Antifreeze: green vs. orange

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FlyingLow

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So I'm getting my '05 ABS ready for WFO, and then a week later, a week-long road trip to New Mexico. Besides a TBS and a new air filter, I'm also changing the coolant for the first time [at 14.5K].

I thought I would try some Prestone Dex-Cool so I bought a gallon. After draining out the green factory coolant and a flush out, I opened the Dex-Cool and it's orange.

Uh-oh. I had always read don't mix green with orange [even though now all the green was flushed out] But I checked up and instead refilled with standard green Prestone.

Urban legend? Old wive's tale? Paranoia on my part? The Prestone jugs even say compatible with any color.

BTW, it needed changing. The old stuff had some black tint, indicative of decomposing aluminum.

 
I checked up and instead refilled with standard green Prestone.Urban legend? Old wive's tale? Paranoia on my part? The Prestone jugs even say compatible with any color.

BTW, it needed changing. The old stuff had some black tint, indicative of decomposing aluminum.
I did a similar thing, except I went and filled it with Dex-cool. That very day back in March there was a post here (which I cannot find) that referred to Dex-cool and the lawsuits and such. Much ado, however it was the submission from Jestal explaining the science behind the controversy (I learned about organic acids that day... :dribble: ) His final note was that Dex-cool might be OK if you were to flush the green real well, but he would not put it in... <_<

So I went on Google and read way too many submissions on the subject, and the next weekend flushed it out and installed Havoline Green.... FWIW

 
I checked up and instead refilled with standard green Prestone.

Urban legend? Old wive's tale? Paranoia on my part? The Prestone jugs even say compatible with any color.

BTW, it needed changing. The old stuff had some black tint, indicative of decomposing aluminum.
I did a similar thing, except I went and filled it with Dex-cool. That very day back in March there was a post here (which I cannot find) that referred to Dex-cool and the lawsuits and such. Much ado, however it was the submission from Jestal explaining the science behind the controversy (I learned about organic acids that day... :dribble: ) His final note was that Dex-cool might be OK if you were to flush the green real well, but he would not put it in... <_<

So I went on Google and read way too many submissions on the subject, and the next weekend flushed it out and installed Havoline Green.... FWIW

I started using blue ice, non toxic, all the racers use it, expensive though.

 
If they don't supply long life coolant, you don't want to use long life coolant to refill.

Long life coolant is specific to all aluminum systems - if there is any non-aluminum metal in the system, the long life will mess things up. I don;t know if there is any other metal type in the FJR cooling system.

As an added benefit, if you don't flush 100% of the green out before putting in the orange, you can wind up with an ugly brown sludge that will block the arteries and capillaries nicely - which is why I'm presently suing my Chrysler dealer in small claims court for the $2500 it cost to fix the engine in my LHS 18 months ago.

It isn't hard to flush the coolant - and green is cheaper than orange anyway, so why chance it?

 
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...and yet the FJR "Blowjob" maintenance article says, "Havoline Dex-Cool is The Shit." And the author has used it for 8 years on 5 different bikes for 350,000 miles w/o problems.

 
Timely post, since I was gonna do my radiator flush this weekend, and already bought Dex-cool... so what's the answer? I was planning on flushing it a la the "blowjob", will that get enough of the green stuff out to avoid any issues?

 
Timely post, since I was gonna do my radiator flush this weekend, and already bought Dex-cool... so what's the answer? I was planning on flushing it a la the "blowjob", will that get enough of the green stuff out to avoid any issues?
Depends. What's your paranoia quotient, scale of 1 to 10? ;)

As for that unused gallon of orange, maybe I'll try it in my high mileage '01 Ford Focus which is on its last legs anyway, and see what happens.

 
I think if I flush it properly (a la the "Blowjob" procedure), I should be ok...

 
Contrary to reports mixing green with orange (or vice versa) really doesn't cause any severe problems. Try it in a glass in your garage and see..... It just does NOT turn to green jello and/or brown deposits and/or some strange chemical reaction that eats the engine from the inside out....LOL. I have seen many engines and cooling systems purposefully doped with both coolants and nothing bad happens......other than the DexCool's long life being neutered.

Both green and DexCool coolants are ethyleneglycol. They are different in the corrosion inhibitor additives in the coolant only. Green coolant is silicated coolant. Orange DexCool is orgnaic acid inhibited coolant. The two are compatible although the addition of the silicated coolant pretty much neuters the long life capability of the DexCool. This COULD cause a problem if the mixed or neutered DexCool were left in the system (thinking that it was "long life") forever as corrosion would start when the corrosion inhibitors failed.

Silicated coolant protect agains corrosion quite well. So does DexCool. Either work fine in aluminum or cast iron or bimetal engines. The difference is that the silicates in the silicated coolants deplete over time/miles and need replenishing hence the need for frequent drain and refills. The ethyleneglycol is perfectly fine forever, just the corrosion inhibitor fails when the silicates deplete and the system is left unprotected unless the coolant is drained and replaced with fresh stuff.

DexCool, because of the organic acid (commonly referred to OAT for organic acid technology) corrosion inhibitor package basically lasts forever in a cooling system, even in aluminum engines which makes it valuable since the silicates deplete very rapidly in aluminum engine systems.

Once a system has been exposed to silicated green coolant the internal passages become plated with silicates and it is basically impossible to remove the silicates from contaminating the system in the future. As stated, silicate contamination makes the DexCool long life capability very questionable. If the system was run with silicated coolant there is really no point in putting DexCool in it as it will have no longer life than the green stuff and will need changing periodically. So why bother with the extra expense? It has no advantage in cooling (both are ethyleneglycol based products) and no advantage in corrosion protection (both silicates and OAT coolants protect well) and the only advantage DexCool has (long life) has been eliminated by the previous use of green silicated coolant. That is why I don't recommend it in the FJR. Not because it is bad stuff or that it is likely to cause a problem....it just isn't necessary. Kind of like synthetic oil....LOL.

To cut to the chase....I changed my coolant in my FJR and used Texaco green silicated coolant.....and I worked on the developement of DexCool years ago and love the stuff. It just isn't applicable to the FJR which was factory filled with silicated coolant from what I can tell.

Cars factory filled with DexCool say to NOT mix the two or NOT to add green coolant BECAUSE IT RENDERS THE LONG LIFE OF THE DEXCOOL USELESS. It won't turn to jello or cause black deposits or anything like that. It just ruins the DexCool in the system and means that the coolant will have to be frequently changed in that system from that day on.

In the past DexCool has shown incompatibility with some aluminium alloys used in the past in older cooling systems and also with brass and copper and some solders as used in very old systems. That is why it is probably a good idea to not use it in a system not spec'ed for DexCool. The chances of it causing a problem in a modern cooling system is pretty slim I would guess but without testing it is hard to say for sure. DexCool certainly does not cause any problems with cast iron or other ferrous metals in the engine.

Heavy doses of silicates can cause premature water pump seal failure due to silicate buildup on the seal face. This is another advantage of DexCool that is not so obvious but most water pump seals are pretty immune to the silicate levels in coolants specified for gasoline engines. Just do NOT use the "heavy duty" silicated coolants commonly found in truck stops that are designed for class 8 diesels as the silicate levels will definitly take out an automotive (or motorcycle) water pump seal.

Not sure how substituting DexCool in a system could cause black deposits and "ruin and engine"..... There must be more to that story than just the coolant used.

DexCool has had cases where the coolant was used in cast iron engines or engines with iron heads and the system was subsequently run low causing excessive rust deposits that can upset the radiator cap seal and cause further coolant loss, overheating, etc. DexCool provides excellent corrosion protection of castiron as long as it wets the cast iron but if the cast iron is dryed out (due to low fill levels) then the iron will surface rust when dry since there is no residual corrosion protection like silicated coolants provide. As the surface rust is washed off when coolant slugs thru the system the cycle repeats itself until the system is full of ugly rusty brown sludge. That happens from running the system very low....not from using DexCool.

 
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Thanks for putting my mind at ease once again Jestal... :clapping: Since I already bought the Dexcool, I might as well use it. I'll be changing it out in the next year or so, so I can go back to green then.

 
I started using blue ice, non toxic, all the racers use it, expensive though.


I hate to burst your bubble but generally anything a racer uses is not very applicable to street use and because a "racer" uses it is in no means an endorsement that anything works or is applicable to your situation.

If the "blue ice" is indeed coolant and it is non-toxic then it is propyleneglycol and is NOT the best thing for your FJR. High output aluminum engines need very rapid coolant transfer...i.e..high coolant flow rates. Propyleneglycol is more viscous than ethyleneglycol, therefore it flows slower and is counterproductive for good cooling.

Since the product is intended for racing use I suspect it is not a coolant, per se, at least not in the sense that we think of coolants for street use. Street systems designed for day to day use need a coolant like ethyleneglycol mixed 50/50 with water for increased boiling temperature and decreased freezing temperature as well as corrosion protection. Most all racing tracks and sanctioning bodies require vehicles competing to run plain water, however. Plain water just evaporates when spilled on the track....i.e...crashes....where ethyleneglycol and/or propyleneglycol are very slippery, very hard to clean up and very very flammable. That is why EG and PG are banned from use in most pure racing situations. If "blue ice" is a racer specific product then it likely does NOT provide the protection of a "coolant" and you are kidding yourself if you think it is the correct thing for your FJR.

Any references to the stuff?? I wasn't able to find it in a quick google search so I really don't know much about it. There is really no reason to use it, however, as plain old green silicated coolant available in any autoparts or discount store will provide the best performance and protection in the FJR (or other production vehicle) system.

As long as I am hacking on aftermarket crap...er...ah..."coolants" the same holds true for "water wetter" and other similar products. Maybe a minor minor improvement in cooling in a pure water race situation but no advantage at all for passenger vehicle systems and certainly counterproductive in ethyleneglycol systems.

Remember that cooling systems have to do two things. They rid the engine of heat rejected thru cylinder walls and the head least it overheat. This is called "keeping the guage in the green". Secondly, cooling systems eliminate any hot spots inside the engine and reduce or eliminate thermal gradients thoughout the engine to reduce thermal stresses on gaskets, seals, structure, etc. This is an unseen necessity that is difficult if not impossible to measure or monitor. Just because "the gauge is in the green" does NOT mean the cooling system is working correctly nor does it mean that the engine is happy inside. This is important to understand before modifying the cooling system or the coolant because simply watching engine temperature on the gauge is NOT the final word on "cooling". Rapid coolant exchange rates is critical to eliminating thermal gradients therefore increasing viscosity (like by using propyleneglycol) is almost guaranteed to be negative for engine thermal stress even if the "guage is in the green". Same for slowing down coolant flow by putting larger pulleys on the water pump on your street rod. Bad idea. Whoever started the myth that "slowing down the coolant so it can gather more heat and reject more heat" should be shot.

About the only thing to put in the radiator (other than Green/DexCool and distilled water 50/50) is the BarsLeak "golden seal" sealant material that comes in the small tube as a golden colored powder. THAT stuff is VERY effective at sealing coolant leaks and seapages and is VERY effective in automotive systems at preventing coolant leaks into the oil due to internal porosity in castings or gaskets. BarsLeak golden seal powder is a perfect thing to add to your emergency kit as it can easily get you home from a long trip when a stone pokes a hole in a radiator or some other cooling system leak occurs. It will NOT plug heater cores or radiators or cooling passages as is oft reported. Nonsense. If a heater core plugs it is likely due to gelled old silicated coolant and then the Bars material collects in the area and gets the blame. Carry the specific Bars product "golden seal" as an excellent emergency means of fixing a coolant system leak for a lengthy period. I use the stuff in all my cooling systems simply as preventative insurance against unseen internal leaks and carrry it for emergency use on the FJR, snowmobiles, etc.....

 
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Once again, it's posts like these that make this forum the shiznit!

Thanks J. :thumbsup:

 
Dude sure knows his stuff.

OK Jestal gimme a name of a quality green coolant. I'm way overdue to replace mine, and was ready to go out and get the Dexcool as per the the FJRtech article. I too could care less as long as it does it's job well.

Another question. Is there a company out there that makes a "ready to pour" 50/50 mix? Seems much easier than trying to figure out how much distilled water and coolant to use.

BTW..I believe the "blue ice" reference was supposed to be Engine Ice. That stuff is blue. Water Wetter is red.

 
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...and yet the FJR "Blowjob" maintenance article says, "Havoline Dex-Cool is The Shit." And the author has used it for 8 years on 5 different bikes for 350,000 miles w/o problems.
It's like what's the best oil.... there is no "one" correct answer, one "best" product.

I am simply repeating my direct experience with this particular product, that's all.... I happen to know that Dex-Cool has worked perfectly for me personally for many, many years now, and hundreds of thousands of miles in the blazing High Desert of eastern Washington. Since it's been a proven performer for me over the years,that's why I wrote what I wrote in the FJRTech article. It's simply my observation from direct use over many years, nothing more. There are tons of alternative products out there if you feel inclined.....

And hey, the green stuff works fine, too, and several to choose from. Or use your blue, purple, pink version, whichever; the main thing is that you're flushing/refilling the cooling system on some regular basis. If you're going to switch to Dex-Cool, then obviously, you want to do a good job purging the old stuff.

For me, I'm flushing/refilling antifreeze annually as a routine, so it's not like the antifreeze remains in the radiator for any lengthy period of time to cause any mischief....

 
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There's a lot of stuff out there on the subject, but from my reading, a change from green to orange means several thousand kilomteres of NO cooling system corrosion protection while the orange stuff leaches out the silicates in your system - so changing to orange and then back to green is about as protective as running plain water (though you still get most of the temperature boilover protection from the mixed coolants).

The Brown Jello theory actually is tied to contamination of the orange coolant because air gets in the system at temperature - reaction between the hot coolant and the oxygen in the free air causes the 'brown sludge'.

How much did you pay for the Orange? Can you exchange it? Is it's all THAT expensive? For MY money, if gGeen was there, then Green goes back.

Here are some articles:

https://www.angelfire.com/ia2/vmax/coolantnotes.htm

https://www.caranddriver.com/columns/2334/patrick-bedard.html

https://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive...at/1272436.html

https://www.gates.com/downloads/download_co...folder=brochure

https://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us120426.htm

https://www.intermotive.net/Tech%20Tip/Tech...%20-%20June.pdf

 
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d&h said... the green in the '06 is kawi coolant, and to use that at coolant change time...

 
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Another question. Is there a company out there that makes a "ready to pour" 50/50 mix? Seems much easier than trying to figure out how much distilled water and coolant to use.
Okay, I was going to let this go............................but 50/50? (50% antifreeze, 50% distilled water; if you can't do that then you probably shouldn't be changing your own antifreeze.)

If you buy the pre-mixed stuff you're paying extra for water (Even using distilled; they are charging you way too much for them to mix it for you.)

 
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