Starter Issues

[101stpathfinder]

My bike started developing starting issues in July last year. During the 2nd Leg of the IBR the starter began to drag so bad at bonus locations, that I would leave it running. I passed it off as just extreme abuse that was taking its toll on the bike. After the IBR I was able to pin point when and what was actually occurring.

The bike starts fine on a cold start, perhaps a little drag - but it starts. Then if I ride the bike for say… 100 miles or so, shut the bike off and try an immediate restart, it will not start. It drags to no where. Now if I leave the bike sit for awhile (Cooling) it will start again with the same slight drag of a cold start.

I have spoken with quite a few riders with more knowledge than I and most agree that the starter is on the way out. So I am looking for help here with a solution. I have checked the "Bay" for used starters and they do exist. The affordable (Under $200) ones have excessive rust signs or plain just looked beat death. I found a new starter for $325 shipped which seems the direction I am headed.

Does anyone have a better source? (Cheaper) I just don't want to spin the bottle with a used one since I have a big ride in less than 2 months. I than would like to try a rebuild with Jim ( flab) instructing me as I fumble through the process. The new starter would be installed and unlimited time could be spent on the rebuild.

The rebuild would be for learning, but a rebuilt starter lying around with 2 FJRs could not be a bad thing. Any one would advise different? ANY advice at all would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[FJRay]

The hard part is getting to it. I've done a number of FJR starters and have yet to need any parts. Because they are sealed all the crap builds up to the point they quit working.

I throw the armature in the lathe and clean it up , make sure the undercuts are good, clean up the brush holders ( I have yet to find worn out brushes) , lube it up and assemble. A quick bench test and away you go. I usually have a couple rebuilt ready to ship but the last couple haven't come back yet.

If you can find a cheap core I'll do it up and send it back to you so you can install it and send me the old one so it will be ready when you need it.

 

[101stpathfinder]

So Skooter's pic here:

is what I will most likely find?

I have 185k on mine, if I remember when he did his write up he had 140k on this one.

 

[FJRay]

I think the most I've seen is about 120k. A lot depends on how it's used. One could go all day with just a few starts or be in town running errands and see a ton of starts in a day. And then there is the SKOOTER factor.

 

[2fjr]

I appear to have the same issue. Starts great cold, drags when hot, but not totally predictable. The battery voltage is good and was new last summer. I would love to do an exchange on a rebuild if that is the issue. Is there a writeup on the replacement procedure anywhere?

 

[RadioHowie]

Is there a writeup on the replacement procedure anywhere?

Here's your "writeup" --

Take EVERYTHING apart between the triple-tree and the seat!

 

[bramfrank]

Are you ABSOLUTELY certain that it isn't your battery?

I ask because my tale of woe seemed to have doomed me to replace a starter when in fact I'd been through 3 bad batteries in a row.

I had done my research and settled on a Motobat battery - when it came in and after charging it would start the bike just fine, but if I switched off for a couple of minutes forget it - it simply couldn't crank - it also lost charge over time, which at the time was suggested to be a sneak discharge current (so I left it on the battery maintainer) - and again it would start fine and the bike's charger was fine, yet it was 'hit or miss' as to whether it would start when it was warmed up.

So measure your starter current before you take your bike apart. In my case the solution was to buy a proper Yuasa battery.

 

[snikr]

My bike started developing starting issues in July last year. During the 2nd Leg of the IBR the starter began to drag so bad at bonus locations, that I would leave it running. I passed it off as just extreme abuse that was taking its toll on the bike. After the IBR I was able to pin point when and what was actually occurring.

The bike starts fine on a cold start, perhaps a little drag - but it starts. Then if I ride the bike for say… 100 miles or so, shut the bike off and try an immediate restart, it will not start. It drags to no where. Now if I leave the bike sit for awhile (Cooling) it will start again with the same slight drag of a cold start.

I have spoken with quite a few riders with more knowledge than I and most agree that the starter is on the way out. So I am looking for help here with a solution. I have checked the "Bay" for used starters and they do exist. The affordable (Under $200) ones have excessive rust signs or plain just looked beat death. I found a new starter for $325 shipped which seems the direction I am headed.

Does anyone have a better source? (Cheaper) I just don't want to spin the bottle with a used one since I have a big ride in less than 2 months. I than would like to try a rebuild with Jim ( flab) instructing me as I fumble through the process. The new starter would be installed and unlimited time could be spent on the rebuild.

The rebuild would be for learning, but a rebuilt starter lying around with 2 FJRs could not be a bad thing. Any one would advise different? ANY advice at all would be appreciated.

Thanks

I had the same problem with my 2004 FJR. Long story short.....I had someone take the starter apart and clean it up, have someone check it out (mine was good) and put in a new battery, Get one that has the most Cold Cranking Amps you can get. That is what fixed my 04. Hope this helps.

 

[2fjr]

Taking things one step at a time, today I pulled the battery out of the bike. This is a Westco from last spring. I still have the old Westco I took out of the bike, and it was from 2010. I had replaced it simply because of it's age. Took them both to Batteries plus for a load test. This part is somewhat interesting.

The newer battery had been resting for several days, no charger. It read 13.2 volts and showed 175 CCA. This is down 10 CCA from spec, and the voltage is strangely high for a rested battery.

The OLD battery showed 12.8 and 210 CCA! I wonder if Westco has downgraded the battery specs since 2010?

Got home, put the OLD battery back in and fired it up. Popping the revs up to about 3-4K the voltage is only showing 13.5 ish, read directly at the battery terminals. I think it should be up in the 14 - 14.5 area, right?

Not sure what my next move will be, but it seems like my alt output is a bit low.

 

[mcatrophy]

?..Got home, put the OLD battery back in and fired it up. Popping the revs up to about 3-4K the voltage is only showing 13.5 ish, read directly at the battery terminals. I think it should be up in the 14 - 14.5 area, right?

....

What state of charge was this battery? How long did you run it for? Unless the battery is near fully charged, its charging voltage will be lower than the voltage when fully charged.
[edit] The diagram below is one from Yuasa's web site and shows charging voltage and state of charge ("Charged volume").

click on image for larger view



[/edit]

 

[wfooshee]

Pathfinder, you need to find the current draw while starting. More than 75 or 80 amps you need a starter. That number or a little less, you [probably] need a battery.

Good (but slowish) cold starts and non-existant hot starts are exactly what I experienced when i went through this in 2009. Got a starter from a forum member and was good to go.

2fjr, Howie's answer is a bit succinct but absolutely true. Here's mine torn down to remove the starter.....

 

[RadioHowie]

Got home, put the OLD battery back in and fired it up. Popping the revs up to about 3-4K the voltage is only showing 13.5 ish, read directly at the battery terminals. I think it should be up in the 14 - 14.5 area, right?
Not sure what my next move will be, but it seems like my alt output is a bit low.

Ya gotta put the battery on a charger all night, THEN measure the running voltage at the battery terminals.

Then, with a fully charged battery, it shouldn't be sucking many (if any) volts out of the terminal cables and you'll get an honest reading, voltage-wise, of what your charging system is putting out.

You should be seeing 14.0-14.5 volts DC from idle to 4k rpm. If not, you may have a charging system issue.

 

[RadioHowie]

Walt's picture tells only PART of the story...

There are only 3 bolts attaching the starter to the block. Just 3 and out she comes!

Unfortunately, you've got to (the equivalent of) climb Mount Everest, fly to the moon, and make a woman happy.....to get to those 3 bolts.

Have fun!

 

[2fjr]

Good idea.....it's on the battery tender now.

"climb Mount Everest, fly to the moon, and make a woman happy.....to get to those 3 bolts."

Well, 2 out of three ain't bad. Not interested in the mountain.

 

[RadioHowie]

You TOTALLY misunderstood............

You're thinking of what you'd have to do WITH a woman to make YOU happy.

NOT the same thing....Everest and the Moon are MUCH easier to accomplish.

 

[2fjr]

You TOTALLY misunderstood............
You're thinking of what you'd have to do WITH a woman to make YOU happy.

NOT the same thing....Everest and the Moon are MUCH easier to accomplish.

Right you are.....I missed it. I feckin hate shopping.

 

[101stpathfinder]

I ordered a brand stinkin' new starter, shipped to my door for $324. I want to rebuild the old one for the experience AND having a spare sitting around with 2 FJRs can't be a bad thing.

Jim (fljab) will be my master mechanic, he will correct my screw-ups. I have got a big ride coming up, so it's gonna happen soon.

 

[2fjr]

Alrighty then...

Battery was fully charged, disconnected and rested overnight. It shows 12.9 volts. Start the bike and run the revs up to 4.5K and I show 13.9volts at the most. This was checked with two digital multimeters which agree within a couple of tenths. Seems low to me. Fook, I hate chasing electrical crap around. Any suggestions for my next step?

 

[RadioHowie]

I just went thru this exact same rigamarole 2 weeks ago. Charge the battery, bike starts fine in the morning, go to work, starts okay (a little slower) in the afternoon, and when I get home after a 45 minute ride home, won't start at all. My open-circuit "just charged" voltage was 13.7 volts, but after a 45 minute, 30 mile ride home, it was down to 11.0 volts. But, even with what appeared to be a failing battery, I was seeing 14.5 volts at the battery terminals at 5000rpm, so my charging system wasn't suspect. I was fooled by my "just charged" voltage of 13.7, but that was simply a "surface charge" that disappeared after my back and forth commute and the voltage required to run the bike was using up everything the stator was putting out and my marginal battery wasn't recharging enough.

From my 2004 FSM...

As per the Factory Service Manual, 12.8 volts, open-circuit value (IOTW, not connected) is "normal" so your 12.9v appears to be okay, unless you're reading the "surface charge" of a freshly re-charged battery,

To confirm your battery's "true" condition, put your battery on the charger again overnight. Check the voltage in the morning. You'll probably see ~12.8v again. Now, with zero load, i.e., disconnect the negative cable if the battery is in the bike, walk away for 4 to 12 hours. Re-check the voltage. If your "rested" battery is still showing ~12.8v, then it would appear your battery is okay. If it is less than what you read 4 to 12 hours earlier, I recommend a new battery.

Charging voltage at the battery terminals with a "charged" battery @ 5000rpm shouid be 14v~!4.5v. 13.9v is "by-the-book" low. But hell, it's just 1/10th of a volt. MANY Gen II owners with 10 to 20 thousand + miles on their bikes see less than 14v all the time, but that's a wiring harness issue from the R/R to the battery, and shouldn't be the problem with your superior Gen I, so.....

Next step is to check the resistance of the stator windings with the bike NOT running. Unplug the three wire connector from the stator to the Rectifier/Regulator and check the three pins with your multimeter set to Ohms. Check the resistance of wire #1 to wire #2 then #1 to #3. Your ohmage should be in the range from .15 to .23 ohms. It really doesn't matter which wire you select as #1, as long as you check 1 to 2, then 1 to 3.

If you get vastly different readings between #1>#2 and #1>#3, you could be looking at a bad/failing staton.

FInally, switch your multimeter over to check AC voltage in the 100v range, start your bike and read the voltage coming from the stator connector unplugged from the R/R. From pin 1 to pin 2, then pin 1 to pin 3, then pin 2 to pin 3 -- 3 separate readings -- you should see >50 volts AC on all three checks. If there is a serious discrepancy in the readings, then your stator is almost certainly in need of replacement.