Starter Issue? Display goes dead.

[Sparky.88]

I've been periodically experiencing a weird starting issue with my '04 FJR. Was hoping someone might have encountered this before and could share their solution.

When I hit the starter switch, the starter responds for a fraction of a second, then stops. All power to the display goes away, clock & tripmeters reset. Hitting the starter again will sometimes produce the same response a couple more times; then it eventually acts totally normal, the starter engages, and the engine fires right up.

Battery checks out fine.

Cruising through the archives, I saw someone mentioned that the starter could be drawing too much current. If so, replacing the starter is the solution, yes?

Years ago I had a similar problem with an old car that ended up being a bad ignition switch wiring harness. Thinking along those lines, any chance my problem could be with the starter switch and/or starter relay rather than the starter? Would either cause the power outage at the display?

Any thoughts / suggestions are much appreciated.

 

[FJRay]

Your symptoms are classic bad battery indication. I would double check the batt and then check the amp draw on the starter. The starter is easy after the total pain in the ass of getting it out. If it is bad I can repair it for you.

 

[escapefjrtist]

Echoing Ray, double check the battery (and connections) and make sure all is up to snuff. Resetting the display on start-up is a sure indication of the battery getting weak. Starter is a PITA to get to...

Good luck!

--G

 

[Justin]

Yup, I read the subject line and though "Bad battery". Keep in mind, even if the battery seems fine and reads 12.6 volts, that it can still be bad. A short in one of the cells will often not show itself until current is drawn and it shorts out.

 

[XWinger]

My 04 was doing the exact same thing,replacing the battery fixed it.

 

[RossKean]

+1 on checking the connections first. You may want to have the battery load tested to make sure it can supply the appropriate cranking amps without the voltage dropping too far. Before considering a starter repair/replacement, put a DC ammeter on the battery when cranking. Not sure what "normal" might be (do a search) but if excessively high, its most likely the starter. A bad solenoid might give you intermittant problems with starting but I doubt it would result in a high current draw (which drops the voltage and resets the clock).

 

[yamafitter]

+1 on load testing the battery since this is simple to do. If the battery is good then the likely cause is the starter needs a good internal cleaning and rebuild. Bad contacts on the starter relay can also cause a high current draw due to high resistance across the relay contacts. One way to check this is to measure the voltage drop across the relay contacts while the bike is trying to start. If there is a significant voltage drop then the contacts are burnt causing high resistance and the relay should be replaced.

 

[Fred W]

The loss of gauges indicates a severely low voltage condition during cranking. Anything that can cause the battery voltage to appear to be low can be the cause.

As others have said, the most likely cause would be the battery. Even a battery that tests OK would be suspect in my book just because it is such a classic battery symptom.

Next most likely would be a bad (resistive) connection to the battery terminals (either positive or negative) or wiring which could result in the low voltage when high current is being called for by the starter.

Only after absolutely every other possibility has been eliminated would I consider the starter as the culprit. Yes, it has happened before, but not nearly as often as the other scenarios, and it is far more invasive to yank the starter, and even more expensive to buy a new one.

 

[ionbeam]

+1 on load testing the battery since this is simple to do. If the battery is good then the likely cause is the starter needs a good internal cleaning and rebuild. Bad contacts on the starter relay can also cause a high current draw due to high resistance across the relay contacts. One way to check this is to measure the voltage drop across the relay contacts while the bike is trying to start. If there is a significant voltage drop then the contacts are burnt causing high resistance and the relay should be replaced.

I see yamafitter is still on his meds

EDIT: I see Fred posted overlapping information while I was typing the following.

The meter assembly is resetting due to low voltage. This can be caused by a weak battery, poor cable connections at the battery or bad starter. The battery can be weak because of poor charging or it is just plain not working. There are options about how to proceed.

Check the connections on the battery, you are going to have to access the battery anyway so start with the basics.

Best option, put a current probe/meter on the battery and push the starter. Low current is a battery problem, high current (>40 amps) is a starter problem.

Next best option, have the battery load tested after it has been fully charged. This isn't always 100% definitive. If it tests weak then it is the battery, if the battery passes the load test it still

*might* be bad.

Option 3, charge the battery over night, disconnected from the motorcycle. Disconnect the battery from the charger and let is sit for 30 minutes to an hour and measure the voltage (while disconnected from everything). If the battery voltage is <12.8 volts the battery is bad.

Given that the problem is intermittent it would seem that the problem is (unlikely) a charging issue or (likely) a starter problem. What is the voltage at the battery once the engine is warmed up? Waiting until the engine is warm gives the charging system time to recover the battery from the current hit by the starter. Ideally you should see >14.x volts, if it is <13.2 volts you have a charging issue.

For all the work to access the starter and the cost of a replacement starter, the current meter is the best diagnostic tool.

Beyond this point there be dragons.

===================================================================

The starter has brushes that deliver battery power to the commutator. The commutator has a number of individual contacts that the brushes deliver power to and energize the starter windings causing the motor to spin. In the following picture (of an Old Wing) starter the commutators are on the left end. Over time bits of copper and brush material will start to collect in the slots between the isolated copper contacts causing them to short together. Add a leaking seal that lets engine oil into the starter and it gets worse. If only a couple of contacts were shorted you get a gamble -- if the brushes are in contact with NOT shorted contacts, the starter will turn and act normal even though current draw will be high. If the brushes are on shorted contacts the starter may not turn at all or just a small amount, you get a no spin condition and the meter assembly resets. This can also happen the same way with the same symptoms if the insulation on adjacent windings breaks down and some of the windings short together.

 

[Fred W]

Yes, still getting used to this iPad thingee, which is why my post content has been brief lately. Ion's post is far more informative and complete, though at least we agree about the diagnosis and Rx.

It is far harder to do anything on one of these apple juice tablets, IMO but my company has provided me one (for an inexplicable reason) so I thought I'd get to know it a little better while on vacation. I greatly prefer using my windoze desktop any day, but it doesn't fit into my suitcase as easily.

 

[kmk]

My 04 has done this since I got it 4 years ago, it only does it when its hot, I have replaced the battery and it still repeats, but again only when hot. Is yours temperature sensitive? I have not replaced the starter yet, which I believe to be the issue.. after reading this thread https://www.fjrforum.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=140905

If it fails to start I just have to give it 10 -20 min to cool and it will fire right up. For now I keep an extra key on me so I don't have to turn it off to access the saddlebags or the top case... refueling is always a gamble...

 

[JR'SFJR]

My starter issue wasn't intermittent, but slowed just before firing. I checked battery cable connections and the battery passed a load test. I installed a clamp on induction DC ammeter to the positive cable. Shifter in neutral. I jammed a screwdriver between the two big bolts on the starter relay to make the starter turned over without the ignition key turned on. In 2-3 seconds, the engine cranking almost stopped, battery voltage dropped to round 7 1/2 volts and starter draw was well over 200 amps(about 3 times what it should be). On vehicles, a standard cranking test is for 15 sec., staying above 9.6 volts at the correct starter amp. draw to pass. I had to pull my starter and clean the armature commutator grooves. So, when you're FJR doesn't want to crank over, you might try the screwdriver trick to see if anything happens, eliminating the relay. I use to do voltage drops all the time like Yamafitter explained if you couldn't find loose or hot connections. Resistance in the starting circuit does cause slower starter cranking speed and increases the amp draw.

 

[Fred W]

I fail to see how a bad (resistive) relay in the starter circuit would draw excess current.

Turn over slow? Yes. But it would not pull down the battery voltage.

 

[yamafitter]

Think inrush current and/or locked rotor. If the starter does not produce enough rpm due to low voltage, there is not enough back emf to limit current flow so high current draw which will drop battery voltage. Yes the high resistance of the relay will somewhat limit current flow bit does not completely countrrbalance the current flow caused by the locked rotor. Usually this will cause the fuse to blow or the relay contacts to deteriorate until they burn themselves open if it goes that far. I have seen this in the field and the damage it causes irregardless what the prof says.

 

[Fred W]

I agree if / when the reason for the reduced starter rpm is either mechanical resistance ( either in the starter itself or the engine it is trying to spin) or else a starter electrical problem.

But if the reason for the reduced starter motor rpm is a lack of EMF applied to the starter due to a resistive relay it doesn't make any sense that the circuit will draw excess current and sack out the battery.

 

[ionbeam]

I agree if / when the reason for the reduced starter rpm is either mechanical resistance ( either in the starter itself or the engine it is trying to spin) or else a starter electrical problem.
But if the reason for the reduced starter motor rpm is a lack of EMF applied to the starter due to a resistive relay it doesn't make any sense that the circuit will draw excess current and sack out the battery.

Thnks!

 

[Sparky.88]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll start troubleshooting at the battery: voltage check; load test; connections. Then move on to the relay. And the starter if all others options have crapped out.

And kmk - mine does not seem to be temperature sensitive. It started doing it months ago when temp's were still cold and battery was quite new. I wish I had made note of when it first occurred to see how closely it coincided with the new (but possibly flakey?) battery.

 

[JR'SFJR]

I have demonstrated this so many times on vehicles(not motorcycles), where we had expensive battery-starter-alternator testers in the shop with a inductive amp. clamp. Lets say was have a good cranking system with normal starter draw and battery voltage after a 15 second test. Voltage drop on the positive side(+ bat. terminal, cable, relay, bolt into starter) should be less than .6 volts and the ground side less than .2(starter case back to minus bat. terminal). Now lets add some resistance on the ground side. Disconnect the neg. battery cable from the battery, insert a smaller dia. foot long jumper or a long jumper cable between the neg. battery terminal and the neg. cable just removed. Now crank it and see what happens. The cranking will be slower, the amp draw goes up, and now the voltage drop on the ground side might be 2-3-4 volts instead of .2 I have asked other instructors, mechanics and have been told the draw goes up because the starter isn't getting nearly enough voltage to work efficiently. I know it doesn't make sense unless you see it for yourself and it defies ohm's law. Go try it.

When the numbers didn't look right, I always did voltage drops to keep myself out of trouble before removing a starter.

 

[ionbeam]

I have demonstrated this so many times on vehicles... blah, blah, blah...Now crank it and see what happens. The cranking will be slower, the amp draw goes up...I know it doesn't make sense unless you see it for yourself and it defies ohm's law...

Watts up with that? Err, it's about the watts. Even though you are playing games to force voltage and current to change the load resistance remains essentially the same so the delivered watts remain the same until the battery starts to deplete. The voltage/current ratio will proportionally go down and the watts will reduce by the same percentage.