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Throttle Spring Release on AE model - Issue with complete stop now


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#1 NC Ryder

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 09:43 AM

I'm the second owner of this 2006 AE, I don't believe the prior owner did the throttle spring release so I followed the instructions on this site. Acceleration works much smoother now, love it. Decelerating requires pushing the throttle all the way forward, which I can get used to. It's the complete stopping I'm having some issues with.

Some background first. With the AE, and I believe this is part of the auto clutch workings, there seems to be a 1st gear and a 1 'low'. In first gear when I brake it will reach a point where it feels like it is about to stall and then it automatically (without any intervention from me) seemingly downshifts into a 1 Low. This allows (at least for me) better control for low speed manuevering.

With that said, what I see now after the throttle spring release is when I start to come to a stop it does that downshift to what I'm calling 1 Low, but that it still wants to keep moving even with the throttle rolled all the way forward. I have to stay on the brake for 1 Low to completely disengage the forward movement now, vs before when I was off the throttle it would simply come to a stop on its own.

Anyone else seeing that after the throttle spring release? Is there another adjustment I need to make? And, for my own knowledge, what's the right terminology for this '1 Low'? :D

Thanks!

#2 bucky

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:16 AM

Not quite understanding what you mean by 1st gear and 1 low. What does happen (in any gear with the AE), is when the rpm drops below about 1000, the auto clutch will disengage (like pulling in the clutch lever with the regular shifter). You are then sort of free wheeling. The AE never shifts by itself. It is not an automatic, but an electrically shifted manual with computer controls for clutching and some other issues, but not shifting. For example, the computer won't let you downshift to 1st gear above a certain speed.

Sounds to me like you have some throttle spring issues that need to be taken care of, if nothing else but for safety reasons. When you take your hand off the throttle, it should snap closed. Not have to be manually rolled back with your hand to a closed position. Maybe to much unwinding done??

#3 NC Ryder

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:26 AM

I put it in the closest terms I can make a parallel comparison to, that what I see in my Jeep Wrangler. In 1st gear I drive under normal speeds for that gear, however once I get slow enough (say 5mph or less) it will stall. Going into 1 Low it is still 1st gear but the actual gearing is lower. I can crawl from 1 to 5mph without stalling or issue. This is what I see on the bike as well, that with it showing in 1st gear it will be able to move down to around 5mph but then really starts to 'labor'. I then feel the same process of the bike being shifted, but it does this automatically. And after it does I can do very low speed manuevers without the fear of stalling.

I do understand its an autoclutch, not an automatic, I shift it for all other gears from 1 to 5. I've had this bike for 3 years and its been like this ever since I bought it and prior to the throttle spring release change I just made. The only other non-standard piece of equipment that may be related (but I dont see how) is a Power Commander. As I said before, it physically 'shifts', you can feel it in the bike - not just the throttle smoothing the the PC does.

I'd be interested hearing from other AE owners - If others have ideas, please let me know, thanks!

#4 ScottyUSN

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:39 AM

The throttle on the FJR should not need assistance returning to zero. if you release it, it should snap back with an audible 'POP". Anything less is an accident waiting to happen, and get it into the shop ASAP.

The AE from the factory will engage at 1800 RPM (on the way up from being in idle). The bike should disengage at 1300 RPM (on the way down) from engaged to idle. This is why with slow speed manuering the majority of AE owners will utililize the rear brake in order to keep the bike above 1300 rpm which keeps the clutch engaged while at a crawl.

It might be helpful if you can replace your perception of 1st gear and low 1 with RPM. What your bike is idling at when warmed up, etc..

My AE's idle happy place is 1050RPM

#5 ScottyUSN

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:48 AM

I am assuming your "!st gear low" is referring to drive shaft engagement not the clutch...

Example: If your bike is on center stand in neutral the wheel moves freely by hand but not by itself. If your bike is on center stand in 1st gear rear wheel floating, it is going to roll forward even though the clutch is completely disengaged, but some slight resistance will stop this motion.



#6 El Toro

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

I used to own an '06 AE.

Reinforcing what Bucky said .... there is no 1 Low. There is 1, and then the position below that is Neutral.

It sounds like you've got some potentially dangerous problems. I don't know if they're of your own creation, but if they are, and if you are uncertain about whether there is a dual range transmission on the AE, that suggests that you could be in over your head. I think you really need to either find a competent forum friend nearby who can help you out in person, or maybe a visit to your friendly neighborhood Yamaha dealer could be in order. Don't mess around with a throttle that won't close on its own, or a transmission that appears to have some gears that its not supposed to have.
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#7 NC Ryder

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 10:54 AM

I am assuming your "!st gear low" is referring to drive shaft engagement not the clutch...

Example: If your bike is on center stand in neutral the wheel moves freely by hand but not by itself. If your bike is on center stand in 1st gear rear wheel floating, it is going to roll forward even though the clutch is completely disengaged, but some slight resistance will stop this motion.


That sounds correct. Again in first gear I can hold down the brake and once the bike slows to a low speed (and the engine sounds like its laboring), it 'feels' like a downshift occurs (the engine quiets for a moment and then picks up again, like after any other 'shift') and the RPMs jump up again to allow low speed manuevering. From 0 and accelerating I don't feel this extra 'shift' prior to going into second gear, only when coming to a stop. That what you are describing?

#8 gixxerjasen

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

Just thinking out loud here. Is it possible that the previous owner adjusted the clutch engagement point? Seems I recall seeing that there's a mode you can get into to raise or lower that. If that's set low and the idle is set high, I could possibly see that it could be trying to slip while he's stopped if the idle is above that point? Again, just thinking out loud and all.

Of course, on thinking of this, changing the spring shouldn't have affected this at all though, this problem would have existed beforehand, unless something got mucked up with the cable in the process.

Edited by gixxerjasen, 09 April 2012 - 11:52 AM.


#9 majicmaker

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:01 PM

I'm thinking the previous owner did the 1 turn unwind and the NC did another one. Just a wild guess. Undo your 1 unwind and see what happens! :unsure:
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#10 NC Ryder

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 12:08 PM

I'm thinking the previous owner did the 1 turn unwind and the NC did another one. Just a wild guess. Undo your 1 unwind and see what happens! :unsure:


Prior to the unwind, it would:
1) Come to a complete stop (without the brake required)
2) Still experienced the 'downshift' in 1st gear at very slow speeds


Any easy way to rewind that spring a single turn? I can do that and it will address #1 I'm sure, but given #2 was occuring prior anyway I don't see how that would make a difference for that particular one...

#11 majicmaker

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 03:47 PM


I'm thinking the previous owner did the 1 turn unwind and the NC did another one. Just a wild guess. Undo your 1 unwind and see what happens! :unsure:


Prior to the unwind, it would:
1) Come to a complete stop (without the brake required)
2) Still experienced the 'downshift' in 1st gear at very slow speeds


Any easy way to rewind that spring a single turn? I can do that and it will address #1 I'm sure, but given #2 was occuring prior anyway I don't see how that would make a difference for that particular one...

Try unwinding it one turn anyway and see what happens. Maybe #1 & #2 have nothing to do with eachother. At least you'll know. :unsure:
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#12 escapefjrtist

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:14 PM

Thinking out loud here...

Sounds like it *could* be a disengagement problem with the clutch. Sticky clutch plates or actuator issue [bleeding needed] since it has been doing it for three years? If the bike labors while slowing down and then feels like it "shifts" down this could be interpreted as the clutch releasing...

Just my $.02

Definitely get it fixed before something bad happens.

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#13 Bustanut joker

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Posted 09 April 2012 - 07:37 PM

Thinking out loud here...

Sounds like it *could* be a disengagement problem with the clutch. Sticky clutch plates or actuator issue [bleeding needed] since it has been doing it for three years? If the bike labors while slowing down and then feels like it "shifts" down this could be interpreted as the clutch releasing...

Just my $.02

Definitely get it fixed before something bad happens.

--G



I'm with George I don't believe it's anything to do with the unwind as it's been stated the problem was there prior..
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#14 NC Ryder

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 04:47 PM

The AE from the factory will engage at 1800 RPM (on the way up from being in idle). The bike should disengage at 1300 RPM (on the way down) from engaged to idle. This is why with slow speed manuering the majority of AE owners will utililize the rear brake in order to keep the bike above 1300 rpm which keeps the clutch engaged while at a crawl.


Update from today:

While doing the advanced TBS today I went ahead and undid the spring release. That only took me 1 12" ziptie, 4 hours of time, and an infinity of patience.

When done I took it for a ride and believe the following to be true:
1) Previous owner also did a spring unwind, as the throttle spring 'hook' was barely resting on the catch before I rewound it
2) When decelerating there is the aforementioned 'pop' and there is no longer the need to push the throttle all the way forward
3) When coming to a complete stop it still requires braking to get it down to the 1300 clutch disengagement, but less than when I had the release done yesterday. I am willing to bet it I wound the spring one more time to the stock setting this would be even less noticeable

So I think ScottyUSN is right on target. When taking off the clutch engagement is at 1800. As I decelerate the disengagement is at 1300. I believe this is what's happening in the scenario that I was referring to initially as '1 Low'. When I am in first and need to make a tight turn, I ride the brake until about 10mph (1300 on the tach), it feels like a 'downshift' but this must simply be the clutch disengaging, then reengaging at higher RPMs to allow slow navigation. So I was always in first gear, simply the clutch was disengaging / reengaging. Sound right?

So a last question to AE owners. If you come to a rolling stop, without braking, does the clutch still disengage and the bike come to a stop on its own? Or does it still require holding the brake to force the disengagement? And was this with the stock throttle setup or with the release done? Thanks.

#15 wnyfjr

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:12 PM

When I come to a stop (downshifting to 2nd, I often wait for first until I'm stopped), I can feel the point at which the clutch kicks in, and after that I am 'freewheeling', coasting, whatever you want to call it. Granted, I hardly ever come to a stop without using brakes.

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#16 majicmaker

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:12 PM

When I come to a stop (downshifting to 2nd, I often wait for first until I'm stopped), I can feel the point at which the clutch kicks in, and after that I am 'freewheeling', coasting, whatever you want to call it. Granted, I hardly ever come to a stop without using brakes.

This is Correct!! :ph34r:
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#17 mcatrophy

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 07:49 AM

...
So a last question to AE owners. If you come to a rolling stop, without braking, does the clutch still disengage and the bike come to a stop on its own? Or does it still require holding the brake to force the disengagement? And was this with the stock throttle setup or with the release done? Thanks.

Simple answer is yes, the clutch should disengage and come to rest without braking.

But, if you've got a sticking clutch, it can be reluctant to disengage when it should. Without using the brakes, my '06's clutch would sometimes stay engaged, then release late, so the bike would hold its speed on engine tick-over unless you braked until the stickiness of the clutch gave way.

This was eliminated after I gave it a clutch soak.

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#18 NC Ryder

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 08:10 AM

This was eliminated after I gave it a clutch soak.


Will these instructions work for the AE? I wouldn't mind trying it and seeing if that helps..

Never mind, need to look at your sig first :P

Edited by NC Ryder, 11 April 2012 - 09:08 AM.


#19 YummYam

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 11:17 AM



This was eliminated after I gave it a clutch soak.


Will these instructions work for the AE? I wouldn't mind trying it and seeing if that helps..

Never mind, need to look at your sig first :P

Your initial description fits a change I've noticed with my bike since two things happened.A long tailback on I4 recently had me stopping and starting every minute or two,changing up to second and sometimes third then slowing down to a stop.Going on for 20 or 30 minutes.
Only other thing is I turned idle speed up from 950 ish to 1100.

Since these events although I can't be sure exactly when it started, when coming to a stop changing down to second then first,I can feel the clutch disengaging normally while still rolling as before, but then it feels like it's just engaged for a split second again, then disengages completely as I come to a stop.It's just a 'dab', like you let the lever out on a manual clutch bike just for a split second.

Weird. I will try to be more specific about the revs when this happens and if it is every time I stop.Need to find a deserted road first though.

BTW, spring hasn't been touched yet,I planned for that this w/end.

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#20 majicmaker

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Posted 12 April 2012 - 01:30 PM




This was eliminated after I gave it a clutch soak.


Will these instructions work for the AE? I wouldn't mind trying it and seeing if that helps..

Never mind, need to look at your sig first :P

Your initial description fits a change I've noticed with my bike since two things happened.A long tailback on I4 recently had me stopping and starting every minute or two,changing up to second and sometimes third then slowing down to a stop.Going on for 20 or 30 minutes.
Only other thing is I turned idle speed up from 950 ish to 1100.

Since these events although I can't be sure exactly when it started, when coming to a stop changing down to second then first,I can feel the clutch disengaging normally while still rolling as before, but then it feels like it's just engaged for a split second again, then disengages completely as I come to a stop.It's just a 'dab', like you let the lever out on a manual clutch bike just for a split second.

Weird. I will try to be more specific about the revs when this happens and if it is every time I stop.Need to find a deserted road first though.

BTW, spring hasn't been touched yet,I planned for that this w/end.

Bring your idle RPM down a tad. Same thing happened to me when I up'd the idle RPM. Went away when I brought back down a tiny bit. :ph34r:
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