it more so. You just need to always be on your toes.
True, but I found it to be something I didn't consciously notice after getting accustomed to the CT. I simply gained new responses to those conditions.
Tendency to "self steer" down hill. Similar to above, but more troublesome. The back roads in New England tend to have very heavy crowning. Probably helps them drain the winter snow melt. This means that to go straight down a road the left side of the CT will have more pressure on the road than the right. That wants to tilt the bike to the right, and if you let go of the bars it would steer off the right side of the road. You have to constantly steer toward the crown of the road just to go straight. Also, unlike in many southern states, they don't always cant the road to the turns. They often maintain the crown through the turns which means that you end up with much higher steering effort required to make left handers. Now thow in a few bumps from #1 above.
Considerably Heavier - Has an effect on the bike's suspension. Some folks say you need to beef up the rear suspension to handle a car tire. At 58 k miles, I still have the stock rear shock and it works just fine (so far, knock on wood). In fact ionbeam, who knows a thing or two about suspensions, and happens to find himself behind me pretty often, has remarked about how well my stock suspension is working when watching me over some typical New England roads (which is to say rough ones).
Worse fuel mileage - Yup. Although I have a very limited data-set to go on, I suggest that by running a big wide car tire at lowish pressures required for use on a bike will produce more rolling resistance, and will result in worse fuel mileage. At 28 psi it was quite appreciable on my bike. I got more than 10% worse mileage than my normal, which historically doesn't vary by more than 2 mpg (except when I'm following Dave in Kentucky! ).
Most darksiders running 30 psi or above have not noticed a significant decrease in mpg. Over the course of only a couple of tanks of fuel, other variables could have been in play in FredW's case.
More difficult to mount. Either doing it yourself or finding someone that will do it. I think I have the hang of it now, so could do it again more easily. So maybe not such a big negative.
Liability concerns - Whether well founded or not, there is a possibility, albeit remote, that by using a car tire not approved or intended for use on a motorcycle, that one could have legal issues in the event of "something bad" happening.
How all of the above weighs with me personally:
Longevity and Economy are the two biggest pros. Everything else is fluff, IMO.
I do not commute on my bike. I have a company car and, if I even had a commute, the company would not allow me to ride my bike. Some non-sense about increased liability during work hours. But I don't have commute, I work out of my home, so it's pretty much moot. All of my motorcycle riding is strictly for pleasure. If I remove any of the pleasure of the ride, it's a bad deal for me.
I am a Candy Butt Rider (and proud of it). I do not make LD rides, or rallies. I see no pleasure in riding slab for endless hours to cover a given large amount of distance. I often spend all day in the saddle, only stopping for gas and to pee, and at the end of 10-12 hours I might have only covered 400-500 miles and have never touched an interstate. That is the kind of riding that I find pleasurable. I do not understand the people that think LD rides are "fun", but I can appreciate that everybody has different likes and dislikes and they are certainly all equally valid. I'm amazed by some of these LD feats people talk of, not because I couldn't do it. I'm sure that I could, if I were motivated to. I'm amazed because I ask myself, why?
I buy my PR2's (might change to something else next time) online for ~$150 each on sale with free shipping. They are so easy to mount and balance it is trivial (when I am at home) and free. I am getting around 9k miles per rear, not as high as many other folks, because I wear out the sides of them.
A Michelin Exalto is $155 plus $20 shipping (I'd never encourage anyone to run the $120 Yokohama that I tried). It would probably last me the equivalent of three PR2's because I'd also wear out the sides of a CT first. I just don't ride in a straight line very often. It's back to that pleasure thing...
Need to upgrade suspension? Where is the economy of having to buy an aftermarket shock at ~$750-1000, which will from most accounts need to be rebuilt every 30-40 k miles when with motorcycle tires I can happily run the stock shock or somebody else's stock take-off when mine wears out. Again, this is me. I've heard lots of denigration of the stock FJR suspension, but apparently I am not a good enough rider to tell any better. I'm OK with that.
Front tires wearing faster. I can't prove this, but I have no doubt that with all of the required pushing around of the front end that the front tire life has to be reduced. How much? Not sure... but it has to eat into the economy equation somewhat.
The one thing that I really wish I could economically avoid is in having to take off a tire with a more than a thousand miles left on it, which represents 10% or more of the Fred W life of that tire, because we may be leaving on a 3-4 k miles road trip. I think a better slution for this Candy Butt rider is to get myself a second set of wheels.
In retrospect, I was really never a very good candidate for a car tire to begin with. I even voiced such thoughts early on in this very thread, but I didn't want to be one of those "nay-sayers" that shot down the practice out of hand without any first hand experience. I waited for someone up here in the NE to go darkside, to hopefully steal a ride. No such luck. But I also wanted to see just how tough it is to do it yourself.
So, now I've spilled all of my guts. There you have it all. You should be able to see how I can say so definitively that dark-siding is not for me.
And also how I can't say that it is not a bad idea for some others. Other people have other needs and other tolerances. So... ride on you darksiders. Be happy and enjoy your machines. Hopefully we'll share a ride somewhere down the road.
'12 Super Tenere
Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:31 AM
Heart of Texas Rally
April 28, 2012