Hard start after 8 weeks

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The fuel pressure , that is taken into account in the basic injector delivery rate curve, is covered in the part of the speed density fuel calculation that calculates the actual pulse width needed to deliver the amount of fuel calculated. That is not part of the fuel map that needs calibrating...it is simply a hardware correlation the ECM needs to accomodate the injector sizing and (and fuel pressure) of the system.
Interesting. I was not aware that the pulse width calculation was seperate from the fuel map, I thought there were one and the same. I learned something new today.

So I assume then that the fuel pressure is just loaded in the firmware as some sort of offset that is used in the calculation for the map, right?

Good info, thanks!

 
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I had the same problem with my 04 when the battery was getting ready to give up the ghost (last March). The battery on these babies don't last very long...
+1

just so this doesn't get lost in the excellent fuel discussion. The first time I had a battery go bad in my v65 it started having all kinds of weird problems, running rough, electrical problems (seemed like there must be a short somewhere). Tested the coils, checked the plugs, etc. When I was told to change the battery I thought they were nuts, surely the battery couldn't be doing this once the bike was running. Wrong, new battery cleared up everything. IIRC I put a meter on the charging system before I swapped out the old battery, and it appeared to be charging OK.

Kind of weird for a car guy, must have something to do with the small capacity of motorcycle batteries?

 
I had the same problem with my 04 when the battery was getting ready to give up the ghost (last March). The battery on these babies don't last very long...
+1

just so this doesn't get lost in the excellent fuel discussion. The first time I had a battery go bad in my v65 it started having all kinds of weird problems, running rough, electrical problems (seemed like there must be a short somewhere). Tested the coils, checked the plugs, etc. When I was told to change the battery I thought they were nuts, surely the battery couldn't be doing this once the bike was running. Wrong, new battery cleared up everything. IIRC I put a meter on the charging system before I swapped out the old battery, and it appeared to be charging OK.

Kind of weird for a car guy, must have something to do with the small capacity of motorcycle batteries?
That's the point I was trying to make. The bike ran like crap, wouldn't keep running, and finally died on the side of the road at a pee stop. A new battery and I'm good as new :clapping:

 
Pythagoras could be called the first known string theorist. Pythagoras, an excellent lyre player, figured out the first known string physics -- the harmonic relationship. Pythagoras realized that vibrating Lyre strings of equal tensions but different lengths would produce harmonious notes (i.e. middle C and high C) if the ratio of the lengths of the two strings were a whole number.

Pythagoras discovered this by looking and listening. Today that information is more precisely encoded into mathematics, namely the wave equation for a string with a tension T and a mass per unit length m. If the string is described in coordinates as in the drawing below, where x is the distance along the string and y is the height of the string, as the string oscillates in time t,

then the equation of motion is the one-dimensional wave equation

where vw is the wave velocity along the string.

When solving the equations of motion, we need to know the "boundary conditions" of the string. Let's suppose that the string is fixed at each end and has an unstretched length L. The general solution to this equation can be written as a sum of "normal modes", here labeled by the integer n, such that

The condition for a normal mode is that the wavelength be some integral fraction of twice the string length, or

The frequency of the normal mode is then

The normal modes are what we hear as notes. Notice that the string wave velocity vw increases as the tension of the string is increased, and so the normal frequency of the string increases as well. This is why a guitar string makes a higher note when it is tightened.

But that's for a nonrelativistic string, one with a wave velocity much smaller than the speed of light. How do we write the equation for a relativistic string?

According to Einstein's theory, a relativistic equation has to use coordinates that have the proper Lorentz transformation properties. But then we have a problem, because a string oscillates in space and time, and as it oscillates, it sweeps out a two-dimensional surface in spacetime that we call a world sheet (compared with the world line of a particle).

In the nonrelativistic string, there was a clear difference between the space coordinate along the string, and the time coordinate. But in a relativistic string theory, we wind up having to consider the world sheet of the string as a two-dimensional spacetime of its own, where the division between space and time depends upon the observer.

The classical equation can be written as

where s and t are coordinates on the string world sheet representing space and time along the string, and the parameter c2 is the ratio of the string tension to the string mass per unit length.

These equations of motion can be derived from Euler-Lagrange equations from an action based on the string world sheet

The spacetime coordinates Xm of the string in this picture are also fields Xm in a two-dimension field theory defined on the surface that a string sweeps out as it travels in space. The partial derivatives are with respect to the coordinates s and t on the world sheet and hmn is the two-dimensional metric defined on the string world sheet.

The general solution to the relativistic string equations of motion looks very similar to the classical nonrelativistic case above. The transverse space coordinates can be expanded in normal modes as

The string solution above is unlike a guitar string in that it isn't tied down at either end and so travels freely through spacetime as it oscillates. The string above is an open string, with ends that are floppy.

For a closed string, the boundary conditions are periodic, and the resulting oscillating solution looks like two open string oscillations moving in the opposite direction around the string. These two types of closed string modes are called right-movers and left-movers, and this difference will be important later in the supersymmetric heterotic string theory.

This is classical string. When we add quantum mechanics by making the string momentum and position obey quantum commutation relations, the oscillator mode coefficients have the commutation relations

The quantized string oscillator modes wind up giving representations of the Poincaré group, through which quantum states of mass and spin are classified in a relativistic quantum field theory.

So this is where the elementary particle arise in string theory. Particles in a string theory are like the harmonic notes played on a string with a fixed tension

The parameter a' is called the string parameter and the square root of this number represents the approximate distance scale at which string effects should become observable.

In the generic quantum string theory, there are quantum states with negative norm, also known as ghosts. This happens because of the minus sign in the spacetime metric, which implies that

So there ends up being extra unphysical states in the string spectrum.

In 26 spacetime dimensions, these extra unphysical states wind up disappearing from the spectrum. Therefore. bosonic string quantum mechanics is only consistent if the dimension of spacetime is 26.

By looking at the quantum mechanics of the relativistic string normal modes, one can deduce that the quantum modes of the string look just like the particles we see in spacetime, with mass that depends on the spin according to the formula

Remember that boundary conditions are important for string behavior. Strings can be open, with ends that travel at the speed of light, or closed, with their ends joined in a ring.

One of the particle states of a closed string has zero mass and two units of spin, the same mass and spin as a graviton, the particle that is supposed to be the carrier of the gravitational force.

 
Pythagoras could be called the first known string theorist. Pythagoras, an excellent lyre player, figured out the first known string physics -- the harmonic relationship. Pythagoras realized that vibrating Lyre strings of equal tensions but different lengths would produce harmonious notes (i.e. middle C and high C) if the ratio of the lengths of the two strings were a whole number.Pythagoras discovered this by looking and listening. Today that information is more precisely encoded into mathematics, namely the wave equation for a string with a tension T and a mass per unit length m. If the string is described in coordinates as in the drawing below, where x is the distance along the string and y is the height of the string, as the string oscillates in time t,

then the equation of motion is the one-dimensional wave equation

where vw is the wave velocity along the string.

When solving the equations of motion, we need to know the "boundary conditions" of the string. Let's suppose that the string is fixed at each end and has an unstretched length L. The general solution to this equation can be written as a sum of "normal modes", here labeled by the integer n, such that

The condition for a normal mode is that the wavelength be some integral fraction of twice the string length, or

The frequency of the normal mode is then

The normal modes are what we hear as notes. Notice that the string wave velocity vw increases as the tension of the string is increased, and so the normal frequency of the string increases as well. This is why a guitar string makes a higher note when it is tightened.

But that's for a nonrelativistic string, one with a wave velocity much smaller than the speed of light. How do we write the equation for a relativistic string?

According to Einstein's theory, a relativistic equation has to use coordinates that have the proper Lorentz transformation properties. But then we have a problem, because a string oscillates in space and time, and as it oscillates, it sweeps out a two-dimensional surface in spacetime that we call a world sheet (compared with the world line of a particle).

In the nonrelativistic string, there was a clear difference between the space coordinate along the string, and the time coordinate. But in a relativistic string theory, we wind up having to consider the world sheet of the string as a two-dimensional spacetime of its own, where the division between space and time depends upon the observer.

The classical equation can be written as

where s and t are coordinates on the string world sheet representing space and time along the string, and the parameter c2 is the ratio of the string tension to the string mass per unit length.

These equations of motion can be derived from Euler-Lagrange equations from an action based on the string world sheet

The spacetime coordinates Xm of the string in this picture are also fields Xm in a two-dimension field theory defined on the surface that a string sweeps out as it travels in space. The partial derivatives are with respect to the coordinates s and t on the world sheet and hmn is the two-dimensional metric defined on the string world sheet.

The general solution to the relativistic string equations of motion looks very similar to the classical nonrelativistic case above. The transverse space coordinates can be expanded in normal modes as

The string solution above is unlike a guitar string in that it isn't tied down at either end and so travels freely through spacetime as it oscillates. The string above is an open string, with ends that are floppy.

For a closed string, the boundary conditions are periodic, and the resulting oscillating solution looks like two open string oscillations moving in the opposite direction around the string. These two types of closed string modes are called right-movers and left-movers, and this difference will be important later in the supersymmetric heterotic string theory.

This is classical string. When we add quantum mechanics by making the string momentum and position obey quantum commutation relations, the oscillator mode coefficients have the commutation relations

The quantized string oscillator modes wind up giving representations of the Poincaré group, through which quantum states of mass and spin are classified in a relativistic quantum field theory.

So this is where the elementary particle arise in string theory. Particles in a string theory are like the harmonic notes played on a string with a fixed tension

The parameter a' is called the string parameter and the square root of this number represents the approximate distance scale at which string effects should become observable.

In the generic quantum string theory, there are quantum states with negative norm, also known as ghosts. This happens because of the minus sign in the spacetime metric, which implies that

So there ends up being extra unphysical states in the string spectrum.

In 26 spacetime dimensions, these extra unphysical states wind up disappearing from the spectrum. Therefore. bosonic string quantum mechanics is only consistent if the dimension of spacetime is 26.

By looking at the quantum mechanics of the relativistic string normal modes, one can deduce that the quantum modes of the string look just like the particles we see in spacetime, with mass that depends on the spin according to the formula

Remember that boundary conditions are important for string behavior. Strings can be open, with ends that travel at the speed of light, or closed, with their ends joined in a ring.

One of the particle states of a closed string has zero mass and two units of spin, the same mass and spin as a graviton, the particle that is supposed to be the carrier of the gravitational force.
WOW!! <_<

 
One of the particle states of a closed string has zero mass and two units of spin, the same mass and spin as a graviton, the particle that is supposed to be the carrier of the gravitational force.
RadioHowie,

If you didn't copy this off a website somewhere, then you are DEFINITELY

smarter than I am, BUT...

What does it have to do with the thread title: "Hard Starter after Eight Weeks"

Just curious...

Rad, You have WAYYYY too much time on your hands. :bleh:

Jim

 
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One of the particle states of a closed string has zero mass and two units of spin, the same mass and spin as a graviton, the particle that is supposed to be the carrier of the gravitational force.
RadioHowie,

If you didn't copy this off a website somewhere, then you are DEFINITELY

smarter than I am, BUT...

What does it have to do with the thread title: "Hard Starter after Eight Weeks"

Just curious...
Bwahahahahaha...

Yeah, that came RIGHT off the top of my head...LOL/ROTFLMAO

Seriously, I had JUST finished watching a PBS episode of NOVA on string theory

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/

and then read Jestal's fuel injection dissertation, so I thought I'd throw in my own $.02 worth of tech-talk. :)

 
I left my 04 in the garage for eight weeks after my last trip. Went to start it up for a ride, and when it turned the key on, I heard a noise from either inside the tank or under it, that sounded like clunk. Hit the starter button and the motor turned over but it wouldn't start. Tried several times with no luck. Figured the battery might be low, so I put a charger on it. Still no luck. I opened the throttle a bit and got it to fire a little, it finally started and reved up, but died when I let off the throttle. Went through the same procedure again, and when it finally started with an open throttle, I let it rev a bit and then it would idle down. Took it on a trip, and no problems since.
Anyone have any theories?
No fuel in the lines. You won't have a problem again unless it sits for an extend period of time( it usually has to sit longer than two weeks to develop the problem). You probably had to motor (keep the starter engaged) for a much long time to get the engine to fire up, and then had to keep the trottle open some until normal fuel flow was established and the engine began to run normally.

Not a bad idea to use a battery tender if the bike sits for extended periods of time. Since your bike cranked sufficiently the battery propably wasn't an issue for this particular incident.

The battery is an issue with the "AE" model in that if the charge isn't sufficient, the engine may or may not start. It the engine starts and the battery is in a state of low charge the engine will run extremely rough until the battery achieves full charges. An additional thing to keep in mind with the "AE" is the fact that you loose the electronic clutch without sufficient electrical power, ie. dead battery. Making a practice of parking in neutral may be a beneficial habit.

 
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Radman, I disagree with the above statement in this case. I know there have been many discussions of "Bike can't start"...
However, jestal's write up was the first time in all those discussions that I felt like I could follow along and comprehend what was being stated. It also was comprehensive in nature and seemed to explain to me all what could be happening under various symptoms. I know you are far more technically inclined than I am, so maybe his writeup was boring or old news to you...however it was quite insightful to me so don't diss his words...

I don't know jestal at all but judged the words on the clarity of the words themselves, not who was writing them...

Therefore, ad nauseum or not, that was one damn good write up and should not be dismissed because you have felt some of your helpful technical advice were ignored in some other time or place...
Jeez, I'd forgotten all about this thread. Till now. Not to worry, Wheaties, my tech writing days are over. I shall just read and feed, and keep my cornfusing and flawed tech speeches to myself. ;)

 
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HA!

First post in the resurrected thread...

I'll give ya a hunnerd bucks fer the POS...

:)

edit.. I guess I resurrected it... prolly don't count... oh well... :rolleyes:

 
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Since this thread was brought up recently for the fifth time, how about looking at the other threads you've had problems? Maybe the hard start is symptomatic of one of the other issues...or at least related.

Could it be a Barbarian issue with the plug, a cam timing problem, a gas vacuum problem, or perhaps something else related to your various maintenance and farklings? Maybe setting things back to stock or having somebody else take a long hard look at it might help.

 
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My '06 does the same thing after sitting for a week or two. I ride the Wee Strom more in the summer and the FJR sits sometimes when it's really hot out. They both sit when I'm at sea as well.

 
Well, there been no new posts on this thread for years now but I would still like to ask a question since my 15 ES had the hard start after sitting for 3 weeks. I cranked and cranked (battery seemed nice and strong during the 20 or 30 seconds that I cranked intermittently) before it started up which it finally did but during that cranking, on an FI engine, I didn't know if I should leave the throttle closed or open it all the way up. It did seem like it finally started when I opened the throttle wide and just wanted to know if anybody had any comments about throttle position on a hard start after a long sitting idle. Thanks!

 
A normal start requires a closed throttle. But, if it won't start after a couple of seconds, wide open throttle. The airflow dries up the excess fuel that was probably left in there from a previous cold start and shut-off.

 
Thanks McAtrophy for the answer. Makes sense, as when I initially hit the starter after 3 weeks, the engine ALMOST fired up (little hint of firing) then nothing, and finally started after the extended cranking and I was opening the throttle later. I like the idea the hard start might be the fuel rail being drained after sitting, and that I should cycle the fuel pump (ignition on and off a few times) to fully charge the rail before trying to start (assuming this concept is valid for a 2015), so I'll keep that in mind if I'm in the UNFORTUNATE situation again where I can't ride for 3 weeks!

And Iggy, thanks for the re-direct to the other thread with more comprehensive discussion of this topic! Was illuminating. Also, if you could be so kind as to direct me to a forum help thread or tell me how to create a link to another thread in a post I might make? You know, like a Click Here link to another post or site. Can't figure out how to do that on this forum so far. Regards!

 
WoodyPecker posted: ..... if you could be so kind as tell me how to create a link to another thread in a post I might make?
In the text editor menu bar, there's an icon to insert a (hyper)link. Looks like this:

36498570593_5b6120533c.jpg


Highlight the text in your post that you want to represent the hyperlink, then click on the icon and insert the URL.

This Forum has separate URLs for each individual post. (Click on the post number for the URL.) For an example, click here. For contrast, click on this here linky thing for a different post in the same thread.

For further contrast, try this hyperlink to a photo of smokin' hot babes.

 
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