How far does the LEO's radar reach?

Hypothetically speaking, of course......

I was being shadowed yesterday by Hwy Patrol. He came up from behind down the road twice. I was cruising 75-80mph with occasional jaunts to 100-110mph. Thankfully, with the smooth performance and rock solid mirrors on the FJR, I was able to see a vehicle in the distance slightly gaining and SLOW down. Within a few minutes the LEO would pass. So it got me thinking, what is the range on radar?

Any resemblence to actual events is purely coincidental! B)

Luke said:

Hypothetically speaking, of course......

I was being shadowed yesterday by Hwy Patrol. He came up from behind down the road twice. I was cruising 75-80mph with occasional jaunts to 100-110mph. Thankfully, with the smooth performance and rock solid mirrors on the FJR, I was able to see a vehicle in the distance slightly gaining and SLOW down. Within a few minutes the LEO would pass. So it got me thinking, what is the range on radar?

Any resemblence to actual events is purely coincidental! B)

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if they catch you in the open running alone a long way! Sometimes if you run up on em before you know it, they will shoot you from their rear pointing gun so watch out ahead and behind.

escort 8500X50 helps but is no guarantee!

The specs that I just read along with the one I posted about the LIDAR ar as follows:

RADAR at 1000ft spreads out to a width about 210 ft.

the LIDAR at 1000ft spreads out to a width of 3-4 ft.

May help and

have not varified the accurancy of the figures mentioned, but seems close to me

tripletango said:

Luke said:

Hypothetically speaking, of course......

I was being shadowed yesterday by Hwy Patrol. He came up from behind down the road twice. I was cruising 75-80mph with occasional jaunts to 100-110mph. Thankfully, with the smooth performance and rock solid mirrors on the FJR, I was able to see a vehicle in the distance slightly gaining and SLOW down. Within a few minutes the LEO would pass. So it got me thinking, what is the range on radar?

Any resemblence to actual events is purely coincidental! B)

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if they catch you in the open running alone a long way! Sometimes if you run up on em before you know it, they will shoot you from their rear pointing gun so watch out ahead and behind.

escort 8500X50 helps but is no guarantee!

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I noticed that I got shot quite a few times after I passed a leo in the opposite lane going away from me as I traveled from TX to NC on the slab.

In NC the State Trooper can testify to your speed, without having a radar reading. You still have to pay a lawyer to get it reduced or dismissed!

The radar reaches farther than the LEO can see. It comes down to how much it spreads at a given distance and how well LEO can determine exactly what he is reading. That's why they (LEOs) get trained and certified on radar.

what is the range on radar?

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Several elements to this answer. Most radar guns have variable microwave output power, typically 13mW to 50mW. Then there is the size and shape of the target. An 18 wheeler will easily reflect back a signal where as sharp angled sports cars and low surface area motorcycles return a very weak signal. Finally there is the sensitivity of the gun's receiver. Many new radar guns have excellent receivers (in part due to frequency range) and can read speed much farther away without needing higher output power. Less output power = fewer and weaker scattered microwaves for detectors to pick up.

If a radar gun was set for minimum power, at 1/4 mile, the gun can read the 18 wheeler with ease but probably won't get a signal strong enough to read from either the sports car or a motorcycle.

And if they stop you . . .

Never admit that you were speeding (the wife recently said something like "I COULDN'T have been going 84 - the MOST I was running at was 75". That's a verbal admission of guilt and it WILL be used against you (we negotiated the charge down to 'parking on the pavement', so no points - and they seem to have forgotten to charge us their 'fees', so I'm happy to have paid just $150. I'd have been happier if I had the $150 for a farkle for the bike, mind you).

Always remember to ask how you were tagged and to see the reading if/when ticketed.

Request discovery if you are pleading not guilty. You want to see the evidence. You want to know when the equipment was calibrated and by whom. You want to know when the officer was certified, when he was last checked and by who and what HIS credentials are. If they don't provide it you can request dismissal. If you see something 'funny', you can request dismissal.

Often pleading not guilty will result in an automatic dismissal of charges if the officer doesn't show up at the courthouse.

Keep in mind that it IS often about the revenue - you can often negotiate with the town to reduce the charge down to a non-moving violation - at least your insurance and your demerits won't be impacted.

bramfrank said:

And if they stop you . . .
Never admit that you were speeding (the wife recently said something like "I COULDN'T have been going 84 - the MOST I was running at was 75". That's a verbal admission of guilt and it WILL be used against you (we negotiated the charge down to 'parking on the pavement', so no points - and they seem to have forgotten to charge us their 'fees', so I'm happy to have paid just $150. I'd have been happier if I had the $150 for a farkle for the bike, mind you).

Always remember to ask how you were tagged and to see the reading if/when ticketed.

Request discovery if you are pleading not guilty. You want to see the evidence. You want to know when the equipment was calibrated and by whom. You want to know when the officer was certified, when he was last checked and by who and what HIS credentials are. If they don't provide it you can request dismissal. If you see something 'funny', you can request dismissal.

Often pleading not guilty will result in an automatic dismissal of charges if the officer doesn't show up at the courthouse.

Keep in mind that it IS often about the revenue - you can often negotiate with the town to reduce the charge down to a non-moving violation - at least your insurance and your demerits won't be impacted.

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yes - you can request all the data about a ticket if you take it to court, but the police have NO obligation to show you a radar reading when you are popped. Some will - and others wont. Some local policies forbid them showing you.

plus showing you a reading doesn't mean much - it could have been on there all day.

what you would really want to see is the tagged reading (what they got YOU at) PLUS the relative speed of the police car. Large differences or not taking the differences into consideration will screw up many a radar reading.

In a town I work in the city cops shoot radar just once. It always reads 12 over. This doubles the fine. I know some of the cops and they laugh all the time how people just accept it and have to pay the fine.

Well, as a LEO, I can tell you that NJ set the standard for LIDAR. Not every state follows it, but lawyers have successfully argued in many states that LIDAR at more than 1000' should not be considered. The NJ study showed that at 1000' LIDAR being viewed through the sighting scope was exceptionally accurate. However, more than that and the accurracy begins to diminish. So, the NJ study is becoming the standard. And yes, the numbers posted above are accurate, at 1000' the LIDAR beam is only 3' because it only has a 3 degree spread. Now, having said that, I have, while stuck at an accident scene on top of a bridge, shot a huge sign at 12,000' with my LIDAR unit. Granted, the sign was 10x bigger than a car, was stationary, and coated with a light reflecting material, but that does show it has a larger range than what a court may allow.

RADAR is different. Being that it is radio waves and not light waves, they bounce and return from great distances. There is a curved tunnel here in Portland where you can shoot the RADAR into the tunnel, and a good 30 seconds before you see the vehicle, you have it's speed. Of course, it can't be used in court, but when you are bored on night shift, it is entertaining! But, figure 30 seconds at 60mph and it is at least a half mile.

However, with RADAR, a LEO is supposed to use a tracking history to confirm the RADAR is in fact reading the target he is watching. This means that once you acquire the speed, you either wait until the target leaves the radar pattern and subsequently watch the RADAR display fade out, or do some other means to verify what you are reading is what you are seeing. This isn't always possible, and as mentioned above, if the officer's observations are of you speeding and they are independent of the RADAR reading, the RADAR is then only used as a confirmation of the officer's observations. Not every state allows officer observation, but most do.

Sorry to get so long winded. Truth is, the range fo the units (both RADAR and LIDAR) is far greater than any officer could use effectively.

As for the shooting from behind aspect mentioned above, that is how I used to run it in the Terwilliger curves of I-5. I'd sit on an overpass and shoot people from behind with a LIDAR at 200-500', then pull them over (my threshold was ALWAYS 21+mph over the posted 50mph limit). I can't tell you how many Valentine 1 owners would argue there was no way I could have gotten them because their $400 detector never alerted them.

Thanks for all the great replies. Wow...there's a large brain trust here!

Oh, and as for the "Never admit you were speeding" philosophy, that's a double edged sword. The ONLY people I give warnings to that I pull over are the ones who readily acknowledge the reason they were stopped.

My purpose for stopping someone is to correct their driving behavior (*). If they acknowledge their behavior and are remorseful, a warning is typically sufficient to get them to think about their future driving. If they deny they were speeding even though I just got them with a LIDAR, they are in denial and are therefore not nearly as likely to think about their future driving. I mean, why change something when you don't think you were wrong to begin with?

*- Yes, that is my reason for stopping people. Contrary to popular opinion, most cops don't give a rip about the revenue collection. While some have a valid argument about how some in government look at citations solely as a means of revenue, most cops don't see it that way.

Ponyfool , You must be old school cop. Now a days the kid- cops get out with book in hand and start writting.

Some like to get out with guns drawn and have you on the ground then cuff you.

Kind of like you know the 70 year old lady j- walking what a threat!!!!!!!!!!

What the cops really want is a signature on your GPS to issue you a ticket with out actually comming in contact with you. Except by mail and a greeting from your local officers ticket book.

Now that is police work. :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

weekend rider said:

Ponyfool , You must be old school cop. Now a days the kid- cops get out with book in hand and start writting.
Some like to get out with guns drawn and have you on the ground then cuff you.

Kind of like you know the 70 year old lady j- walking what a threat!!!!!!!!!!

What the cops really want is a signature on your GPS to issue you a ticket with out actually comming in contact with you. Except by mail and a greeting from your local officers ticket book.

Now that is police work. :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

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I don't know how old school I am, I've only been doing it for 18 years. But, now I am a sergeant, and I will actively be encouraging my officers to do things the same way I did them.

As for the j-walking lady, that was pretty pathetic, no doubt about that. Every profession has those that make the rest look bad, unfortunately, mine is no different.

As for the cops not wanting contact, I disagree. Administrators, traffic engineers and revenue folks may want that, but the cops I work with still enjoy person to person contact. Not all of them are positive, but many are.

On a side note, you may not agree with photo-red light cameras, but violations at intersections that have them drop dramatically. The same can not be said for photo radar though.

ponyfool said:

Oh, and as for the "Never admit you were speeding" philosophy, that's a double edged sword. The ONLY people I give warnings to that I pull over are the ones who readily acknowledge the reason they were stopped.
My purpose for stopping someone is to correct their driving behavior (*). If they acknowledge their behavior and are remorseful, a warning is typically sufficient to get them to think about their future driving. If they deny they were speeding even though I just got them with a LIDAR, they are in denial and are therefore not nearly as likely to think about their future driving. I mean, why change something when you don't think you were wrong to begin with?

*- Yes, that is my reason for stopping people. Contrary to popular opinion, most cops don't give a rip about the revenue collection. While some have a valid argument about how some in government look at citations solely as a means of revenue, most cops don't see it that way.

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I'd like to ask a couple questions of a LEO after a comment.

If I'm caught speeding I know it and admit it. In the past 15 years, I've been pulled over a couple times that got me warnings, and haven't (knock on wood) received any tickets. When I was younger it didn't matter, I was tagged 8 times in 5 years -- then again that was in Mass. where speeding was a sport 20 years ago. I always just paid them.

One memorable time I was pulled over, the cop (at 2am) admitted to me he should give me a ticket, because it meant $130 in revenue to his small Oregon town, but because of my (true) story, he let me off. That was what he said. Revenue was important.

Why is it my ex-wife got stopped at least 9 times that I know of and never (as of a couple years ago that I know of) ever been cited. And no, she isn't that pretty.

If I decided to fight the ticket, what are the real world chances in Oregon I would get off or have it reduced? What court does it go to? If I'm traveling through Portland, for example, do I have to go to court in Portland to fight it? What arguments have you seen actually work?

Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

I'm an LEO in Memphis TN. The one I use gets out to about 1/4 mile or so. The trouble is that it picks up vehicles comming and going and there is no way to tell which car / truck / motorcycle you're picking up. You kinda just got to wait till there's only one target and then lock in the speed reading. If the trooper was behind you speeding up and slowing down it sounds like he was trying to pace you.

You don't need a lawyer to beat a speeding ticket. All you have to do is fight it. Speeding tickets are so easily beat that in Memphis if you meerly contest the ticket the judge frequently throws it out.

In addition, I do see tickets as just revenue collection. You can always use them as probable cause to search the cars you KNOW are dope mules but I find that tickets are selective taxation and I won't cite if the driver isn't drunk, has a good license, insurance and a job. Since in TN it's illegal for cops to strike or have a union, the only way we have to get our point across is to stop writing tickets and let the free money well run dry at City Hall.

On a side note, you may not agree with photo-red light cameras, but violations at intersections that have them drop dramatically. The same can not be said for photo radar though.

I'm a daily commuter in California. The absolute scariest part of my ride every morning are red lights or traffic signal intersections. There is one three lights down from my house that is a photo intersection and it is the ONLY one where I feel halfway safe. I have seen this light run only once and that was a turn lane scofflaw. The second light from my house I have seen cars (the next closest when returning home) I've seen cars run this light at least 1/10th of a mile or MORE - AFTER I went through and it was pretty good bet I could have stopped for the yellow. (and no - I wasn't speeding - these guys were maybe a dozen seconds or more AFTER the light)

There is almost NO WAY I will stop for a yellow light on a bike.

I don't like photo intersections (my daughter was recently popped going through one) or at least I don't like the idea of them. But every day I see a HUGE difference in the way people drive when they are there. So, frankly - even though I hate the idea of them I'M 100% for having them at EVERY FREEKIN' INTERSECTION.

ShinyPartsUp said:

Why is it my ex-wife got stopped at least 9 times that I know of and never (as of a couple years ago that I know of) ever been cited. And no, she isn't that pretty.

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What is her demeanor during the stop? If she behaves the way I described above, that could be the reason, I don't know. My wife gets cited EVERY time she gets stopped because she turns to ice and becomes argumentative. I just smile cuz I know it isn't me she's behaving that way to!

ShinyPartsUp said:

If I decided to fight the ticket, what are the real world chances in Oregon I would get off or have it reduced? What court does it go to? If I'm traveling through Portland, for example, do I have to go to court in Portland to fight it? What arguments have you seen actually work?

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Depends on the type ticket, but if the officer has learned from past mistakes, doesn't write chippy tickets, the chances of getting off are very rare, at least here. The ticket must be fought in the jurisdiction it was issued, even if you are traveling.
What I mean by chippy tickets is this: As with everything, reasonableness should always be considered. Red lights: I watch the light turn red. Then I turn my attention to the stop line and the cars. If you are two car lenghts away from the stop line when I first see you and continue through the intersection, I'm going to pull you over. If you say, "It was green" or "It wasn't red", you are likely going to get a ticket. If you say, "Sorry, I thought I could make it and by the time I realized I couldn't, I was already committed" you probably won't get a ticket. But, this is just me. Side note on red lights, if your front wheels have already crossed when I look down, I won't pull you over. Why argue such a hair splitting issue when all you have to do is wait one more light cycle to get someone else gunning it through the red?

Speeding is similar. If the limit is 45 of faster, I don't even pull you over until you are 21mph over the limit. Anyone who tries to argue that 21mph over the limit is reasonable, well, you're likely to get a ticket. For 35mph limits, I give 16 over. For school zones I only give 11 over. To me, this prevents me from having to pull over the average joe with the standard reasons for speeding. Plus, even in an anti-cop environment, I think I can articulate the reasonableness of these thresholds. Hell, a lot of times, people want the threshold lower, but over the years, this has worked for me.

ponyfool said:

ShinyPartsUp said:

Why is it my ex-wife got stopped at least 9 times that I know of and never (as of a couple years ago that I know of) ever been cited. And no, she isn't that pretty.

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What is her demeanor during the stop? If she behaves the way I described above, that could be the reason, I don't know. My wife gets cited EVERY time she gets stopped because she turns to ice and becomes argumentative. I just smile cuz I know it isn't me she's behaving that way to!

ShinyPartsUp said:

If I decided to fight the ticket, what are the real world chances in Oregon I would get off or have it reduced? What court does it go to? If I'm traveling through Portland, for example, do I have to go to court in Portland to fight it? What arguments have you seen actually work?

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Depends on the type ticket, but if the officer has learned from past mistakes, doesn't write chippy tickets, the chances of getting off are very rare, at least here. The ticket must be fought in the jurisdiction it was issued, even if you are traveling.
What I mean by chippy tickets is this: As with everything, reasonableness should always be considered. Red lights: I watch the light turn red. Then I turn my attention to the stop line and the cars. If you are two car lenghts away from the stop line when I first see you and continue through the intersection, I'm going to pull you over. If you say, "It was green" or "It wasn't red", you are likely going to get a ticket. If you say, "Sorry, I thought I could make it and by the time I realized I couldn't, I was already committed" you probably won't get a ticket. But, this is just me. Side note on red lights, if your front wheels have already crossed when I look down, I won't pull you over. Why argue such a hair splitting issue when all you have to do is wait one more light cycle to get someone else gunning it through the red?

Speeding is similar. If the limit is 45 of faster, I don't even pull you over until you are 21mph over the limit. Anyone who tries to argue that 21mph over the limit is reasonable, well, you're likely to get a ticket. For 35mph limits, I give 16 over. For school zones I only give 11 over. To me, this prevents me from having to pull over the average joe with the standard reasons for speeding. Plus, even in an anti-cop environment, I think I can articulate the reasonableness of these thresholds. Hell, a lot of times, people want the threshold lower, but over the years, this has worked for me.

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Great answers to our questions. I wish all LEOs were as reasonable as you! Thanks.