What would you do?

[radman]

Those of you with kids may recognise my situation here, especially those of you whom have had a split within the family. I have 2 daughters, both of whom live and have lived far from me for many years. One, the older, is as much as anyone could hope for in a child. A college grad, with a degree in horticulture, she is successful beyond measure. Has her own place, new car, dumped a loser boyfriend of many years standing and became better for it, and is as solid and happy as one could hope for. The younger is a whole different ball game, as opposite as you can imagine. A high school dropout, she is into the punk lifestyle, a boozer and druggie, hates everything, everyone, and seems as miserable as a human could be. She disappeared for a year, re-appeared emaciated, strung out, I suspect she prostituted herself to survive, and I fear for her, very much so. Her mother cannot deal with her (nor should she have to, she is 24 now), and has been beaten up by her (yes, I mean physically) to the point where she is afraid of her. She has been in detox many times, put on 72 hour holds to the point where she knows many in the system on a first name basis. I am afraid that the call to attend a funeral is not that far off. What in the fuck can I, a father who has no real standing in this mess, and who is so far away, do? She won't come here to stay (not that, to be honest, I would welcome such a move, my present wife and her would be at each others throats in a heartbeat), she has no job, has never been able to hold one for more than a few months before she attacks someone. When I visited her and her sister a month ago, I was shocked by what had once been a lively, beautiful young woman turned into a near photo image of Aileen Wuornos. I am at my wits end as to how to help, or even deal with, this horrendous situation. Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.

 

[twowheelnut]

I hate to even mention this warmy touchy feely new age crap, but I've seen it work... You need to do an intervention. I don't know the details of this process, nor have I personally experienced one, but I've seen some amazing results. Get hold of a counselor (maybe a freebie from the U of M?) and have them 'splain it to you.

I feel for you and yours, brudda. I hope she 'comes back' to you and your family.

Best,

-TDub

 

[PapaUtah]

Had a family member who was given the choice of Hazelden Clinic or Stillwater State Prison by the SE MN Drug Interdiction Task Force several years ago. He chose Hazelden. Saved his life. Sometimes the choices need to be that drastic before they wakeup.

You have my best wishes! I hope whatever it is works out for her.

Peace.

 

[Bounce]

I have a step sister. Long story. Acoholic, drug user, bipolar is the core problem. Gets the medical help but won't stay on the program once she feels better. The manic phases "go away" along with the depressive ones. That means no "super woman great times" and that means that her perception is the medication is not working (an even keal is fine to avoid the depression but the manic phase is sorely missed).

She has tapped out at least 5 different SO's over the years (along with the families of same when allowed to). She took lunch money from her kids when they were in grade school so she could "party with her friends". She shot at her brother when her kids were present on more than one occasion. She claimed he was trying to "take her stuff" when he was trying to get her to calm down and not hurt anyone. On and on.

Over the past 30 years people have put their houses and futures at risk as they bailed her out of one trouble after another. Each "break" becomes increasingly more "out there" than the next and it's impossible to get her committed against her will in spite of multiple incidents on her record of DUI, and various altercations. Some discussion is now that, perhaps if people would have let her deal with the repercussions of her actions earlier, it would have turned her around. Now her "salvation by others" is ingrained into her and taken for granted.

Most people have had to step back and wash their hands of the whole mess to avoid being dragged down with her. As hard as it was for some to do, it was a matter or personal survival. Her self destructive nature is what it is. People have tried and tried and the end result is always the same. There comes a point where either things get better or they don't. This is one of those cases where it won't. Everyone's hope is that she doesn't take anyone else with her when she goes.

You have to ask yourself if you have done what can be done or if there is more you can (or are willing) to try. Many people have to hit bottom before they look up. It's a tough time for you and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Dig deep and look at all the options. Physical attacks against your wife would be grounds to kick her out because of the risk she poses to others. From there helping her while she remains "outside the nest" still offers many options; most of which require her cooperation and desire to change. Without that willingness there is prayer and a vigalence by others so as not to get caught in some kind of whirpool descent.

 

[GunMD]

Not to be the pessimist, but in my opinion (which is in no way a professional one) a person has to WANT it. They have to want it, whatever "it" is...be it getting clean, getting stable, holding a job, etc. And unfortunately the events that cause a person to come to this sudden realization are often unpleasant...meaning that they usually bottom out before they realize that they WANT it.

I certainly hope there's another way in this situation. By you expressing a heartfelt desire to help her she's already ahead of many people in her situation. Many people have nobody to look out for them or care for them.

My best to you and yours while ya'll get this figured out.

"We now return you to regularly scheduled programming."

 

[Jetmaker737]

Dude, I don't think there's much you can or should do. At his point she is an adult and completely responsible for her own future. It is not your responsibility to risk your own future or that of your wife for her. Yes, she's your kid and you sound worried to death, but from your description she's a goner and will need to explore the depths of hell before she gets a clue..if she lives through it.

Everybody makes choices in life and then they live with them. Sorry man, what a crappy mess.

 

[FJRottie]

She sounds like a mess.

Maybe she needs the crap scared out of her. Maybe an intervention like TWN stated.

Like GunMD said, she has to "want" to smarten/clean up. Sounds like she is at rock bottom already.

Could be a lost cause. You can only do so much.

This is copied from an Internet Psychologist;

A person with an addiction needs to start feeling the pain from the consequences of their actions before he or she can start making changes. The process of feeling the pain is a lengthy one, as the pain often serves as a stimulus to start one's self-defense mechanisms. These protect and maintain one's self-esteem (through the denial that one is an addict), allowing one to rationalize and continue with the behavior. In many cases, the loss of, or prospect of losing, a relationship or something of similar value can often help the person to recognize that there is a problem. Legal charges or an arrest (e.g., for possession of illegal drugs or driving under the influence) can also contribute to this awareness.

Typically the person needs to hear a repeated message (with specific observations) from family and friends that they are seeing a problem. While this information will likely not serve as an immediate stimulus to seek help, the repetition of the overall message can help to counter the "powerful and long-maintained" element of denial.

 

[toophast]

Radman, similar situation here with my oldest, won't bother ya'all with the details, but as stated before...she has to see it herself and want it herself. The most important thing for you to keep in mind is that the last thing you should allow is for it to screw you up (or things with you and your present wife). Just a thought, maybe you might want to see someone (counsler type, do you have an Employee Assistance Program?) to help you from being hurt by this anymore than you can help. They might be able to give you some idea's on how and/or how much to help your daughter while maintaining yourself.

And thank you for thinking enough of us to bare a part of your soul to us...I'm impressed (and that's not easy to do)

Take care

Gary

 

[Rogue]

I know it hurts but she has to want to get better before she can be helped.

My Grand Mother kicked my Uncle out (Drinking problem, Lost wife, house, job ect...) and he was on skid row for three years before he decided he wanted to get better and has been dry for 20 years.

If she decides she needs help find the best rehab clinic (I happen to have some data on this) and help her but no one can be forced to clean themselves up.

 

[FJRocket]

If you've done intervention, if she's been in and out of programs, if she wants to play the system and not merge with what most of us call normal society there's not much you can do but try and help yourself. Perhaps the best way is to tell her you love her and want to help her, but you won't jeapordize your own life and marriage unless she's wants to lead a normal clean life. Then wish her well, say goodbye, and let her go.

It took my mother and father nearly 40 years to realize that my oldest brother was never going to change his ways. Fortunately, my brother has survived and has mellowed now that he's nearly 60. But the heartache he's caused my family, especially my parents, was hard to bare. Finally my Dad listened to everyone and realized that he could not change my brother's stripes, and that constantly bailing him out was not helping.

Regrettably, leading up to this was me being rather harsh with my father, telling him that I would not have any discussions with him that included the soap opera that my brother's life had become. We all had enough problems to deal with, let alone the unnecessary trauma inflicted vicariously though my brother. Very hard thing for my father to endure, more the fact that his first son was a derelict.

If you have tried all the good advise offered before mine, do yourself and your entire family a favor and cut your daughter loose. As much as she is breaking your heart, some people just cannot be fixed, will not be helped, and are a cancer upon those around them. Let her go. That doesn't mean you stop loving her and caring about her. It will be hard, it will hurt, and you will regret it. But she may just see the light a little faster that way, and maybe she'll come back around. But SHE has to do it on her own. There's only so much you can do, and it sounds to me like you've already done enough.

 

[zorkler]

As a former junkie there are 2 thing she can do . go straight or get high thats it cut and dry . remember she is in very much pain inside . all you can do is show love and compasion .

 

[radman]

Appreciate all the responses. Some clarification is in order however. I am familiar with the system to a degree-I'm a drunk, charter member of AA and all that, so I understand the hitting bottom and so forth. But this young lady has surpassed my bottom to the n'th degree. I never got to the point where the mere suggestion of living even a little bit whithin societys limits threw me into a rage or a funk so deep I mutilated myself (this was what really shocked me, she has 12-14 4" long scars on her left arm from self inflicted knife wounds that she wears like some goddam badge of honor). Intervention is out of the question, I would honestly fear for the lives of all involved, much less hope for any shot at actually changing her mind about what is happening or what the future might hold. I have seen some pretty hard cases in AA, yet my own daughter is the hardest case of all. I'm just afraid what her "bottom" might turn out to be. :sad2:

 

[yanktar]

Radman: I've given you a lot of $#!t over a lot of stuff, but not over this. I wish I could offer you sage advice more than what you've seen here. I can't. You already know more about what's do-able than I do.

You already know that enabling isn't helping--and lots of the folks here have given examples of that.

You know that "intervention" won't work--I assume that isn't the Ted Patrick "de-programming" which is actually illegal, but you know more about it than me.

You know she's got to WANT to fix it. And first she has to admit she's miserable and doesn't want to be miserable.

You know that she's an adult and has to make and has made her own choices, even if they are lousy.

You also know she's suicidal (the self-mutilation).

You know if she ever tries pulling it all together, she's going heap a hurtin' lot of guilt on YOU and her mother. It comes with the territory--you'll have to endure it.

You know that if you go too far trying to help her, you risk the safety and welfare of OTHER people you love just as much--like your immediate family.

I guess the best you can do is "leave a light on" so if she EVER connects the dots, she'll know she can rely on you to help her get her life together.

As much as you ache for her, do not let it destroy the life you've built for yourself and your family--they need a healthy safe life too, and deserve it.

RadMan, I doubt if I helped--I just want you to know I wish you all the best--my troubles seem about as important as a zit compared to yours.

YT

 

[radman]

Thanks Tar, nice summation. Actually, I'm very removed from it all-anyone contemplating divorce, realize that that can be part of the deal. God only knows what the situation might be had some shit poor decisions not been made years ago, not neccesarily on my part, but thats another story. I just have so little info to go on, being 1200 miles from them, and having had so little to do with their growth through the years, that my input is almost meaningless at this late dat. It really blows, it's like watching a movie where the lead is going downhill, you see it and know whats happening, but are powerless to do anything about it. I don't doubt there is a lot of blame there, but until she decides to cut loose, it's not surfacing. And I know she is gonna have to be the one to decide to change things, I just wish I knew a way to prompt the inevitable, even if it meant being the bad guy for a while, if I'm not already.

 

[NoCage]

Sorry to hear what you're going through Rad. The thing that hasn't been mentioned here, and I know a lot of people will scoff at this, but I've seen God turn people around that I just knew were hopeless. Even if it's not your thing, if someone gets a chance to head her in that direction, it's worth a shot. At the last Bread & Roses shelter meal... a couple got married... they were considered hopeless. They're totally off of everything and helping out the homeless now. I feel for you.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Rad,

Scary as this is, I have a similar situation where two kids are great, the youngest seems on the road to experiencing what your daughter has done and gone through. We are pulling out all stops and making a stand, but once she is 18, if she won't live by my rules she'll be out on her ass.

I'm the youngest of 5 kids. I was the only kid to stay away from drugs...I had learned enough about them by watching the older kids in the family. From my experience, the only time the older kids straightened out was when:

1) A significant other that was a good influence stepped in

2) The parents kicked them out and quit supporting them (enabling was taken away) so that they HAD to survive on their own

Seems like she spent her year in hell to come out emaciated and such...perhaps without enabling she'll get her stuff straight.

If I were you, the only thing I would give is:

1) Good advice

2) Love

3) A pledge to be there if she cleans up her act and say "My love is not conditional, only its distribution is."

And realize this:

No matter what you try, it may not work. Have hope, but know when you're wasting time.

 

[radman]

Well, judging from the responses here (and I thank all that have responded), it's confirmation that I am on the right track. I just wanted to sound out a larger group than I have access to otherwise, and one that is relatively mature, seasoned and understanding (thats the nicest thing I'll ever say about this bunch, don't hold your collective breath expecting more ) The biggest thing I learned in treatment, and in the years since, is that unless the individual involved desires a change in their life, everything else is moot. I cannot have any effect on the enablers in her life-thats their deal, and I have 0 influence on what they do, despite my best efforts. I hope it all turns out, and I thank you all for your words.

 

[rublenoon]

What SouthernFJR said! +1

Rad : Peace to you and yours.

 

[Windjammer]

Hey Rad,

I've seen AA members attend Al-Anon meetings to help themselves in situations like yours. I've also seen Al-Anon members go to open AA speaker meetings while searching for their own answers. Try contacting someone you trust in AA, who's "well connected", and ask them where you might find a "good" Al-Anon meeting. Sometimes listening to others with similar experiences can provide insights you never would have guessed you'd find.

I hope your daughter finds the motivation to seek help soon!

WJ