Weird symptoms. Need your expertise please...

[mikerider]

Hi there,

I recently have a weird symptom that I really couldn't figure out. 

- I have a 2014 with 40k miles and I'm the original owner. Runs perfectly since new and I ride everyday here in SoCal to/from work for 50 miles round trip.

From day 1, I filled up usually at around 250 miles, with about 5.7 Gallons (so it had about 0.9 Gal left). It runs perfectly without missing a beat for the last 40K miles.

Recently, for the last few weeks, right after I filled up and started the bike, it died. The engine started fine, as always, but the RPM dropped to below 1000 ( I guess it was about 700-800) and died. Restarted it. Same thing. Only after I held and blipped the throttle to keep the rpm up for a few minutes, then it was fine. After that, it idles normally.

- It couldn't be the gas, right?  Because it happened only **immediately** after refueled. Once I held/blipped the throttle to keep the rpm up for a few minutes, it runs fine for the rest of the 250 miles without a glitch.  I have also used seafoam to see if it cleaned out any residue but nothing improved.

- It happened for the last 4 fuel up now. Every single time. The same symptom after refuel. The same hold/blip the throttle and then it ran great for another 250 miles.

What could this be? I'd truly and greatly appreciate any comment and suggestion. 

Thank you all!

mike-

 

[BkerChuck]

It does seem odd to have it for 4 straight fill ups. Gas stations usually churn through sufficient quantities that your first batch and the last are highly unlikely to have come from the same tanker load. Are you getting fuel at the same station every time? How is your idle after the bike is up to temp? It's possible your idle is too low? Recent TBS done? Possible cracked or missing vacuum cap on a throttle body. 

Speculation on my part. Keep us posted if you find something.

 

[RossKean]

As silly as it sounds, make sure that your battery connections are clean and tight.

Any recent maintenance on the bike?

 

[SkooterG]

Are you overfilling?  I do it all the time with no problem but I am assuming you have a California model with the charcoal canister.  Those can cause some issues but usually only when hot out and exposed to direct sunlight when the tank is full.  Perhaps your charcoal canister is 'full' and causes issues until you open up the throttle and get it cleaned out?  I am guessing here, but I would consider the charcoal canister as a possible root cause.  Especially since it is just after fueling.

What is your maintenance history?  When was the last time you changed plugs and performed a Throttle Body Sync?  Maybe you are due for a throttle body cleaning.  That sounds weird to me, but I seem to remember reading about some issues lately that it fixed?

 

[mikerider]

Thank you all (bkerchuck, rosskean, shooterG), I appreciate your inputs.

- Yes, I was getting fuel from the same gas stations (76) as it's on my way to work. I didn't think it was the gas so I did not switch. I think it wasn't the gas only because after the hiccup **immediately** after the refuel, it runs perfectly until the next refuel, hot or cold. I'll switch it on next fuel up to see if anything different.

- TBS was done when it was 600 miles. I use seafoam occasionally to try to clean. The plugs are still original (mea culpa!) but the air filter and all fluids are up to date. If it's the plugs, wouldn't it run rough all the time? The hiccup happened only after refuel. Then it runs as smooth and as strong as a new bike until next refuel.

- Yes, it's a California bike. But if it's the charcoal canister, wouldn't it be all cleared by the time I refuel (after 250 miles)? I always refueled the same way I did since I got it new: to the bottom of the gas tank neck.

- Yes, I already checked the battery connection when I got the same symptom the 2nd time. All clean and tight.

- No recent maintenance before this all started. I ride about 250 miles a week to/from work. So it started to happen about a month ago.

- The question is still: it happened IMMEDIATELY after refuel. The idle dropped too low and the engine died. However, after I blipped/held the throttle the keep the RPM up for a few minutes, everything was back to normal: perfect idle HOT or COLD, runs as good and as smooth as when it was new until the next refuel. The symptom never happened again until refuel.

When it happened once, twice, I kind of brushed it off. But now it happened 4 times in a row. I usually refuel every week as I commute 50 miles/day to/from work. Didn't make any long trip for a while

Thank you all! I sincerely appreciate all your inputs.

mike-

 

[chrisz]

When you open the gas cap to refuel, any odd pressure/vacuum noticed?

 

[rbentnail]

- Yes, it's a California bike. But if it's the charcoal canister, wouldn't it be all cleared by the time I refuel (after 250 miles)? I always refueled the same way I did since I got it new: to the bottom of the gas tank neck.
 

mike-

Not necessarily.  I recall problems with BMW canister contents turning to slush over time.  Overfilling can cause problems.  Tell me, does the gas nozzle you use have one of those accordion rubber attachments to keep the vent fumes in the tank?  The way you describe it it sure sounds like a venting problem, especially since it happens right after fill up then not again until the next fill up.

 

[dravnx]

Next time you fuel up, leave the gas cap open and try starting the engine. If this cures the problem then you know you have a fuel venting/charcoal canister issue. The canister scrubs the fumes out of the tank vent. If you frequently overfill the tank, fuel gets into the canister and turns the charcoal into a slurry that clogs the vent. 

Thinking out loud here but if the vent is clogged, it shouldn't keep you from starting the engine. It would die once the tank vacuum builds up enough to prevent the pump from drawing fuel. Or maybe the pump draws so much that a vacuum is created as soon as the pump starts and fuel flow is restricted. 

 

[escapefjrtist]

Sure does sound like the charcoal canister system is giving you fits. As Skooter mentioned, there's been a more than a few complaints of rich / rough running Cali bikes after sitting in the sun. If the CC is starting to deteriorate I could see it causing problems after fueling.

~G

 

[Cyclepath]

My pappy's old common sense about checking / replacing a fuel filter - does that apply here?

Good luck in your quest...

 

[Bounce]

Sure sounds like a fueling issue. (fuel, air, fire, pressure). I was thinking tank vent at first but when the CA Canister was mentioned, I jumped on board with that. I don't (and haven't had) a CA model (so don't go there right off the bat) but I have heard about canisters being an issue on lots of bikes from many different brands.

Both are not complex to address in your garage so are worth a look.

 

[hppants]

If he tries to start it with the fuel filler open, wouldn't that throw a Check Engine light because the fuel system can't pressurize properly?

I'm interpreting your description literally - this ONLY happens after you stop at the gas station and fill the tank up - correct?  If you stop at your work say, at half tank, it will NEVER happen - right?

I don't think you mentioned anything about your fuel mileage - any changes since this problem started?

How about stopping at the gas station and only putting 2 gallons in it - does it do the same thing?

Try a 1/2 can of seafoam at the next fill up - possible piece of crap on one of your injectors?

Try one thing at a time - systematically.

I don't think it's related to your problem, but you should go ahead and change those spark plugs.  I think the 8K recommended interval is BUSH, but 40K on standard plugs is probably pushing it.

 

[RossKean]

My pappy's old common sense about checking / replacing a fuel filter - does that apply here?

Good luck in your quest...

No replaceable fuel filter on an FJR but it might be worthwhile to check the condition of the inside of the tank.  Dirt or corrosion could possibly plug the pickup screen of the fuel pump.

 

[Boston]

Don't run it so low. Maybe sucking air. IMHO

 

[mikerider]

Thank you all! I truly appreciate your inputs as they give me things to try. 

- @hppants: yes, it only happened IMMEDIATELY after I fuel up. After the original hiccup, it never happened again until next fuel up. Yes, with full or half-tank it didn' t matter, after the hiccup, it always started and idle (with HOT or COLD engine) as it's supposed to. Fuel mileage didn't change since it was new: about 250 miles / 5.7 gal = 43.8 mpg (when I commute to/from work, I always refuel at 250 +- a couple miles as my round trip is 50 miles and I ride 5 days a week. Yes, I already trying seafoam after the 2nd times but  it didn't change anything.

- Where is this charcoal canister located on a 2014A? If it's not too much trouble to access it, I can temporarily bypass it before my next fuel up to see if it's the source of the problem, then we'll know for sure. If I understand correctly, there are only 2 hoses going to/from the canister: 1 in (from the tank) and 1 out (back to the tank or engine?) yes? Then I can plug them both without affecting anything else, yes?

Thank you so much everyone. I need to buy all of you beers 1 of these days!

 

[mikerider]

@hppants, Oh, I haven't tried just putting in only a couple of gallons. I'll try it next time. 

Yes, here in California, all gas station nozzles have this bellow that sucks fume to prevent venting out to the atmosphere. However, it's hard to fill up motorcycle tank like a car (by sticking the nozzle all the way in to activate the pump) so I always compress the bellow with my left hand (or gas wouldn't come out) while sticking the nozzle in the tank. I usually fill until the level is below the gas tank neck (not to the brim). That was the same way for the last 40k miles

 

[mikerider]

Ok, checking the FSM diagram, I saw 3 hoses connected to the charcoal canister: 1 goes to the outside under the bike for venting, 1 goes to a T that goes to cyl #3 and #4, 1 goes to a roll-over check valve to the tank.

For a quick test, if I just plug the one that goes to the T (so the engine doesn't suck in the charcoal air), I'm all set. But it looks like I'll have to lift the tank...

 

[Geezer]

Ok, checking the FSM diagram, I saw 3 hoses connected to the charcoal canister: 1 goes to the outside under the bike for venting, 1 goes to a T that goes to cyl #3 and #4, 1 goes to a roll-over check valve to the tank.

For a quick test, if I just plug the one that goes to the T (so the engine doesn't suck in the charcoal air), I'm all set. But it looks like I'll have to lift the tank...

I think you want to open the one that goes from the tank to the charcoal canister so the tank can breathe with the canister out of the loop. 

 

[Bill Lumberg]

My BMW seized up and had to have some costly repairs due to the evap/charcoal can belching gas/charcoal pudding into the fuel filter/pump. I’d look closely at something related to the charcoal canister or related hoses, since you’re getting symptoms after a fuel stop. If you’re a guy that puts as much gas into the tank as he can at every fill-up, you’re a prime candidate, though it could be a random clog..