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KrZy8 no start


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#1 dcarver

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:56 AM

Once on yesterday's post rebuild virgin ride, hit the starter button, no starter motor action at all. Hit it again and off we go.

This morning, it took 8 times before action. Once running, all is great, it's just the getting it running part..

Note that Hal experienced the same symptom when he worked on KrZy8 last July before the NERDS run. Hal removed Brodies ignition harness and the problem disappeared. I replaced the relay in the BH (Brodie harness) and haven't had any issues until yesterday. Of course, KrZy8 has been down for some time.

This morning, I could hear the relay clacking, but no spin. At work, I tried again, thinking maybe something associated with heat might be the difference (cold vs hot start) but the same symptoms again, failed 3 out of 5 times. Messing with it, I found if I first held the start button then did the key, it worked 5 out of 5 times.

I don't think it's starter motor, as the problem has existed in both old and new engine. The ground wire to engine was just installed 3 days ago, so I'm Assuming it's ok.. The BH relay is is new as of 7/2011 with *that* many cycles on it.... The ignition switch was replaced a couple of years ago, and everything else works as advertised (gauge sweep, lights, etc). The actual 'start' switch, I've never messed with it, but the 'action' still seems smooth and correct, fwiw. The battery is several years old, but spins the motor big time one it gets going..

?? What's downstream of the BH relay? ? Is there another bigger relay somewhere? I recall the wire leading to the starter motor is much larger than coming off of the BH relay, so I know there's something in between.

My first guess troubleshooting will be
  • Clean all BH contacts, check for wiring issues
  • Replace relay with new
  • Flush ignition switch with LPS 1
  • Cycle ignition switch about a bazillion times

Any other ideas or thoughts? :huh: :blink: :unsure:
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#2 HotRodZilla

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:08 AM

What about your neutral safety switch. Maybe the replaced BH relay was just coincidence?? I'd clean up that switch. It has to be something simple.

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#3 Burnspot

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

Double check connections to make sure all is secure? With the amount of work that went on over the weekend, it'd be relatively easy to overlook something like that.

Edit - Something could've come loose during the "checkride".

#4 TomInCA

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:18 AM

Any difference with kickstand up or down, check sidestand switch
Startup in neutral but not in gear, clutch switch.

HRZ may be onto something.

How old is the battery?

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#5 huron52

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:21 AM

This may OR may not be your problem.

I have been told by my mechanic that fuel injected Yamahas don't like to start up and then run for a very short time then shut them off. He told me if I start it up I should let it run for at least 5 minutes. Otherwise they tend to foul the plugs.
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#6 dcarver

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:43 AM

What about your neutral safety switch. Maybe the replaced BH relay was just coincidence?? I'd clean up that switch. It has to be something simple.

Good idea HRZ. I can tell you the wire colors for that switch! :blink:


Double check connections to make sure all is secure? With the amount of work that went on over the weekend, it'd be relatively easy to overlook something like that.

Edit - Something could've come loose during the "checkride".

Yep, will check all connections I can easily get to.. Don't think it's associated with the 'checkride', it's done this non-spin act before..


Any difference with kickstand up or down, check sidestand switch
Startup in neutral but not in gear, clutch switch.

HRZ may be onto something.

How old is the battery?

Battery is at least 2 years old, IIRC? Which probably means more than 2.. I marked the date on the battery using Carver Tape, and of course the date was rubbed out by the panel cover. Sigh. FWIW, the 2006 original battery still works to crank a 14 hp Sears riding mower!


This may OR may not be your problem.

I have been told by my mechanic that fuel injected Yamahas don't like to start up and then run for a very short time then shut them off. He told me if I start it up I should let it run for at least 5 minutes. Otherwise they tend to foul the plugs.

Yep, but only if the start! :P
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#7 Fred W

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

Don,

If you are hearing the big starter relay clicking when you press the starter button, but the starter isn't running, the most likely problem is the starter relay contacts. If you weren't hearing the starter relay clicking it could be a whole host of safety interlock related issues, but if the relay is energizing (and clicking) then all of those are moot.

The contacts of a starter relay have to carry a lot of current. It is not all that unusual for them to get crusty and become intermittent.

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#8 Brodie

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:48 AM

Don
Big question...

When you turn the key the gages make the sweep on the dash. That tells you that power is getting to the system. The times you thumbed the start button, did they sweep again?

This morning, I could hear the relay clacking, but no spin. At work, I tried again, thinking maybe something associated with heat might be the difference (cold vs hot start) but the same symptoms again, failed 3 out of 5 times. Messing with it, I found if I first held the start button then did the key, it worked 5 out of 5 times.


Was it the starter relay clacking? Or was it the 70 amp relay on the Ignition Relay Harness clicking - and causing gage sweeps. You may want to look into the starter relay next to your coils. Perhaps it needs servicing. You may want to trace every connector from this starter relay back to the fuse.

If it helps to isolate the problem, try taking the Ignition Relay Harness out of the circuit again. You do have the recall ignition switch - right?

Good luck
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#9 yamafitter

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:53 AM

There are two relays associated with the starting circuit, the main starter relay and the starter cutoff relay. The starter cutoff relay will block out the signal going to the main starter relay if any of the start permissives are not met. I am suspicious of your start switch though given your explanation. A good cleaning with a quality contact cleaner may solve the issue.
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#10 Fred W

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:58 AM

There are two relays associated with the starting circuit, the main starter relay and the starter cutoff relay. The starter cutoff relay will block out the signal going to the main starter relay if any of the start permissives are not met. I am suspicious of your start switch though given your explanation. A good cleaning with a quality contact cleaner may solve the issue.


If the problem was the starter switch or the starter interlock relay then when he pressed the switch button he wouldn't hear the starter relay clacking. I'm still betting on the starter relay.

If he wants to get fancy he could hook up a voltmeter on the business side of the starter relay and look for 12V when the button is pressed and the relay energizes but no starter spinney.

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#11 Brodie

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:00 AM

Don

Another silly question...

When was the last time you took your right switch pod apart and cleaned the contact under the start button? Posted Image


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#12 FJRay

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:06 AM

It's not my fault cause it worked when I left :P . Lots of good ideas here Don. I also would suspect starter relay if the guages sweep every time. That relay has had the shit beat out of it on your road and they are a mechanical thing.
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#13 AuburnFJR

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:24 AM

One other thing to check that I had a problem with - Check the ground wire connection on the Brodie Harness. On mine, the bolt I put the ground under to groudn to the frame came loose and caused the intermitten starting issue you describe. This happened within 500 miles of installing the harness. I eliminated the bolt connection to the frame and lengthened the wire to go directly to the battery.

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#14 dcarver

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:32 AM

Don,

If you are hearing the big starter relay clicking when you press the starter button, but the starter isn't running, the most likely problem is the starter relay contacts. If you weren't hearing the starter relay clicking it could be a whole host of safety interlock related issues, but if the relay is energizing (and clicking) then all of those are moot.

The contacts of a starter relay have to carry a lot of current. It is not all that unusual for them to get crusty and become intermittent.

Not sure which relay I'm hearing. Could be Brodies or the starter relay.
Searching the forum now for starter relay location..
Clicky 1
Clicky 2
Clicky 3
Probably the best no-start tech advice thread yet


4YR-81940-02-00 STARTER RELAY ASSY
Walked away Posted ImagePosted Image Is it really crashing if you don't fall down?--
I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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#15 AuburnFJR

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 09:48 AM

Brodies is easy to eliminate as a problem, by just unplugging it and plugging in your switch directly.

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#16 Fred W

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:06 AM


Don,

If you are hearing the big starter relay clicking when you press the starter button, but the starter isn't running, the most likely problem is the starter relay contacts. If you weren't hearing the starter relay clicking it could be a whole host of safety interlock related issues, but if the relay is energizing (and clicking) then all of those are moot.

The contacts of a starter relay have to carry a lot of current. It is not all that unusual for them to get crusty and become intermittent.

Not sure which relay I'm hearing. Could be Brodies or the starter relay.
Searching the forum now for starter relay location..
Clicky 1
Clicky 2
Clicky 3
Probably the best no-start tech advice thread yet


4YR-81940-02-00 STARTER RELAY ASSY


The only relay that should be clicking when you push the red starter button is the Starter relay. And the links you posted correctly show that it is up by the battery.

Brodie's relay (you know where that is) would click when you turn the key switch on.
The starter interlock relay (under the seat) would energize when you put the bike into neutral, or when you lift the kickstand and pull in the clutch.

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#17 snikr

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:13 AM

Sorry to hear of this "issue" Don. Looks like you have lots of "help" and things to check. Good luck.

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#18 dcarver

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:45 AM



Don,

If you are hearing the big starter relay clicking when you press the starter button, but the starter isn't running, the most likely problem is the starter relay contacts. If you weren't hearing the starter relay clicking it could be a whole host of safety interlock related issues, but if the relay is energizing (and clicking) then all of those are moot.

The contacts of a starter relay have to carry a lot of current. It is not all that unusual for them to get crusty and become intermittent.

Not sure which relay I'm hearing. Could be Brodies or the starter relay.
Searching the forum now for starter relay location..
Clicky 1
Clicky 2
Clicky 3
Probably the best no-start tech advice thread yet


4YR-81940-02-00 STARTER RELAY ASSY


The only relay that should be clicking when you push the red starter button is the Starter relay. And the links you posted correctly show that it is up by the battery.

Brodie's relay (you know where that is) would click when you turn the key switch on.
The starter interlock relay (under the seat) would energize when you put the bike into neutral, or when you lift the kickstand and pull in the clutch.

Yes, but of course! Great advice. Just now, click no start, held dtart button down, approx 2 seconds later she spun up. JIC, new start relay ordered, cheap enough....

Thanks Fred!
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I wouldn't change a fucking thing; I've lived hard, played hard, and I ain't done yet. I've paid some severe penalties along the way, but the rewards have been so much greater; even if for just have participating in the game of life with utmost abandon. It's not who rides the furthest in a day, but rather in a lifetime. CBA member #1, IBA #31845 and very proud of both.
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#19 RadioHowie

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:47 AM

Oh sure....throw parts at it!!! Don't try actually "fixing" something!!!

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#20 mcatrophy

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 12:09 PM

Once on yesterday's post rebuild virgin ride, hit the starter button, no starter motor action at all. Hit it again and off we go.
...
Any other ideas or thoughts? :huh: :blink: :unsure:

Not really, but here's a simplified wiring diagram of the starter interlocks and stuff. This is for the AS(AE) but it's not much different. Might help in probing.
(Click on image for larger view)
Posted Image

...
The starter interlock relay (under the seat) would energize when you put the bike into neutral, or when you lift the kickstand and pull in the clutch.

On a GenII it's in the front:
Posted Image Posted Image

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