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New cruise control get flaky with time/miles


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#1 rfulcher

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Posted 28 April 2007 - 09:09 PM

I finished installing my Audiovox cruise control last week on my 07 FJR-A. So far it sucks. On local roads under 60 mph is seems to work okay. If I get on the interstate it will hold at 80+ mph great for a few miles. Then it will start to cut off with even slight climbs. As time passes the speed at which it will engage and hold decreases even when the road is level. Eventually it gets pretty much useless. It will try to engage and then disengage. The control/power lights do not flicker and all work as they should. It goes from perfect to 5hit in less than 20 minutes of interstate.

I am lost with this one. I did an Audiovox install on my Concours last year without any of this grief. To repeat---It works perfectly at first, even at high speeds, and the speed it will engage at and hold keeps dropping as time passes.

I installed everything using the posts on this and other forums. Pretty standard install.

I am using all 4 vacuum ports with 4 check valves and the audiovox vacuum canister. I have tried different combinations of vacuum ports with little change.
I grounded the brake cut off system to eliminate this as a problem source.
Blue wire to the coil on the right
Power lead to blue connector switched hot wire under left fairing.
I used posi-tap connectors

Tomorrow I will verify connections or try alternate connections sites. Will also check vacuum system again. Where else can the blue wire be connected??

This is a major problem since everything works so well when I test at home. The problem only shows after a while on the road at speed.

HELP!!! I am lost with this one. I did an Audiovox install on my Concours last year without any of this grief.

Ross
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#2 Constant Mesh

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 04:47 AM

Likely a vacuum problem. You don't need four check valves and four vacuum connections. It'll work fine with one vacuum connection, one check valve, and a vacuum tank. You have so many vacuum connections that you may have a slow vacuum leak somewhere. The internal volume of the servo is quite small so you really don't need a big vacuum source.

The engine vacuum is strong whenever the throttle is closed. It gets weaker as the throttle is opened. The vacuum is strongest when the engine is turning higher rpm's and the throttle is closed momentarily.

I installed an Audiovox on my FJR in early 2004 and it's still works fine. I have one check valve, one vacuum bottle, and a teed vacuum connection to TB2 and TB3. I use this teed connection to make the TB sync easier. It's much easier to remove a short piece of hose from the two interior TB vacuum ports than removing/installing those little rubber caps.

#3 ionbeam

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 05:23 AM

If you don't find the problem with the vacuum system the next thing to check is the tach circuit including the DIP switches in the servo control unit. The way you describe the speed control petering out is a classic symptom of the tach circuit. Verify your Posi Tap (you done good with these!) connection to the coil wire. Verify that you haven't damaged the 'filter' that is in the AVCC tach wire. Confirm the switch settings in the servo unit:

  • Set the Pulses Per Minute for manual transmission rate of 4000 -- set Switch 1 ON and Switch 2 OFF.
  • Set the Speed Signal for Tach Only -- Switch 3 OFF.
  • Set Sensitivity to LOW for light vehicles with high horsepower -- set Switch 4 ON and Switch 5 OFF.
  • When using the AVCC Control Pad -- set Switch 6 OFF.
  • Tach Source Select is for a coil connection -- set Switch 7 OFF.

If you don't find your problem with vacuum or the tach signal you might be looking at a bad servo unit, though I don't recall a bad servo ever being found to be the root cause.

The fact that the unit sets and controls to a point is a 'soft' failure, not a hard failure which is like turning a switch on/off. A soft failure says that the rest of your electrical connections are good because any failure of these would cause abrupt shut-off.

Good luck!



#4 rfulcher

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 05:34 AM

As I stated in my initial post "I have tried different combinations of vacuum ports with little change." I have used one port with no vacuume tank, my own vacuum tank, and the Audiovox tank. It has basically acted the same with one port or four ports.

Today I will take the tank off again and if I can't spot a problem with my vacuum system I will try 2 ports with a T connection using the check valve in the audiovox vacuum tank.


Ross
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#5 dtyo

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 06:09 AM

I recently installed a CCS-100 and it's behaving the same way. I've taken vacuum measurements at the tee to the servo/accumulator, and there's lots of vacuum. I've thought that there could be a slow leak, but wouldn't the constant engine vacuum just compensate? After much thought, I've also started to suspect the tach connection, but id doesn't seem to make sense that it starts out working fine and degrades over time. It's almost as if the servo/controller was temperature sensitive and got flaky as it was used (warmed up). I haven't found any correlation to road conditions (flat/climbing) or speed. When this has happened, I've stopped for a bit, got back out on the highway and it will work again for awhile and then start acting up again. I've installed another unit on a friends bike using the same exact installation instructions, and his works fine. I'm going to get back under the tank today and reinspect everything and re-route the tach line, thinking that it may be picking up noise from the plug wires - long shot, but maybe. I have a long trip coming up in a couple of weeks wnd would like to ge this settled - fortunately, I have a TM as a backup if it fails on the trip. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

Dan
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#6 ionbeam

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 06:53 AM

The problem with the tach signal starts to show up as the frequency of the signal increases = vehicle speed is getting faster. If the AVCC does not get a stable, clean pulse train it will have problems.

When you ‘set’ the cruise control it takes a snapshot of the frequency on the tach wire then it uses the servo cable to constantly adjust the throttle so that the frequency on the tach wire always remains the same. The correct name for this is an 'error amplifier'. If the vehicle speed starts to drop, the tach signal becomes lower than the set frequency so the AVCC pulls on the throttle cable to bring it back up. If the tach signal becomes faster than the set frequency it will release the throttle cable until there is zero error. The rate that the AVCC is allowed to pull and release the cable is determined by the DIP switch settings. Light vehicle with high HP setting tells the AVCC that any changes it makes will have a rapid and powerful change in vehicle speed so it pulls and releases the throttle cable very slowly. If the DIP switches were set for a heavy vehicle with low power the AVCC can aggressively pull on the cable will little detectable results in vehicle speed.

rfulcher and I posted at nearly the same time, I'm not sure if he saw my previous post.

#7 rfulcher

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 09:55 AM

I will try to confirm the connection to the coil. Is there an easier spot to connect the blue wire to. I saw a post that referred to the orange wire off of the ECU, is this under the right side cover?

How do I verify that you haven't damaged the 'filter' that is in the AVCC tach wire?
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#8 skyway

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 10:14 AM

QUOTE(rfulcher @ Apr 29 2007, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I will try to confirm the connection to the coil. Is there an easier spot to connect the blue wire to. I saw a post that referred to the orange wire off of the ECU, is this under the right side cover?


Connect the coil wire at the connector of the ECU, the biggest plug under the left side panel. IIRC it's the orange wire. A quick continuity check will verify this.

#9 ionbeam

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 10:31 AM

You can use either the solid orange wire or the grey/red stripped wire at the ECU connector. Gen I and Gen II colors are the same.

The filter on the tach wire is a high wattage ~20k Ω resistor, when I say damage I meant physical damage. Has the lump in the tach wire gotten crushed, mashed or bent up while routing wires. One industrious owner went so far as to cut the filter out and splice the wires back together. Immediately after he removed the filter he discovered it was a bad idea when his FJR started displaying the same symptoms as your FJR.

FWIW, the tach signal is the only electrical signal that could cause this problem. It is critical that the DIP switches on the servo unit are set correctly for the tach signal.

#10 Constant Mesh

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 11:42 AM

The in-line noise suppressor in the blue tach wire is a 20 Kohm 1 watt or possibly 2 watt resistor. It has a bright red label attached "Noise Suppressor -- Do Not Remove". If you did cut it out when shortening the blue wire you can easily splice it back in if you didn't toss it in the rubbish.

I connected to the orange coil wire under the seat in the ECU wiring bundle. Very easy to access there and fairly well protected from the elements.

#11 rfulcher

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 02:20 PM

No joy here yet blink.gif I have checked the vacuum system by using a simple T between port 3 and port 4 connected to an audiovox cannister with a built in check valve. NO change in the problem. I also redid the connection to the coil. I trashed the posi-tap and made a Y connector using spade connectors. No change is symptoms. I checked the resistor by pulling the red tape off and visually inspecting. It is covered with shrink wrap and "appears" sound. Can I test and or replace this, and if so how to test or what to replace it with?

My next step is to check/verify/replace the power and ground to the control pad and maybe the power feed on the brake line. I don't have high hopes for this to help given the characteristics of the problem.

On my last test run I further clarified the problem. For the first few miles it will hold 80+ mph however after just a couple of miles at 80 the speed that it can engage and hold drops. It did run at approx 65 mph for about 5 mile/5 minutes, It tends to do okay just long enough to get my hopes up. Over about 20 miles/30 minutes the speed it will hold at has dropped to less than 60 mph. Even if I give it a rest by turning it off for a few miles it does not get any better. It just shows a gradual degradation of hold speed as time and distance pass. If I press resume it will try to engage and then cut off. It tends to cut off if the road climbs slightly, however as time passes this characteristic also get worse.
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#12 smitty141

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 02:24 PM

I have install over 50 units on FJR's. I have three bike out there right now with this same problem. I am pulling my hair out trying to solve this .. Smitty

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#13 Constant Mesh

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 04:26 PM

During all these test runs are you letting the engine come to an idle with the throttle closed between tests?

When the throttle is closed the engine vacuum should be near its highest and the vacuum canister should be charged to its maximum vacuum. If the engine idles for a few seconds the canister should be ready to go.

For an additional test you might do the following:

When you're cruising and you notice that the speed is dropping below the setpoint you can tap the foot brake to disengage the cruise. Cut the throttle, pull in the clutch and coast at speed and let the engine idle for 4 or 5 seconds. Now open the throttle to match the road speed and release the clutch. Then resume the cruise and see if it picks up and accelerates to the setpoint speed.

If it does come back to the setpoint you'll know you probably have a vacuum leak somewhere in the system. If it doesn't your servo may be wonky.

#14 GalaxyBlue

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 04:30 PM

Just a shot in the dark here, But could the problem be limited to 06-07 models?

I hear that the throttle is alot tighter on 06-07 vs the 03-05 dntknw.gif
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#15 jayke

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 04:49 PM

This may may be off base but...

I noticed that the Audiovox CC install instructions for the 06 and up say it's OK for the eyelet connected to the throttle tang to rotate. Is your eyelet rotating?

When I first did the install on my 05 I didn't get the screw tight enough on the throttle tang and at slow speeds it worked OK, on the highway it would work for a little while then cut out. It was pretty useless too. My eyelet was rotating. If the eyelet rotates the CC cable has to move even farther to maintain speed. at some point the CC just shuts off. Since I re-did the throttle connection so that the eyelet couldn't move it's worked great for 32K miles.

#16 radman

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 05:31 PM

If Smitty is having the same issue on 3 bikes, then I would have to say none of the above. For what it's worth, my eyelet has been set to rotate since day one, and never this or any other kind of problem-one just has to be sure the cable housing is positioned so as to allow full unrestricted cable operation to the full limit of the arc the throttle tang uses-for high speed ops this is a must. Moving the housing forward and checking the arc of the tang is important-I have mine set so that 100 mph on cruise is no problem. I also was thinking vacumn-too small a reservoir can cause a problem at high speed-low vacumn cruise, another thought is that the vacumn check valve has too much tension, so that lower vacumn is insufficient to open the valve and allow flow. This would not explain Smittys problem though, unless the problem bikes are all high altitude machines, or the valve he uses has a wide range of opening pressure variance. Frank has a 1 port access, with a Mazda fuel filter for a reservoir. This functioned well on flat land high speed runs,as well as medium altitude rides (Appalachians and the Sierras)). I have used a check valve from Napa that has a very light opening, the number isn't handy right now. I am now using one from Delco, only because it eliminated the hose sizing issues the Napa valve had-1 correct for the unit, and one very small that had to be adapted up to fit the vac port. The Delco has a very high opening suction requirement, but I have yet to experience any issues with it. Just a few thoughts, may or may not be of any help. Bottom line-I think Smitty may have discovered the defect rate on the CCS-100, and you just have bad luck to do the same first time out.
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#17 dtyo

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 05:45 PM

In the process of trying to debug the same problem with my cruise, I had started to think about the cable/throttle connection, and imagined that the servo may be able to detect a fault condition whereby the control unit may be trying to command the servo to open the throttle but doesn't detect any change in RPM's, in which case it (the processor) may consider this a fault and shut down. So, if the cable or linkage is binding in some way, this might lead to the unit to act this way - and it might explain why once it starts to fail, it continues as long as the cruise linkage is jamed or is binding. One other thing I've noticed is that when the fault happens the unit disengages very quickly. If the cruise is working "normally", when I disengage it by touching the brakes, or even turning it off, is seems to release the throttle gently - not like when the error occurs. Any way, I've pulled the tank back off and I'm re-checking everything, the vacuum connections, throttle linkages and electrical connections. It did look like the chain ring was bent, and the chain was very close to fouling with the throttle cable... I'd like to find a fool proof way of keeping the chain clear of all other moving parts - I had thought that I'd like to find some kind of flexible bellows type cover - like a cover used to protect a shock absorber. I'm sure I've seem something like that some where. I'm trying to figure out a way to operate the cruise without having to ride the bike. Since it only uses the tach, the bike doesn't actually have to be moving, but without a load, the servo over-controls the throttle and shuts down due to an over-rev condition. Maybe if a couple of the injectors were disconnected, the motor wouldn't be as responsive and the control loop would react properly?? I'm still not discounting a defective servo unit - given the number of systems installed, and the number that appear to be having similar problems, there might be a few bad apples in the basket.

Dan
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#18 rfulcher

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 07:38 PM

Just got back from a 70 mile ride to test the AVCC ...again... angry.gif I tried Constant Mesh's idea of using engine braking to recharge the vacuum canister. It seemed to help. I did not have a chance to try a steady 80 mph or any inclines but I was able to run at 68 MPH for 5 miles stretches (ran out of road, got to the next town) and 70+ a few times. It did cut off a couple of times but when I coasted with the clutch engaged it seemed to recharge, what a PIA. The performance did not seem to degrade as badly or as quickly if I used engine braking when it cut off. The frequency of shut off did not increase with time. My impression is that the servo is weak, to the point of being faulty, and takes almost all of the vacuum and does not catch up with out engine braking. I think this kind of ruled out electrical issues.

The air temp was around 60 during the ride tonight so maybe the cooler air helped somewhat.

Tomorrow I will try to get on the I-95 and cruise at about 78-80+ mph and repeat the test. I may also try to run the servo cable with more gradual bends to make sure it isn't binding.

I released the middle throttle return spring prior to installing the AVCC.

Ross
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#19 dtyo

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 02:15 AM

Has anyone had any experience with Audiovox and warranty claims for the CCS-100? I'm thinking of getting another unit to replace the one I have while I work warranty issues.

Dan
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Past: 2008 Husqvarna TE610, 2006 FJR, 2003 Aprilia Capo

#20 Last Chance

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 02:40 AM

Almost makes me glad I spent the $600 on a McCruise... clapping.gif ..Of course I haven't installed it yet. dribble.gif

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