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Testing a 'crate' engine


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#1 dcarver

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:50 PM

I just purchased a supposedly young 5k 2008 engine from FleaBay.

Before going through installation agony, I want to perform a compression and leak down test, bought test gear today.

So what's it take to apply juice to the starter motor for several 30 second bursts?
Car battery with 10 gage wire directly to starter motor?

..do any other circuits exist preventing this scenario from working?

My plan is to test the engine while still 'crated'. If it fails, back to the vendor it goes. And yes, I'll put oil in the crankcase first. :P
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#2 wfooshee

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:10 PM

If you try to just touch the wire to the terminal, no switch, you'll get weld marks and limited current flow as too much current tries to go through the small contact area you end up with. Lotta amps going through that thing as it cranks, like 65 to 80.

Easiest would be a good-sized knife switch, so you can tighten all the wires down with good terminals. Problem with the knife switch is that you can close it and it stays connected no matter what. When the aliens pick that moment to abduct you, the starter will burn up because it will run until the battery dies. (In other words, there's no fail-safe just by letting go, the way there would be with a push button on a relay.)
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#3 AuburnFJR

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:14 PM

If you try to just touch the wire to the terminal, no switch, you'll get weld marks and limited current flow as too much current tries to go through the small contact area you end up with. Lotta amps going through that thing as it cranks, like 65 to 80.

Easiest would be a good-sized knife switch, so you can tighten all the wires down with good terminals. Problem with the knife switch is that you can close it and it stays connected no matter what. When the aliens pick that moment to abduct you, the starter will burn up because it will run until the battery dies. (In other words, there's no fail-safe just by letting go, the way there would be with a push button on a relay.)



I would use a momentary contact switch to control a relay that is rate for the current so you can let go and have it stop.

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#4 FJRay

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:34 PM

Slow down Don. You can get a basic Ford style starter solenoid and a push button for less than 10.00. It's easy to wire up and when you are done with it you will have a new tool in the inventory.
Make sure there is oil in it and spin it a bit before you start testing. Dont be surprised if it is a bit low because it's been sitting. Second test would be with a little oil in the cylinders and it should be higher.
When leak down testing the cylinder being tested has to be on TDC and you have to hold it there so you will need the timing plug out to get a socket on it.
Did you get the right test adaptor for thr FJR head. If you need anything I have 3-4 of each and I can get them to you before the engine gets there.
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#5 dcarver

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:44 PM

Slow down?
Really?
I've been riding a DL650 so long now *it* seems FAST! :blink:
I have the need for speed!

I'll source a 'remote' starter of some sort and follow your advice, Ray.

Since I plan to check valve clearance pre-install, the timing cover will be off, making it easy for the leak down test. I want to see cam condition prior to uncrating too.

What adapter size is needed for the fjr?
Here's what I purchased
Comp tester
Leak Down Tester

And, most importantly, Thank You so much for the offer to help! :yahoo:
Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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#6 Fairlaner

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:11 PM

Ray the install weekend has changed i will call you Monday or Tuesday to discuss.

R
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#7 Donal

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 03:10 AM

How about using your existing bike's starter circuit? Just take 2 wires from the starter relay to your 'new' engine :rolleyes:

Don

Look before you leap may be good advice - but if you really intend leaping, don't spend too long looking...........


#8 ionbeam

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 06:30 AM

Why turn the engine with the starter motor? To do a leak-down test you are going to have to pull the crank cover on the right side anyway. Remove the crank cover, pull the plugs, use a big wrench on the crank (at the pickup rotor) and rotate the engine by hand. Listen and feel. The engine should rotate smoothly with no mechanical noises like clicks, ticks or dings. If it passes this basic test do the leak-down test. A cold engine will have a slightly higher leak-down and lower compression than a warm engine. If the engine passes the leak-down test I would consider a compression test not necessary.

Ok, let's say you have your engine sitting on the floor. Dr Frankenstein has a car battery nearby, a set of starter/booster cables hooked to the FJR engine's starter solenoid, the battery and a $10 Ford starter button set to go. With thunder in the background and lightning flickering around the garage Dr Frankenstein chortles to himself and pushes THE BUTTON to bring it to life. Electrons rush to the starter relay (activated by the $10 Ford button). The starter relay slams home the shorting bar allowing the rampaging electrons to flood into the starter motor. The starter clutch instantly engages, spins the starter gears which turn the stator shaft. The stator shaft is the crank on the other side of the engine. This instantly imparts rotational forces trying to move large masses of metal. The rotational force causes movement creating a strong reactionary force in one direction when the reciprocating assembly and engine clutch plates resist instant acceleration as the starter gears apply torque to the crank shaft. Quicker'n you can say OH CRAP the engine rocks over onto it's side and the only thing that prevents it from doing a propeller imitation on the clutch cover is the battery cables being ripped off the engine. The battery cables will almost certainly come off, the question is if they will stay connected to the battery long enough to whip the battery around the garage too.

Or not, it's just a thought.

The other thing you won't be able to check for is popping out of second gear.

Considering the year of the engine, you may want to do a preemptive clutch soak.



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#9 dcarver

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:17 AM

Why turn the engine with the starter motor? To do a leak-down test you are going to have to pull the crank cover on the right side anyway. Remove the crank cover, pull the plugs, use a big wrench on the crank (at the pickup rotor) and rotate the engine by hand. Listen and feel. The engine should rotate smoothly with no mechanical noises like clicks, ticks or dings. If it passes this basic test do the leak-down test. A cold engine will have a slightly higher leak-down and lower compression than a warm engine. If the engine passes the leak-down test I would consider a compression test not necessary.

Ok, let's say you have your engine sitting on the floor. Dr Frankenstein has a car battery nearby, a set of starter/booster cables hooked to the FJR engine's starter solenoid, the battery and a $10 Ford starter button set to go. With thunder in the background and lightning flickering around the garage Dr Frankenstein chortles to himself and pushes THE BUTTON to bring it to life. Electrons rush to the starter relay (activated by the $10 Ford button). The starter relay slams home the shorting bar allowing the rampaging electrons to flood into the starter motor. The starter clutch instantly engages, spins the starter gears which turn the stator shaft. The stator shaft is the crank on the other side of the engine. This instantly imparts rotational forces trying to move large masses of metal. The rotational force causes movement creating a strong reactionary force in one direction when the reciprocating assembly and engine clutch plates resist instant acceleration as the starter gears apply torque to the crank shaft. Quicker'n you can say OH CRAP the engine rocks over onto it's side and the only thing that prevents it from doing a propeller imitation on the clutch cover is the battery cables being ripped off the engine. The battery cables will almost certainly come off, the question is if they will stay connected to the battery long enough to whip the battery around the garage too.

Or not, it's just a thought.

The other thing you won't be able to check for is popping out of second gear.

Considering the year of the engine, you may want to do a preemptive clutch soak.



I actually thought of the old for every action there's a reaction thing and had a solution in mind!
(Make FairLaner sit on the motor while Dr. Franknstein hits the button! :P )

Good idea on the clutch soak. The seller reports the engine was removed from frame 8 months ago and has been sitting inside an 'industrial building'.
Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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#10 El Toro

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 09:37 AM

We've bought quite a few salvage engines, some from fleabay, and several from Autocyclers in Madisonville, TN. Ones I specifically remember include a pair of ST1100s, four YZF R-6s, one TL-1000, a VFR800, some Diesels (one German single and one Daihatsu triple) ... there have been others.

In any event, we always take our chances and hope for the best. To really check one out thoroughly, you've got to mount it and run it. We have a cooling tower, and we build test stands for whatever we're going to try to run. (This is an educational activity for senior and graduate level mechanical engineering students).

Of the engines we've bought as salvage engines, there have been only two that were misrepresented. One was the German single cylinder Diesel. It had mechanical fuel injection like in the old days. No ECU. Everything controlled by cams, springs and mechanical links. It was seriously misadjusted internally for the injection control, and that's probably why it was sold on fleabay as "new in the crate, never run." It took quite a bit of detective work and some experimentation to get that one running reliably. The second was one of the YZF R-6 engines, and clearly one of the cylinders had been home to some water during its storage period from the wreck until the time it was sold to us. This was a disappointment, and we ended up using this one as a display. We also made a video of the dissassembly and reassembly.
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#11 Fairlaner

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:58 AM

Sounds like you are gonna be busy before we get there.......

R
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#12 Roy Epperson

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:20 PM

Sounds like you are gonna be busy before we get there.......

R


When is the party? Or is it Don riding the bucking engine?

#13 RadioHowie

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:26 PM


Sounds like you are gonna be busy before we get there.......

R


When is the party? Or is it Don riding the bucking engine?



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#14 Fairlaner

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:20 PM

Hows the tracking number working?

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#15 dcarver

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:35 PM

Harrisburg, PA, United States 25/02/2012 2:30 P.M. Departure 364114 OVZZ
Harrisburg, PA, United States 24/02/2012 11:00 P.M. Shipment has arrived at a Service Center 265466 OVNT
Bethlehem, PA, United States 24/02/2012 8:52 P.M. Departure 265466 OVNT
Bethlehem, PA, United States 24/02/2012 4:42 P.M. Shipment has been picked up 0 DK04

Looks like after the truck picks it up, no updates.. :huh:
Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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#16 wfooshee

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:13 PM

There won't be any updates until it gets scanned again, after driving it across 17 states to get to your Republik. When the next center unloads it, there'll be a scan, and the website will update the day after it arrives at your house.
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#17 BikerGeek99

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:18 PM

Carver & Co. - we NEED a webcam up and running when this event unfolds.

You know - for posterity.


Ok, let's say you have your engine sitting on the floor. Dr Frankenstein has a car battery nearby, ... <snip-a-rooney...>


Cripe, 'beam...
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#18 HotRodZilla

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 07:52 PM

There won't be any updates until it gets scanned again, after driving it across 17 states to get to your Republik. When the next center unloads it, there'll be a scan, and the website will update the day after it arrives at your house.


Unless the truck crashes into a lake and that heavy motor sinks to the bottom of it. Then it definitely wont get scanned! Just sayin'...Weirder shit has happened.
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#19 wfooshee

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:02 PM

Yeah, I had an order of gear when I first got my feej, never showed, never showed, never showed, tracking never updated.

After a couple weeks I finally got a reply from the vendor that a truck had burned, and my shipment was among the lost goods, and they were scrambling to get me new stuff on the way.

So yeah, shit happens.

Not to Carver, though. Right?
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#20 dcarver

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:42 AM

Wow, per UPS the motor has arrived in Santa Maria CA
"Santa Maria, CA, United States 03/01/2012 8:13 A.M. Shipment has arrived at a Service Center"

EDIT
Just called UPS Freight, it will be delivered to my doorstep - awaiting phone call to arrange date and time.
Woot Woot!
Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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