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Issues with newly acquired 2005 FJR with 10k miles


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#1 stioc

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 10:51 PM

I posted this in the FJR specific section but I didn't get a lot of responses so I'm hoping to get some help here:(

I purchased a 2005 FJR with only 10k miles on it just a few days ago. Right from the get-go it seemed to have a weird surging and stumbling. I figured it probably needed to be run hard and get the cobwebs blown off so to speak. This morning I went to the local parts store to pick up some spark plugs and on the way the bike felt like it had no power especially pulling from the stop lights. About 15mins later it even started pinging and vibrating on take offs so I had to slip the clutch to get going.

When I got home and I had FJRBluesman (local forum member) waiting for me to help me do the TBS. I mentioned the issue to him and he immediately pointed to the blued exhaust pipes indicating the bike was running hot too. However, the temp guage registered normal. Here's what we did next:

1. We looked at the battery and the positive terminal/cable at the battery was fairly loose. So we tighted it down.

2. We then ran through all the diagnostics and everything checked out ok including the TPS.

3. We then replaced the plugs- cyl 2 and 3 looked very rich and 1 lean and 4 ok, maybe a bit lean on cyl 1. We then started the bike- immediately the bike sounded better and accelerated 100% better except the engine felt like it had an internal vibration. FJRbluesman's bike feels very 'light' as you zing the RPM in comparison.

4. We then did the TBS, which was pretty good as is but we got it pretty much even. The mercury level was a bit bouncy except cyl 4 (best spark plug too).

5. At this point FJRblueman also noticed that the oil level was pretty high. I changed the oil which felt pretty watery but didn't smell of gas too badly as far as I could tell.

So now the bike is running much better but I'm afraid to ride it other than up and down the street. The engine seems to have the power but the engine still feels like it's got internal vibration and gives it that heavy feeling not light smooth feeling when accelerating. I'm scratching my head as to what happned this morning? could it be the loose battery terminal? or was the spark plugs? is the fuel filter plugged? are the injectors gunked up? are the coils bad? It's a 2005 with only 10k miles on it.

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#2 03HiYoSilver

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Posted 26 November 2011 - 11:50 PM

Sorry to hear about your problems... one thing you can look at is this with your Harness Connections:

http://www.fjrforum....ndpost&p=268059

See if this helps any.

Good Luck with your fix...

#3 FJRay

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 04:54 AM

On engines with running issues I always start with compression and leak down tests. If those aren't right you might as well masturbate in the corner cause it will do more good. If things are good there start with the diagnostics, spark, fuel and air flow
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#4 FJRBluesman

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 07:38 AM

stioc - Great meeting another great person on the forum.

My buddy came by when I got home, another biker dude and excellent wrench. We discussed your issues, here's what we thought....

1) Injector issue, clogged or not getting correct signal for some reason. That connector corrosion perhaps.

2) Coil but doubtful. Any error here we'd think would leave an error code.

3) Maybe the #2,#3 plug wires are bad or something. Would a simple resistance test see into that one?

4) The O2 sensor is bad, possibly sending incorrect information to the ECU and thus giving incorrect injector signal.

In general, something to do with the fuel deliver or management thereof.

I would like to hear ionbeam and or FredW chime in for more information, they really get into the fuel management area pretty good.

Oh yes and let’s throw this into the equation:

The bike is a beautiful 2005 w/ABS, best looking 6 year old FeeJ I've seen, with only 10K miles.

That being said, stioc is the 3rd owner. The original owner lived in New Jersey. Not sure how long it was there, how it was maintained, or stored for the winter. The 2nd owner bought it with about 2K on it (IIRMC), now stioc just bought it. So me thinks too little riding, east coast issues, etc, has taken a toll on this awesome machine.

Another thing:
When I heard stoic pull up on his Feej, it sounded like it had some nasty pipes on it. He blipped the throttle a bit and I saw the cans were stock, I thought he did the trooper mod, but the baffles were still in. I asked if the exhaust had been modded, stioc said no. The bike no kidding sounded like a healthy throaty Triumph triple (that distinct triple sound) when he pulled in. When we swapped the plugs, the bike quieted down to stock and was much smoother.

Even after the plug change and TBS (which already was huge improvement and we both had a surprised look on our faces of the drastic change for the better) at steady throttle (about 3K) in neutral, the bike felt like it had an intermittent miss and vibration, maybe the vibration was due to the miss.


Looking at the photos now indtead of the bright sunlight, I'd say the #1 & #4 plugs look perfect. The blue pipes baffle me, that looks real bloody hot. Although it’s stainless steel, not chrome, and the look pretty bad. stioc says they didn't look like that a few days ago, sooo...?? :unsure:

If it's glogged injectors, it may take a few tank fulls of open riding to clear this out. Not sure how much injectors are if they need to be replaced. It may get better the more you ride it. ;)

Please help out with any info for stioc.

I hate to see someone get such a great ride in such great condition and it has some quirky issue(s) like this. Let’s get stioc loving this machine like we do! :yahoo:
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#5 Cavy

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 08:21 AM

Hot exhaust usually indicates a lean condition. I would suspect low fuel pressure or clogged injectors. Since the TBS went ok it probably doesn't have a vacuum leak. With only 10k on it the fuel may have degraded in the system. As was already stated, you should start with checking compression/ leakdown to verify the engine is mechanically sound. If that checks ok I would start looking at the fuel system. Check fuel pressure and volume to verify the pump is doing what it is supposed to. If that is ok you could swap injectors and see if the problem moves with the injector. One thing you might try is unplugging th O2 sensor and see if things get better or worse. You will probably set a fault in the ECM but it should have a base map for the engine to use in the case of a sensor failure. It might give you some idea if the sensor is causing problems. Just some ideas to try. Good luck.

#6 Denver_FJR

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 10:39 AM

Plugs 2 & 3 are fed by a common coil and their similar condition could indicate an ignition issue. Might look at coil and wires/connection feeding that coil.

Pondering the mystery of the woefully inadequate FJR battery


#7 Brodie

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 04:39 PM

stioc

Here's a real quick check for the obvious...

Take a bright flashlight and look into the fuel tank. Do it just before you fill it. Make sure the bottom of the tank is clean. Any dirt - rust - crap would tend to block the nozzles in the injectors. Have a good look to cross that possibility off the list. At 10k that bike sat a lot, quite likely with gasohol in the tank. That stuff is known to pull the moisture right out of the air.

Here's hopeing your tank is clean.

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#8 stioc

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 08:39 PM

Thank you all for your help, just a quick update. This morning I rode the bike approx 150mi to run the injector cleaner through the tank. I then filled up again, added a Chevron 'fuel system cleaner concentrate plus' and ran that for about 70 miles or so. Clicked off 7k rpm a couple of times and 5k rpm for several dozen miles.

The bike ran ok, had a pretty healthy pull even 2 up however the engine has a buzz/vibration especially above 3k rpm and it gets very annoying after 4k rpm.

Also, in the stop and go traffic (about 85 degrees ambient) the temp guage was showing one bar past the mid point on the temp guage. It would go down to the mid point once the bike started moving at a good clip. Is that normal?

#9 TomInCA

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 08:54 PM

Thank you all for your help, just a quick update. This morning I rode the bike approx 150mi to run the injector cleaner through the tank. I then filled up again, added a Chevron 'fuel system cleaner concentrate plus' and ran that for about 70 miles or so. Clicked off 7k rpm a couple of times and 5k rpm for several dozen miles.

The bike ran ok, had a pretty healthy pull even 2 up however the engine has a buzz/vibration especially above 3k rpm and it gets very annoying after 4k rpm.

Also, in the stop and go traffic (about 85 degrees ambient) the temp guage was showing one bar past the mid point on the temp guage. It would go down to the mid point once the bike started moving at a good clip. Is that normal?


In stop and go traffic, the 2005 will often show 3-bars for heat. When stopped, the heat goes to 4-bars and the fan turns on. Within a half-mile of moving the temp seems to drop to 3 bars and the fan turns off. Sounds normal to me.

I honestly think you will see improvement in performance with more miles and more throttle. Like I said before, I bought my 2005 FJR with only 6477 miles on 12/1 last year, and it has really opened up like a great glass of wine as the miles piled on. I now have just over 27K. I have some basic maintenance to do as a result of those miles, but the bike is running PERFECTLY. I think you are doing just the right thing, and props to Bluesman for the assist! :yahoo:

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#10 FJRBluesman

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 08:57 PM

Thank you all for your help, just a quick update. This morning I rode the bike approx 150mi to run the injector cleaner through the tank. I then filled up again, added a Chevron 'fuel system cleaner concentrate plus' and ran that for about 70 miles or so. Clicked off 7k rpm a couple of times and 5k rpm for several dozen miles.

The bike ran ok, had a pretty healthy pull even 2 up however the engine has a buzz/vibration especially above 3k rpm and it gets very annoying after 4k rpm.

Also, in the stop and go traffic (about 85 degrees ambient) the temp guage was showing one bar past the mid point on the temp guage. It would go down to the mid point once the bike started moving at a good clip. Is that normal?

stioc - For now keep running it with a few more tank fulls and see if the results change. Some others have posted some good points on the coil for #'s 2 & 3. Also checking the tank for goo.

As far as your temp goes, sounds normalish. Somewhere on the forum they have posted general temps for each of the bars and about the temp range for the fan to kick on. In your case at four bars, the fan should have kicked on. On my old Feej it kicked on as soon as the fourth bar appeared. My newer to me Feej it takes about another 5-10 seconds on the fourth bar before the fan kicks in.

From Gen1 Bin-O-Facts:
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Fahrenheit - 1 bar 104-140, 2 bars 140-176, 3 bars 176-212, 4 bars 212-230, 5 bars 230-248, and 6 bars 248 and up.

Celsius - 1 bar 40-60, 2 bars 60-80, 3 bars 80-100, 4 bars 100-110, 5 bars 110-120, and 6 bars 120 and up.


Good luck and keep us posted. ;)
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#11 Donal

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 06:49 AM

The 'bluing' of the exhaust pipes is definitely not normal on this machine :unsure: Looking at the colour of the plugs I would suspect you are overfuelling for some reason :unsure: The excess fuel is being burnt off in the exhaust system, leading to overheating and causing the pipes to turn blue. Just my two pence worth :rolleyes:

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#12 Afast03nNJ

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 07:53 AM

Those plugs definitely do not point to a lean condition.
Which TBS did you do? The "un-authorized" sync is definitely the way to go.
Did you check the air filter for any unwelcome guests?
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#13 stioc

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:44 AM

Based on the info you guys have provided it does seem to make sense about the two very rich/fouled plugs, especially being on the same coil. However, I now attribute that and the subsequent bluing of the exhaust to the bad battery terminal connection; it was injecting gas but the coil didn't have enough juice to burn the fuel. So essentially I was running on two cylinders which would explain loss of power from the stop lights yet still driveable, barely. I'm surprised that this didn't throw the check engine light on as the O2 sensor should've picked up the rich exhaust?

At this point, however, my main issue with the bike is the vibration when accelerating and not having a light zingy throttle. Could be the coils or the O2 sensor. I'd hate to throw parts at it so I may just bring the bike to the dealer and have them look at it.

I really want to like the FJR but comparing it to my Ninja 650R (mini-ST) I'm fairly disappointed. The Ninja has virtually no vibration, zings to the redline in a heartbeat and just feels more refined even though it's a cheaper and smaller bike. Maybe it's the difference of the parallel twins vs. 4cyl? or the fact that the Ninja is a 2009 with full digital display and very nicely mapped ECU. I was really hoping the FJR would be even more polished and refined but sadly that's not the case for me. Sorry for venting a bit.

FJRBluesman, thanks so much for the continued help and support; I appreciate it very much.

I'll check the gas tank out and look into some other suggestions I've recieved so far such as unplugging the O2 sensor.

Edited by stioc, 28 November 2011 - 10:47 AM.


#14 stioc

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:47 AM

sorry, didn't mean to double post.

Edited by stioc, 28 November 2011 - 10:48 AM.


#15 Fred W

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:51 AM

Those plugs definitely do not point to a lean condition.
Which TBS did you do? The "un-authorized" sync is definitely the way to go.
Did you check the air filter for any unwelcome guests?


Exactly. #2 and #3 look like they were running very rich. #1 and #4 look fine (not lean). The coincidence that 2 and 3 run off the same coil is too much to ignore.

The blueing of the exhaust pipe is after the catalytic convertor, so that high temp may have been from the cat attempting to burn-off the fuel rich exhaust from those two cylinders. IOW from the same condition that fouled your plugs.

You may have already corrected that when you replaced the plugs, or maybe not. The roughness may just be the need for an unauthorized TBS (balance the throttle plates, not just at idle), or it may be indicative of some continuing problem with those two cylinders.

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#16 FJReady

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 02:53 PM

stioc,

If your feejer doesn't feel silky smooth with lots more thrust than your 650R, then there is something wrong with your FJR. I rode a 650R for a while and I loved the handling and lightness, but it definitely has that parallel twin low end thumperness character. And it pulls well from down low but the FJR should feel like its pulling twice as hard and be noticeable smoother doing it. So keep on with your investigations and fixes. Us '05 owners know what a treat you're in for when it gets back to healthy.

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#17 BobbyBlue

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:05 PM

Stioc,
Chillax man, you're at the right place... give yourself some time to adjust to the feej...alot of us got bikes we waited for, only to find them almost unridable over 100 miles or less...some patience and a little muscle memory adjustment will see it get alot better...eat a BLUEBERRY muffin or somethin' and be thankful this board has most answers and absolutely great peeps too...you ask alot of heavy fukin questions there for a new guy too...and we love ya for it...sorry i got no mechanical advice but i can tell ya, it will be worth these teething pains to get this most wonderful machine right...just be patient with her and yourself and in thrust ye shall trust !



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#18 carlson_mn

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 04:47 PM

I'm going to throw this out there as a small chance but worth looking at, I know with some cars if they are running particularly rich like your 2/3 cylinders are, it can do damage to the catalytic converters and cause them to brittle and break apart. In turn, small pieces can be sucked into the engine (unlikely on an FJR but I don't know), and score the cylinder walls. That happened to my Nissan 3.5L.

The reason I say this is because of the comments about the exhaust sound of your bike being rough.
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#19 Ignacio

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 05:09 PM

....damage to the catalytic converters and cause them to brittle and break apart. In turn, small pieces can be sucked into the engine (unlikely on an FJR but I don't know), and score the cylinder walls. That happened to my Nissan 3.5L.

I have to ask....how could chunks of ceramic possibly flow upstream against fairly high pressure exhaust gas and uphill a foot (or more on the Nissan)? Color me VERY skeptical. :glare:

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#20 carlson_mn

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 05:21 PM


....damage to the catalytic converters and cause them to brittle and break apart. In turn, small pieces can be sucked into the engine (unlikely on an FJR but I don't know), and score the cylinder walls. That happened to my Nissan 3.5L.

I have to ask....how could chunks of ceramic possibly flow upstream against fairly high pressure exhaust gas and uphill a foot (or more on the Nissan)? Color me VERY skeptical. :glare:


Well on these Nissan VQ35 engines it's happened to a lot of them and is acknowledged by Nissan, the cats are stuffed right into the headers close to the exhaust ports, they overheat and start to break apart and pieces are breathed back into the engine both through vacuum and also through the EGR valve. Remember, exhaust valves have a bit of overlap and breathe in a bit of exhaust gas on most engines.
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