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Neutral Light - Resolved!


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#1 RossKean

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:43 PM

I have done a bit of reading but am not sure where to start with this particular issue - mechanical or electrical.

The bike (2007 A) shifts normally into all gears, including neutral. Sometimes, although the bike is definately in neutral, the neutral light does not come on. If the neutral light is not on, the engine dies when the side stand is lowered. - not just a funky lamp.

Is there a possible problem with a mechanical/electrical switch? If so, where do I start looking. I hope its neither a major mechanical or electrical issue.

This issue is intermittant. I just bought the bike and the only problem with this behavior is that I can't always let the bike warm up in neutral on the sidestand.

Ross
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#2 RadioHowie

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE (RossKean @ Apr 11 2010, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have done a bit of reading but am not sure where to start with this particular issue - mechanical or electrical.

The bike (2007 A) shifts normally into all gears, including neutral. Sometimes, although the bike is definately in neutral, the neutral light does not come on. If the neutral light is not on, the engine dies when the side stand is lowered. - not just a funky lamp.

Is there a possible problem with a mechanical/electrical switch? If so, where do I start looking. I hope its neither a major mechanical or electrical issue.

This issue is intermittant. I just bought the bike and the only problem with this behavior is that I can't always let the bike warm up in neutral on the sidestand.

Ross


Sidestand switch....right at the hinge of the sidestand and bracket. VERY susceptible to road spooge in its location. Good place to start.



#3 RossKean

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 12:54 PM

QUOTE (RadioHowie @ Apr 11 2010, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (RossKean @ Apr 11 2010, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have done a bit of reading but am not sure where to start with this particular issue - mechanical or electrical.

The bike (2007 A) shifts normally into all gears, including neutral. Sometimes, although the bike is definately in neutral, the neutral light does not come on. If the neutral light is not on, the engine dies when the side stand is lowered. - not just a funky lamp.

Is there a possible problem with a mechanical/electrical switch? If so, where do I start looking. I hope its neither a major mechanical or electrical issue.

This issue is intermittant. I just bought the bike and the only problem with this behavior is that I can't always let the bike warm up in neutral on the sidestand.

Ross


Sidestand switch....right at the hinge of the sidestand and bracket. VERY susceptible to road spooge in its location. Good place to start.


Does the sidestand switch affect whether the neutral light comes on or not? If so, thats an easy fix but I didn't think a dirty sidestand switch should keep the neutral light from coming on. (I'm obviously new to the FJR)

If the bike is in neutral and the neutral light is on, the sidestand does not does not cut the engine. If the bike is in neutral and the neutral light is off (when it shouldn't be) then the sidestand will kill the engine.

Thanks

Ross

groundspider.jpgYN3DYrL.jpg

#4 Patriot

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 01:12 PM

on my cruiser, the only green wire went to the neutral sending switch...the spade connector got a bit corroded over the years and the light became intermittment with no other symptoms. Bike did have safety switches on the clutch and the side stand.

Cleaned up the connection and all was well.
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#5 RossKean

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 03:59 PM

The bike is really clean but has not really been run since last season. Something may simply be sticky and the problem may just go away eventually. The fact that the problem is intermittant means that something probably isn't actually broken but can make troubleshooting a real bitch.

I guess I'll start by cleaning the sidestand switch - seems to me that it is doing what it is supposed to do i.e. shutting off the engine when sidestand is lowered with the neutral light off. It just "thinks" the engine is in gear when its not. Anyway, a shot of contact cleaner or WD-40 won't hurt a thing and only takes a few seconds.

I will have a look at the neutral switch and make sure that the wiring is not loose or pinched. I have no idea what I'm looking for other than to see if it looks "normal" (whatever that is...) Where does the other end of the neutral switch wire go? (Sorry, I haven't had a chance to get a service manual, yet)

I sincerely hope that this isn't a symptom of the "ground spider" faults that have been reported lately. Not ready to pull all the plastic and start digging into electrical stuff - I've only had the bike for a day and it isn't even licenced yet. From what I have read, this doesn't seem to be a likely cause of this symptom.

Essentially, everything works. As far as I can see, if the neutral light doesn't come on, I am unable to warm the bike up in neutral on the sidestand. Also, I can't open the glovebox because the bike doesn't know the tranny is in neutral.

By the way, the gear display (LCD) "knows" that the bike isn't in gear (blank display).

I did some searching on this forum and didn't find anything that would seem to help.

Ross
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#6 Constant Mesh

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:05 PM

Is the gear indication (1 to 5) on the LCD display working OK?

#7 Bustanut joker

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:10 PM

Unrelated to the infamous spider.. I had the same problem and it was the neutral switch.
A real pain in the ass to get to but you can do it without disassembling anything, just real tight quarters.

I pulled mine out for whatever reason dribble.gif just kinda banged it around some, cleaned the connectors and put it back in..
All good.

jester.gif
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#8 RossKean

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:19 PM

QUOTE (Constant Mesh @ Apr 11 2010, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is the gear indication (1 to 5) on the LCD display working OK?


Gear indicator is working properly (1-5). Neutral shows the appropriate blank


groundspider.jpgYN3DYrL.jpg

#9 Constant Mesh

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:22 PM

On an '07 the glove box latch is not affected by the neutral switch. Whenever the key is switched on the glove box should open and close.

The neutral switch (NS) on an '07 is very different from the NS on an '04.

#10 RossKean

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Bustanut joker @ Apr 11 2010, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Unrelated to the infamous spider.. I had the same problem and it was the neutral switch.
A real pain in the ass to get to but you can do it without disassembling anything, just real tight quarters.

I pulled mine out for whatever reason dribble.gif just kinda banged it around some, cleaned the connectors and put it back in..
All good.

jester.gif


I was thinking the neutral switch might be the problem. If its not too complicated, I might just do as you suggest and see if i can take it out and clean up the contacts some. I'll see if there's enough room to get my big mitts in there. Maybe tomorrow...

Isn't it great to have all of these "safety" interlocks on the bike to help save us from our own stupidity. At least until you can't open the glovebox 'cause the bike doesn't "think" its in neutral. That little gem might get disabled pretty soon, even if I manage to fix the problem.

Thanks

Ross
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#11 RossKean

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Posted 11 April 2010 - 04:29 PM

QUOTE (Constant Mesh @ Apr 11 2010, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
On an '07 the glove box latch is not affected by the neutral switch. Whenever the key is switched on the glove box should open and close.

The neutral switch (NS) on an '07 is very different from the NS on an '04.



Didn't know that, thanks
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#12 Constant Mesh

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 04:59 AM

The gear position switch is on the left side of the engine. It's just to the right and above the oil filler cap. It has two small bolts securing it to the engine -- 2.9 lb. ft. torque (not very tight) with threadlocker. It has an O-ring which makes it oil tight.

Six wires in a sheath leave the switch going up under the seat area. There's a wire connector there somewhere you could take apart and test the mechanical switch.

The wires are different colors on each side of the connector.

Neutral signal
Sky Blue wire -- wiring harness side
Black wire -- switch side

The wire is grounded to the engine when it's in neutral, otherwise it's an open circuit. Same for the other five gears. Only one wire should be grounded at a time. Whichever gear you're in that corresponding wire should be grounded.

There's one spring-loaded pin extending out from the shift drum which grounds each gear position switch as the shift drum rotates from gear to gear.

I've never removed the switch so I don't know if the spring-loaded pin shoots out into your eye if the switch is removed.

#13 RossKean

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 05:46 AM

QUOTE (Constant Mesh @ Apr 12 2010, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The gear position switch is on the left side of the engine. It's just to the right and above the oil filler cap. It has two small bolts securing it to the engine -- 2.9 lb. ft. torque (not very tight) with threadlocker. It has an O-ring which makes it oil tight.

Six wires in a sheath leave the switch going up under the seat area. There's a wire connector there somewhere you could take apart and test the mechanical switch.

The wires are different colors on each side of the connector.

Neutral signal
Sky Blue wire -- wiring harness side
Black wire -- switch side

The wire is grounded to the engine when it's in neutral, otherwise it's an open circuit. Same for the other five gears. Only one wire should be grounded at a time. Whichever gear you're in that corresponding wire should be grounded.

There's one spring-loaded pin extending out from the shift drum which grounds each gear position switch as the shift drum rotates from gear to gear.

I've never removed the switch so I don't know if the spring-loaded pin shoots out into your eye if the switch is removed.


The gear position is being sensed correctly (gears 1-5 and blank for neutral as shown on the multifunction display). I think the issue is with the neutral switch which is (I think) totally separate from the gear position switch. In any case, I'll get into it and make sure all electrical connections are solid as a first step. Then I'll check out the neutral switch, lube the sidestand and generally check things out. I think (hope) it will turn out to be something simple and cheap.

Ross
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#14 fjr mississippi

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 05:54 AM

Your glovebox should open anytime the ignition is switched on.

#15 Constant Mesh

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 06:38 AM

What I described is the neutral switch as well as the 1 to 5 gear indicator switches. The neutral switch on the '05 and earlier models was located on the back of the crankcase near the swingarm pivot. That switch is now found only on the AE model. The gear indicator may give a blank indication when the signal for 1 to 5 is not present no matter if you have a neutral indication or not.

#16 wfooshee

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 06:40 AM

This is definitely the neutral switch or associated wiring, but the Gen II A (non-AE) does not have a separate neutral switch, it uses the switching in the gear position indicator. Caveat: my diagram is a 2006, but I'm sure the '07 is the same.

The gear selection switch is a box with six switches, one for each gear and one for neutral. Each switch is grounded for its gear, but the neutral wire goes to an entirely different route in the wiring harness, through different connectors in the harness.

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#17 RossKean

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 07:04 AM

QUOTE (Constant Mesh @ Apr 12 2010, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What I described is the neutral switch as well as the 1 to 5 gear indicator switches. The neutral switch on the '05 and earlier models was located on the back of the crankcase near the swingarm pivot. That switch is now found only on the AE model. The gear indicator may give a blank indication when the signal for 1 to 5 is not present no matter if you have a neutral indication or not.


I think I understand. Since I don't have a service manual yet (just got the bike), I was just going by a parts fiche found on a parts vendor's website. They identify a neutral switch assembly as 3P6-82540-00-00 Link is : http://www.yamahaspo...e...&fveh=12870

Anyway, I'll get into it and check things out. If I can't find it, I'll see if the local dealer knows anything.
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#18 wfooshee

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 02:30 PM

QUOTE (RossKean @ Apr 12 2010, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Constant Mesh @ Apr 12 2010, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What I described is the neutral switch as well as the 1 to 5 gear indicator switches. The neutral switch on the '05 and earlier models was located on the back of the crankcase near the swingarm pivot. That switch is now found only on the AE model. The gear indicator may give a blank indication when the signal for 1 to 5 is not present no matter if you have a neutral indication or not.


I think I understand. Since I don't have a service manual yet (just got the bike), I was just going by a parts fiche found on a parts vendor's website. They identify a neutral switch assembly as 3P6-82540-00-00 Link is : http://www.yamahaspo...e...&fveh=12870

Anyway, I'll get into it and check things out. If I can't find it, I'll see if the local dealer knows anything.


That is the part, but it may not be the culprit. Before that ground from the neutral switch gets to the ECU, it goes through a signficant amount of wiring and at least two connectors before reaching the starter interlock relay under the seat, which is the first thing on the bike to see the neutral switch being grounded. (It's actually the only direct connection to the neutral switch.) That ground passes through a diode network in the case containing the starter interlock relay (and the fuel pump relay as well) to other circuits, including the ECU and the clutch switch. You might actually have a problem with the starter interlock relay box.

Basically, don't buy parts until you know you're buying the right parts, and you know simply cleaning them won't do the job.

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#19 RossKean

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 02:24 AM

QUOTE (wfooshee @ Apr 12 2010, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is the part, but it may not be the culprit. Before that ground from the neutral switch gets to the ECU, it goes through a signficant amount of wiring and at least two connectors before reaching the starter interlock relay under the seat, which is the first thing on the bike to see the neutral switch being grounded. (It's actually the only direct connection to the neutral switch.) That ground passes through a diode network in the case containing the starter interlock relay (and the fuel pump relay as well) to other circuits, including the ECU and the clutch switch. You might actually have a problem with the starter interlock relay box.

Basically, don't buy parts until you know you're buying the right parts, and you know simply cleaning them won't do the job.

Thanks. I will have to get into it and have look. Before removing the sensor, I'll pull apart the connectors and see if the neutral wire is a short to ground when the tranny is in neutral and the neutral light isn't showing. If it is, than the sensor is good and I won't pull it. (any idea which wire is neutral?) I'll see if I can follow it back to the ECU but without a service manual, it might be difficult. These things are hard to diagnose fully when the failure is intermittant. I'll clean and dielectric grease any and all connectors that appear to be part of the circuit. Where is the starter interlock relay box and how can I check it, assuming that I don't find a root cause elsewhere?

Its not really anything that will keep me off the road but its an annoyance to be unable to warm up the engine while on the sidestand. Sometimes also helps to be able to see at a glance when I am in neutral.

I fully intend to get the service manual for the FJR - just haven't gotten around to it yet.
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#20 Fred W

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 04:03 AM

QUOTE (RossKean @ Apr 13 2010, 06:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Before removing the sensor, I'll pull apart the connectors and see if the neutral wire is a short to ground when the tranny is in neutral and the neutral light isn't showing. If it is, than the sensor is good and I won't pull it. (any idea which wire is neutral?)


Answered here:

QUOTE (Constant Mesh @ Apr 12 2010, 08:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The gear position switch is on the left side of the engine. It's just to the right and above the oil filler cap. It has two small bolts securing it to the engine -- 2.9 lb. ft. torque (not very tight) with threadlocker. It has an O-ring which makes it oil tight.

Six wires in a sheath leave the switch going up under the seat area. There's a wire connector there somewhere you could take apart and test the mechanical switch.

The wires are different colors on each side of the connector.

Neutral signal
Sky Blue wire -- wiring harness side
Black wire -- switch side


The wire is grounded to the engine when it's in neutral, otherwise it's an open circuit. Same for the other five gears. Only one wire should be grounded at a time. Whichever gear you're in that corresponding wire should be grounded.

There's one spring-loaded pin extending out from the shift drum which grounds each gear position switch as the shift drum rotates from gear to gear.

I've never removed the switch so I don't know if the spring-loaded pin shoots out into your eye if the switch is removed.