Y.E.S., 20W40, and Legal Issues

Before you tell me this has already been covered, I searched the forum and HAVE NOT found a definitive answer, more like speculation and opinion.

I got my Y.E.S. contract yesterday and the way I, not a lawyer be any means read it, is that if I don't use 20W40 Yamaha "can" void my warrantee.

Let me throw in some quotes:

Page 3, items 11 and 18 under Specific Exclusions This Contract Does Not Cover.

#11 Loss which occurs due to failure to maintain proper fluid and/or lubricant levels as specified by Yamaha or due to improper oil/gas mixture ratios.

#18 The Customer must either (a) use the maintenance Log provided with the Y.E.S. Contract and have it verified by the Yamaha Dealer that performs the services or repars or ( B) the Customer must keep receipts or other records that show the cost, dates, mileage, elapsed hours, services, and repairs performed, including storage. Failure to show proof of servicing may result in the denial of coverages.

The following comes from the Owner's Manual page 8-1 Specifications.

Engine Oil - Type Yamalube(4) (20w40) or SAE20W40 Recommended Service Grade API Service SE, SF, SG type or higher.

There is also a CAUTION on page 6-13 "Do not use oils ..... or of a higher quality than specified"

As most of you already know 20W40 oil is not easy to come by anywhere other than the Yamaha shop. 10W40 or 15W40 without Energy Conserving additives meeting the API spec is common as are some 15W50's.

My experiences with the local Yamaha dealers and throwing in the fact that most of the mechanics, good or bad have not touched an FJR before mine, I will be doing my own maintenance unless it is a warrantee problem. I have kept my receipt from purchasing Pennzoil 10W40 which has absolutely no harmful effects on an FJR, BUT exceeds Yamaha's spec at startup. If my engine widget fails, Yamaha "could" void my warrantee, the way I read it, although in SC I could take them to court to dispute that.

Now for the question. Has ANYONE put this situation to Yamaha for a definitive answer? I called but they said I need to call back on Tuesday. If they tell me I MUST use 20W40, then YES is going to turn into NO in a big hurry.

Haven't had to use YES so far but #18 would be my only concern. I use an Excel log but most of my work is self performed and I keep receipts.

As a subaru owner I can tell you that Subaru is a PITA to deal with on warranty issues. They want logs AND receipts for all scheduled work. Failure to show that and you usually end up having to escalate to a regional rep for warranty work, depedning on what is needed on your car. Subie dealers in certain areas are known to monitor the ClubWRX.net site for people posting abuse stories that are modified.

My guess is, that if you were to examine any extended warranty contract it would contain language similar to this meant to discourage use and protect the manufacturer.

#11 looks like it is meant to protect against damage from mods like a PC3 that isnt properly tuned.

Keep us posted on what you find out from Yammi

Rod, you bring up good points. Members should try to keep specific records of their maintenace, just like it spells out in the YES contract. I try to keep good records of my own maintenance, and try to follow Yamaha's recommendations.

I'm not a lawyer and I've never had to test the YES, so all I can offer is conjecture, like the vast majority of members here. Which is why this topic goes into NEPRTs.

It's better to have the YES and not need it, than not have it and need it. The rest is discretion of the dealership. For the under 4 bills that I paid for the YES, I really think it's hard to pass up.

Perhaps we should start a thread and maybe the administrators could pin it. For those very few members who have used their YES contract, were you asked for maintenance records and what were the circumstances of your mechanical problems? If we could gather a database on maintenance/break down issues then we might have better knowledge of whether dealers are using the fine print of the contract to slip out from performing warranty work under the YES contract.

Personally, I like having the YES for piece of mind. As much for selling the FJR a couple years down the road moreso than I think I'll really need to use the Yamaha Extended Service warranty.

Proper logs of maintenance should be S.O.P. for everyone already. It not only helps you in a worst-case situation with the mfgr, but it increases the resale value of the bike when the potential buyer sees a decent maint folder.

In the USA, the Magnuson-Moss Act protects you from being forced to use mfgr-branded oils and supplies. Under it's protection a mfgr can insist on certain "qualities" of oils, filters, etc (equal to) but if they require that you use a specific brand, then they have to provide it at no cost to the owner. So, you are required to stick to the maintenance schedule and keep your receipts and a log of some sort. All but the receipts for your oil and filters should be second nature anyway. Receipts, logs, and such should all be second nature for big ticket items that require shop service (valve adjustments, milestone services, etc.) for those who aren't already 100% self sufficient.

When I talked to Yamaha Corp. months back they would not back off from 20/40, no other grade acceptable. I tried a couple of calls. I guess it may depend on who you talk to. I even told them 10/40 was recommended overseas and they would not tell me I could use it....

I'm spending my $400 on farkles instead of Yammies Extended Service. :dance:

FJRobert said:

When I talked to Yamaha Corp. months back they would not back off from 20/40, no other grade acceptable. I tried a couple of calls. I guess it may depend on who you talk to. I even told them 10/40 was recommended overseas and they would not tell me I could use it....

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send them a copy of Magnusun-Moss and ask for your free oil.

https://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.htm

"Tie-In Sales" ProvisionsGenerally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.

While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.

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also at: https://www.magnusonproducts.com/magnusonmoss.htm

US Code - Title 15, Chapter 50, Sections 2301-2312
Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle

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they would have to prove that something like Mobile 1 15w50 didn't meet (or exceed) the standards of Yamalube 20w40. Using something like dino oil in 10w40 might be easier as its range is below that recommended by the mfgr.

In a strict legal sense, Yamaha has the right to require 20w-40 and deny an oil-related warranty claim is you couldn't produce documentation that shows you used this oil. Yamaha isn't specifying their oil, but they are effectively specifying their oil unless you can find another oil that meets their spec, both in viscosity and service grade.

Practically speaking, I don't think they'd deny a claim if you were using 10W-40, 15W-50 or another similar oil. I certainly would want to use an oil that was in the same ballpark and covered at least the same range.

If this worries you, you could just bite the bullet and buy Yamaha's oil. The effective cost of this would be $10 or so at each oil change, hardly earth-shattering.

Keep in mind that the chances of having an oil-related failure in an FJR used in a reasonable manner and with proper maintenance are almost zero.

YES makes the most sense if you are a "throw the keys at the dealer every 4K" kind of person. The more you modify, maintain, and otherwise fiddle with your bike, the more things start to get grayer. Personally, I never buy extended warranties on anything as they're almost always a poor value.

Bounce said:

they would have to prove that something line Mobile 1 15w50 didn't meet (or exceed) the standards of Yamalube 20w40.

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I sincerely doubt this. They only have to prove that you didn't follow their oil spec. If you put Wesson oil in the crankcase, Yamaha doesn't need to prove that Wesson doesn't meet their spec. They only need to show that you were not maintaining the bike according to the contract.

- Mark

Per the owners manual, 20w40 is only recommended above 40 degrees F. According to the '03 service manual I have, anything below 40F and you should be using 10w40 oil. It actually shows 10w40 oil as going to the same upper temps.

By reading the owners manual shipped with the bike, if you DO use 20w40 in anything below 40 degrees, you ARE NOT following the manufacturer's specified fluids.

slapnpop said:

By reading the owners manual shipped with the bike, if you DO use 20w40 in anything below 40 degrees, you ARE NOT following the manufacturer's specified fluids.

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Good catch. Practically speaking, if you show a nice neat logbook with mileages, dates, and receipts for a good quality oil that is in the ballpark viscosity, Yamaha is very unlikely to give you a hard time.

- Mark

Just went back and re-double-checked my owners manual:

Page 8-1 is a graph for engine oil type, listing Yamalube or SAE 10W-30 for temps 10F - 100F,

Yamahalube or SAE 20W-40 for temps 40F - 120F

Printed in April 2002, 1st Edition.

If they have made a bona fide change in recommendation, seems they would need to provide me with a reason to not do what the owner's manual specifies.

My YES info delivered in '04 states that I need to keep my receipts OR the YES card filled in when service is completed. I have 27K on the Cobalt Cooker and I think I ran out of space on the YES card about mile 15K. I am now onto an excel spreadsheet were I keep all of my vehicle maintenance records.

slapnpop said:

Per the owners manual, 20w40 is only recommended above 40 degrees F. According to the '03 service manual I have, anything below 40F and you should be using 10w40 oil. It actually shows 10w40 oil as going to the same upper temps.
By reading the owners manual shipped with the bike, if you DO use 20w40 in anything below 40 degrees, you ARE NOT following the manufacturer's specified fluids.

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Too bad Owners Manual on the '06 ONLY calls for SAE 20/40 & has NO winter grade listed, that was my argument with them over the phone. . . .

FJRobert said:

Too bad Owners Manual on the '06 ONLY calls for SAE 20/40 & has NO winter grade listed, that was my argument with them over the phone. . . .

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No, you misunderstood me. You're not supposed to ride your bike below 40F. That was one of the changes in the '06 model!

I'm damn good at misunderstanding, I guess I got the desert model since I live in Arizona !

It's easy to ride the '03-'05's below 40 degrees because of the built in heater!

slapnpop said:

FJRobert said:

Too bad Owners Manual on the '06 ONLY calls for SAE 20/40 & has NO winter grade listed, that was my argument with them over the phone. . . .

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No, you misunderstood me. You're not supposed to ride your bike below 40F. That was one of the changes in the '06 model!

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crap, I guess I wrecked it.....

Anyone want to buy an '07 with 200 miles on it, all of it under 40 degrees?

While this is a great thread, we haven't heard from anyone who has actually had to use their YES warranty. Anyone had to use it & what was your experience? Maybe a poll of people who have YES & how many have actually had occasion to use it to cover repairs/replacements?

markjenn said:

Good catch. Practically speaking, if you show a nice neat logbook with mileages, dates, and receipts for a good quality oil that is in the ballpark viscosity, Yamaha is very unlikely to give you a hard time.
- Mark

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Just got off the phone with Customer Service. I was transfered to a technical representative. I asked this question "If I have a component such as a bearing fail at some time during my warranty period, like one year and one day after I bought the bike, AND my records show that I have been using 10W40 or 15W40 motor oil, would it void my warranty?" Short answer, "NO." Paraphrased long answer, "change the oil at or near recommended intervals and don't use the cheapest oil you can find." I'm keeping my Y.E.S. even though I doubt whether I'll ever need it.