Jump to content


Photo

Advanced MSF Course ?


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

Poll: Do It ? (26 member(s) have cast votes)

Do You think everyone should take the "Advanced Course" ?

  1. For sure (15 votes [55.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.56%

  2. Its good . But not esential (8 votes [29.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 29.63%

  3. If you ain't got anything else to do its O.K. (4 votes [14.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.81%

  4. Forget it "Waste of time" (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 sevens0n

sevens0n

    Training Pilot

  • Members+
  • PipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LaCrosse, Wisconsin
  • Bike: 2007 ABS (Gen II) N. America

Posted 11 March 2011 - 06:43 PM

I've only been riding motorcycles on the street for about 5 years. Got my cyle endorsment from a "Basic Riders Course" instead of taking the DMV road test. I have since had the privledge of riding with some very experianced motorcyclists. None of them have taken the "Advanced Riders Course". They seem to think its a bit of a waste of time. We are allways wearing decent gear and take pride in trying to be be as safe as possible out there. Read Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough. Thats sort of my riding bible so to speak.

Would the advanced rider course be worthwhile? Why?
Or mayby "track day" would be a better leaning experiance?

Regards

FNG

Edited by sevens0n, 11 March 2011 - 06:48 PM.

2007 FJR1300ABS, 1993 XLH1200DLX (Blown-Up), 1979 XS650SII, 1975 XS650B, 1973 RD350


#2 Zorlac

Zorlac

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,123 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Franklinville, NJ
  • Bike: 2005 (Gen I) N. America

Posted 11 March 2011 - 08:47 PM

I took one on my FJR not long after I bought it used and ended up setting it down onto the left side after coming to a stop during an emergency exercise.

It really depends on how tough the teachers are, mine were not, and it wasn't nearly as beneficial as the beginners course.

A big heavy bike is a handicap, especially one you don't want to drop. :blink:

Much better taken when it's NOT a steaming hot day, cause you ain't ridin around much. :dribble:
JMO
It makes sense when you don't think about it.

#3 SacramentoMike

SacramentoMike

    Not Safe For Work

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,903 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sacramento, CA (honest)
  • Bike: 2005 ABS (Gen I) N. America

Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:15 PM

I haven't taken the advanced MSF course; in fact, I've never taken any MSF course, so I can't compare them to anything I have personal experience with. Been riding so long I think the MSF came along after I did. But I have taken some very helpful and useful riding courses and workshops, like Lee Parks' "Total Control" workshop, and "Streetmasters" down south. They both helped me develop as a rider, much as even good skiers and golfers benefit from advanced lessons.

There are plenty of other courses of this kind to be found with a little looking, too. I recommend you get on an ongoing and continuing quest to develop all your riding skills. It IS your ass on the line, after all.

By the way (and I could be wrong :) ), going cold into a track day would be the equivalent of learning to ski by taking the gondola all the way to the top and heading down the double-diamond run. For what it's worth.
"These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." Groucho Marx
"Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff." Jack Handy
"Watch out for that tree!" George of the Jungle
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted ImagePosted Image Posted Image

#4 Crash Cash

Crash Cash

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,051 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:---
  • Bike: Other or considering FJR

Posted 11 March 2011 - 11:26 PM

I thought it was useful. I took mine a while ago. One of the things they tried to do was have people unlearn common bad habits they'd picked up, which appeared to be very useful to just about everyone in the class.

On the other hand, Florida now requires MSF for a license, so the prices have gone from $30 to $200. <_<

#5 BwanaDik

BwanaDik

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,674 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Conroe, TX
  • Bike: 2006 ABS AE (Gen II) World

Posted 12 March 2011 - 08:30 AM

I took one on my FJR not long after I bought it used and ended up setting it down onto the left side after coming to a stop during an emergency exercise.

It really depends on how tough the teachers are, mine were not, and it wasn't nearly as beneficial as the beginners course.

A big heavy bike is a handicap, especially one you don't want to drop. :blink:

Much better taken when it's NOT a steaming hot day, cause you ain't ridin around much. :dribble:
JMO


Yes, take it. Although I disagree here in that you're trying to get you bike handling skills to improve, so why not use your own bike? Just be carefull.

My class too was a bit dumbed down but I still picked up a couple of tips I had forgotten. And yes, take it when it's cooler.


I'm a big fan of continuous training. I've taken the Pridmore class, the MSF advanced class, and two Stayin' Safe classes

They are all good but teach very different skills. The MSF is good for slow speed techniques which are necessary for dealing with daily traffic and parking situations.

The Pridmore CLASS school

CLASS

is really good for learning higher speed cornering and shifting techniques. Probably similar to other track day schools.

The Stayin' Safe class is a two or three day school that is actually conducted on public roads. The emphasis is on safe bike positioning and traffic skills. They give you a radio so the instructor can coach you while you ride. The only class like it in the country

Stayin' Safe

There's no such thing as too much training, you'll pick up something every time.

dropfinal.gifsfo08.gifsfo09.gifSWFOG2010.gifswfog-twitter-60px.jpgSWFOG2014_zps29cf405c.jpg BB1500 SS1000 IBA#39439


#6 charismaticmegafauna

charismaticmegafauna

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,724 posts
  • Location:Southwest
  • Bike: 2003 (Gen I) N. America

Posted 12 March 2011 - 04:20 PM

It really depends on how tough the teachers are, mine were not, and it wasn't nearly as beneficial as the beginners course.

Yes, take it.
My class too was a bit dumbed down but I still picked up a couple of tips
The MSF is good for slow speed techniques
There's no such thing as too much training, you'll pick up something every time.

Yes, the instructor/s is/are critical for success (getting the most out of it...) -- and, (sadly) the (Experienced) ERC is often set-up as a casual practice/meeting (it's not mandatory for anything). Unlike the Beginner Class -- which is used as a pass/fail for many States' m/c endorsements.
Most of the Beginner Class curriculum is taught (and learned by the students). Not necessarily so for the ERC -- there's plenty of curricula to be taught but the rider-coach/instructor must do it (mostly by exuberant coaching of the range excersises -- exercises that followed eye-opening demos). Many so-called experienced riders are un-willing/too cautious to expand their envelope -- even if many techniques that will hold you in good stead in higher-speed situations can be learned and practiced (well) on a parking-lot range.
Good luck with your on-going ed. -- I hope you get a good/dedicated Rider Coach/Instructor.
"All you have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to you."
Gandalf the Grey

#7 Aasland

Aasland

    Depleted

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,006 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Red Wing, MN
  • Bike: 2006 ABS (Gen II) World

Posted 12 March 2011 - 05:04 PM

Riding with highly skilled folks is nice, but is no excuse for learning from a trained professional. The difference in ability and desire to teach is more than palpable.

I've taken a number of classes, but not the advanced MSF.

Hough's books have also been my bible - he does a very good job of explaining the basics but no way would I consider that information "advanced".

Q: Would the advanced rider course be worthwhile? Why?

A: I don't know about the MSF one in particular, but as someone who has been riding for a mere ten years I have learned soooo much from other advanced courses. Even when I lived out west and rode twisty roads with track veterans (who promptly left me behind) I felt I was learning when in reality I was reinforcing bad habits to keep up. One day in an advanced riding school taught me more than I had learned from several years on the street - and in a much safer environment.

Q: Or mayby "track day" would be a better leaning experiance?
A: Not yet. Take an advanced riding course first, then a more track-oriented one, THEN do a track day.

The BRC was a good starter, even though I took it after I had passed the DMV test.
The ERC was a good second-riding-year refresher.
The ERC my third year was a waste of time and money.
The Team Oregon's ARC was eye-opener to what my VFR could really do. I'd like to take it again.
Lee Park's "Total Control", despite the price, improved my low speed bike handling dramatically.
Zalusky Advanced Riding School (ZARS) just a couple north of you is an excellent and inexpensive place to get riding time on your bike to hone specific techniques, with instructors to help. I take this several times a year.

Bottom line is that learning new motorcycle skills is fun, and you'll learn them much faster in a professional environment than with your friends.

------------------

IBA# 54416


#8 Silver Penguin

Silver Penguin

    Silver Penguin

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,807 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Huntington Beach, CA
  • Bike: Other or considering FJR

Posted 12 March 2011 - 05:38 PM

The ERC doesn't introduce much, if anything that isn't on the basic curriculum. If you've never taken the basic class, or you've collected some bad habits along the way, the class will be worthwhile. If you're motivated to set yourself up some cones in a parking lot and practice drills, you can save yourself some $$ as well as getting your training regularly. You might get lucky with an MSF rider coach who really know what he's about and is highly motivated to teach. You might not.

Take a look at what courses are available in your area. Anything you can learn, or improve on has to be worth doing. Since I've figured that I can never learn nor practice enough, I've taken the following:

MSF basic class x 2
MSF ERC
MSF Dirt bike school
Streetmasters
Femmoto track day with instructors.
Rich Oliver's Mystery school
Ride Like A Pro

And then tomorrow, I'm taking a dirt riding class with Motoventures.

In addition, I try to learn what I can from the wise people on the forum (once I've figured out who they are, and who is full of it). I've also read David Hough's awesome books plus many others. Daily, I practice mindful riding where I try to really pay attention to developing and maintaining good riding habits.
La Pinguina plata

Clicky here.

Welcome to the FJR Forum, where the truly twisted meet the merely insane! (El Cajone)

#9 Zorlac

Zorlac

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,123 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Franklinville, NJ
  • Bike: 2005 (Gen I) N. America

Posted 12 March 2011 - 06:50 PM

"I try to learn what I can from the wise people on the forum (once I've figured out who they are, and who is full of it)."

I try and make a point to read people's sharing on crashes or close calls to try and learn what not to do.
Sometimes people give excellent details right up to the oh shit moment so that I can interpret what really went wrong in my own way.
It makes sense when you don't think about it.

#10 Patriot

Patriot

    Isabella is Lazarus

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,152 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Metairie, LA suburb of Ole Nawlins'
  • Bike: 2004 (Gen I) N. America

Posted 12 March 2011 - 09:30 PM

there's a one day "advanced" class (equal to MSF, but taken over by the state dept transportation) in April only given one a year.
cost isn't an issue at $25
I'm considering it, but have low expectations about it. I am, however, encouraging fellow riders with less experience or skills than moi to take it and
they probably would be more likely to do so if I lead the effort.
Mike in Nawlins' ..... 2004.5 FJR 1300 Silver Bullet "Isabella" in Nawlins' ..... Darksider #53
IBA# 42430 . my pics - FLICKR CLICKY HERE and New Orleans Ride Captain; Patriot Guard Riders; www.patriotguard.org
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

#11 Bike Effects

Bike Effects

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,930 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Napa, CA
  • Bike: 2003 (Gen I) N. America

Posted 12 March 2011 - 10:42 PM

I am an absolute proponent of these courses. I have done the advanced course twice if I recall correctly.

#12 RavFJR

RavFJR

    FJR Pilot

  • Members++
  • PipPipPip
  • 128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:So. Cal
  • Bike: 2009 ABS (Gen II) N. America

Posted 13 March 2011 - 06:05 AM

It all depends what you're looking to get out of the course... The basic MSF course caters to (of course) beginners, most not having much experience... Thus, the foundations of riding are explored and taught. To me, the advanced MSF course was more advanced, as far as skilled needed, but was too generic in principle. I recently just signed up for a cornering workshop that focuses on principles that the FJR is good at - riding the twisties. I feel this course will focus in on advanced techniques that I am looking for... Good luck

#13 Fred W

Fred W

    Flatus Antiquous

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,831 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Southern NH
  • Bike: 2005 ABS (Gen I) N. America

Posted 13 March 2011 - 06:39 AM

Multiple people have mentioned un-learning "bad habits".
What are some examples of these? :unsure:

-Fred W                 nerd.gif


 


#14 BwanaDik

BwanaDik

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,674 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Conroe, TX
  • Bike: 2006 ABS AE (Gen II) World

Posted 13 March 2011 - 07:30 AM

Multiple people have mentioned un-learning "bad habits".
What are some examples of these? :unsure:


Following any advice given out by Bust or Howie? :lol: :lol:

dropfinal.gifsfo08.gifsfo09.gifSWFOG2010.gifswfog-twitter-60px.jpgSWFOG2014_zps29cf405c.jpg BB1500 SS1000 IBA#39439


#15 Aasland

Aasland

    Depleted

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,006 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Red Wing, MN
  • Bike: 2006 ABS (Gen II) World

Posted 13 March 2011 - 08:09 AM

Multiple people have mentioned un-learning "bad habits".
What are some examples of these? :unsure:


When cornering I was sliding my entire butt off the seat when I should have been moving my shoulders more.

Also, my lines weren't optimal ... I thought I was delayed apexing, instructors pointed out I was double-apexing.

------------------

IBA# 54416


#16 charismaticmegafauna

charismaticmegafauna

    FJR Commander

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,724 posts
  • Location:Southwest
  • Bike: 2003 (Gen I) N. America

Posted 13 March 2011 - 08:27 AM

Multiple people have mentioned un-learning "bad habits".
What are some examples of these? :unsure:

A common one (and one that often takes an observant rider-coach/instructor to spot) is: not rolling-on the throttle at the beginning of the turn. Many riders don't get all their slowing-down done before the turn -- they 'coast' into the turn -- and, thereby, don't accelerate around (through) the turn. In effect, decelerating in the turn.
It's all about learning and practicing proper technique.
"All you have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to you."
Gandalf the Grey

#17 phroenips

phroenips

    Pronounced "Free-nips"...it's just a made up word

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,031 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Colorado Springs, CO
  • Bike: 2007 ABS (Gen II) N. America

Posted 13 March 2011 - 08:45 AM

It's pretty much all the same exercises from the BRC, but on your bike this time. I liked it because of that alone...get me more used to the FJR
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image Posted ImagePosted Image
2003 Honda Shadow 750 A.C.E., 2009 Suzuki Boulevard M90, 2008 Yamaha WR250R, 2007 Yamaha FJR1300A

#18 sevens0n

sevens0n

    Training Pilot

  • Members+
  • PipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:LaCrosse, Wisconsin
  • Bike: 2007 ABS (Gen II) N. America

Posted 13 March 2011 - 10:40 AM

Thanks much for the great responce. After reading throught this thread. I will be attending some sort of formal rider training this season. Makes perfect scence to me now. It will most likely be a MSF course. I was really not aware of the variety of training thats available. Thanks for the links and awsome food for thought.

2007 FJR1300ABS, 1993 XLH1200DLX (Blown-Up), 1979 XS650SII, 1975 XS650B, 1973 RD350


#19 Frushlorton

Frushlorton

    FJR Pilot

  • Members++
  • PipPipPip
  • 225 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fredericksburg, VA
  • Bike: 2005 ABS (Gen I) N. America

Posted 13 March 2011 - 04:31 PM

I have taken the MSF Basic course (1988) and the ERC twice. Being active duty Air Force, it is mandatory to continue the training. The first ERC was at a base outside of DC. The instructor had an assitant call out and he had to "teach" alone. It was hot and he skimmed through the material. It was good to run some tight turns and cones to bump the rust off. The second time was with the Navy last year. They provided a permanent course w/ two instructors. The did a greatt job of keeping us moving and providing feedback as needed. I improved in a few areas. I am looking forward to a total control course soon.
In the absense of clear direction, make a decision and execute with violence!

84 454 LTD sold, 82 GS 750 sold

#20 FJR Flyer

FJR Flyer

    DC Commuter Commando

  • Members++
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 707 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland
  • Bike: 2006 ABS (Gen II) World

Posted 14 March 2011 - 04:20 AM

Took the MSF basic course in '96 as it was mandatory to ride on station. Actually, got a lot out of that course, some of which has saved my life. Took the MSF advanced course a number of years later. Thought the book provided good info, but the classroom didn't offer anything new, IMO. And the afternoon riding session got toned down by rain, so I can't really say if it would be any better. We were left with the same drills as the basic course.

Took the Lee Parks Total Control class last year, and I felt it really improved the way I handle the bike. I'd probably take their advanced class versus doing another MSF class.
Chris P. IBA#37903
'06 FJR1300, '87 FJ1200, '76 DT250
Posted ImagePosted Image