Killed my Engine

[gr8eyes]

Alan, do you think it would be prudent to change out the CCT and that toothed sprocket at some interval prior to too much wear?

 

[ionbeam]

Alan, do you think it would be prudent to change out the CCT and that toothed sprocket at some interval prior to too much wear?

It's too early to say anything definitive, still waiting on facts and evidence that leads to the root cause. Sit tight until speculation firms up into real information.

In this Forum I've seen a smattering of people that have changed their CCT at one of the valve checks for various vague reasons. I seem to be the only one that has reported this type of catastrophic failure, and sure as heck hope that my problem is unique.

I'm in the process of removing add-ons to simplify the process for the dealer. Man, I just discovered farkle creep, I never realized how much I've done to Feejer over the years. First I wanted to get my cruise control & vacuum plumbing out of the way when I remembered the PCIII, whose power wires go over the engine, which then leads me to two power distributions, which then reminded me of the additional wiring I added to the stator harness, upon which I spied the road pegs mounted to the engine, when I noticed the fairing mount for my Passport, I've got battery mounted wire distributions, might as well take off the Rick Mayer and put the stocker back on, and then I realize I may as well remove the TOGs, and...... :dribble:

 

[HaulinAshe]

I'm in the process of removing add-ons to simplify the process for the dealer. Man, I just discovered farkle creep, I never realized how much I've done to Feejer over the years.

Ion I feel your pain! When I traded the 05 for the 07 in January, I had four, count them FOUR, hours to defarkle that bike! You've never seen wrenches flying and pieces dropping to the floor like that.

We are all hoping for the best with your engine. Keep us posted.

Jeff Ashe

 

[huron52]

I was one of those who changed my CCT at the 87,000kms valve check. What my did was stick a couple of times. Man was it noisy. That alone got me to change it out.

Oh that and I had a XS11 that the manual cam chain adjuster that moved at a start up and parts came together enough that it would not turn over. I figured bent valve stems from hitting the pistons. Because of it's age I figured it wasn't worth putting the money into it.

That's how I bought the FJR ... that, and I was looking at them for a while.

I hope everything turns out OK

 

[NoSlowGuy]

I too have an 04, with a VERY noisy CCT. I ordered one last week (RonAyers) with some spark plugs and "O" rings , getting ready for the 2nd valve adj. Turns out the CCT is back ordered. Guess I will just ride the other bike until I get the CCT. Sorry for your troubles Allen =-(. But thanks for sharing the info, you may have saved me a lot of trouble, thanks!

 

[Nightshift]

Zero compression at all 4 cylinders pretty much sums it up. Does anyone know if the FJR engine is a zero clearance engine? I see that the pistons have valve reliefs in the dome, so I'm hoping that means there is some valve to piston clearance.
Starting around 20k miles I would occasionally hear a bit of rattling that was traced to the cam chain area. It was very light and would come and go without any regularity. The chain tensioner was tested and seemed to be OK. At 34k miles it was rattling a lot more often and with greater vigor. As I approach 40k miles my engine would often sound like a diesel with the chain clattering. As the chain clattered I could watch the tach wander in synch with the noise and I was getting vibrations that could be felt in the engine & chassis. I was hoping to get through the 10/13 fall foliage ride, then tear it apart and repair it at my leisure.

The rapid spiral to death started Saturday morning when I retracted the cam chain tensioner plunger then released it again. Upon release it seemed to make a strong and full release. I tapped the starter button, but was wholly unprepared for the mechanical racket that ensued. I was so stunned that I may have delayed releasing the button as quickly as I would have, if I had been expecting a problem. Poof, just as quick as that the engine was dun fer. Immediately after the mechanical cacophony the engine would spin like mad when the starter was pressed but there was no sign of firing. I had some hope because there were no bad mechanical noises when the engine spun. The garage gremlins had hidden my 10mm compression gauge fitting so I was left to do a bit of field troubleshooting. No codes, the cylinder identification sensor does not produce an error code or a reading on the diAG screen. The spark plugs looked good; using the diAG test function I could fire all 4 plugs with bright blue sparks. Putting it in 1st gear I could turn the rear wheel by hand (ignition off) but it took major effort so there was some initial hope that the compression was good. Using an audio tube I couldn't hear the cams moving in the bearings, which took away some hope. Then the garage gremlins finally coughed up the 10mm fitting and I did the compression test. If some of you as far away as the Mississippi River and the Gulf Coast heard a loud primal scream around noon today, it was me, after reading the compression gauge. My guess is that the cam chain has come off the crank sprocket.

I'm really time challenged right now so I might have to seek a dealer in the NH area for a resurrection. This will be the first time a dealer will touch my bike since some early warranty issues were resolved. I'm really pissed/bummed about this. I'm going to make one more quick pass at it tonight to see if I have missed anything else while troubleshooting.

Unfortunately, it looks like I'm going to have to cancel the 10/13 fall foliage ride. Details to follow tomorrow.

:angry: uke: :angry: uke: :angry: uke: :angry: uke:

You should drain the oil and while doing so filter it through cheesecloth and see if you collect metal filings. If you do see filings I'm afraid the CCT is the least of your problems. I f it comes clean there might still be hope. But next time I change oil in mine I will check it for filings as a precautionary measure. Mine is running fine and has 19000 mi. Keep posting as you find things out.

 

[ionbeam]

Well, the first rounds of diagnostics are done, it ain’t real pretty and I’m not out of the woods yet.

The cam chain did not break, the cam chain tensioner ‘failed’ allowing the cam chain to skip two teeth on the crank shaft gear (which drives the cam chain) causing the crank position to become mechanically out of time with the cams. This allowed all eight intake valves to become intimate with the pistons, resulting in eight bent intake valves stuck open in the cylinder head. There was great concern that the crank gear was damaged too because it isn’t replaceable, but it appears to have survived.

Today’s mission is to find out if the cylinder head and/or cams are trash and see if the pistons or cylinder walls are damaged. If the pistons are damaged they will have to check the entire lower reciprocating system for damage.

The dealer has agreed to let me examine all parts, take pixs and document this process so details will follow.

• Cam chain tensioner – ‘failed’, I don’t yet know what this means but it definitely is the root cause, and pushed the first domino over. I hope to examine the parts later this week when diagnostics are complete and see if we can figure out what went wrong and why. Replace.
  
• Cam chain – ‘very worn’, again, I don’t yet know what that means. Replace.
  
• Crank Shaft Gear – Apparently a survivor, final inspection and measurements today. The cam chain skipped two teeth on this gear causing the mechanical engine timing between the crank shaft and the cams to be in error. The crank gear is press fit on the crank shaft by Yamaha and can’t be replaced separately. If the gear were bent it would necessitate complete crank shaft replacement which the dealer says would essentially mean the entire engine is not worth repairing.
  
• Cylinder head – Today’s project, looks like pending bad news here. The mechanic says that the BUCKETS were driven into the cylinder head almost .250” ouch, ouch, ouch. First order of business is to inspect the cylinder head for splits resulting from the buckets being hammered in. If it passes this inspection, then they will measure the valve guides on the intake side. If only the guides need replacing I might as well have the exhaust side done with the new tick fix even though I don’t think I have a ticker. I’m going to have the dealer inspect the head pipes for oil, just in case. Heck, he is already there so looking is ‘free’. The dealer says that Yamaha has supplied him the tools needed to do the cylinder head guide repair himself. He also says that all dealers could be so equipped if they wanted to eliminate the need for a machine shop. Pending today's inspection.
  
• Rotating Assembly – Today the pistons and cylinder walls will be inspected too. There is some glimmer of hope here. If the pistons and cylinder walls look good, we are done with this. If there is damage then the bottom of the engine comes off and another round of diagnostics begins. This will most likely be the deciding point between repair/replace for the engine. Pending today's inspection

If the worst of everything comes to pass, it becomes significant that Yamaha does not sell complete engines, only parts. I’m shopping for a good Gen I engine, preferably with a known history, just in case. I’ve already contacted several people with engines for sale, including the ’03 on Ebay.
So far I’m very displeased with what has been found, but remain pleased with the service and skills of the dealership & mechanic.

Stay tuned for the next chapter of "As the Cam Turns".

 

[Fred W]

Alan,

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you (as I'm sure everyone else here is). Good luck in the next phase of diagnosis.

I guess it makes sense that the CCT was the root cause since that was the last thing you were messing with before the catstrophy. I suppose this will serve as a lesson for the rest of us. If we start hearing valve train noises, time to pony up for a new tensioner.

 

[garauld]

Ion - sorry to hear of your troubles... Anyway, I have to ask what is the going price for a CCT and gaskets?

 

[radman]

Ion - sorry to hear of your troubles... Anyway, I have to ask what is the going price for a CCT and gaskets?

CCT, 'bout $75

Gskt " $1

Rest of the shit, priceless.

 

[Fred W]

Ion - sorry to hear of your troubles... Anyway, I have to ask what is the going price for a CCT and gaskets?

Ron Ayers has the CCT for $61.16 and another .90 for the gasket.

 

[v65]

Ion - sorry to hear of your troubles... Anyway, I have to ask what is the going price for a CCT and gaskets?

Ron Ayers has the CCT for $61.16 and another .90 for the gasket.

Pass the salt, I don't think he feels bad enough.

 

[ionbeam]

The following prices are average, it is possible to find all of them lower, this just provides scale for what is involved.

Cylinder head $1,035

CCT $78

CCT Gasket $1.00

Cam Chain $15 (backordered in many places)

Chain Slipper #1 $41

Chain Slipper #2 $31

Intake Valve $13/ea

Exhaust Valve $25/ea

Valve spring, clip, bucket, seat, shim, etc. ~$13/ea/set

Lifter $14 ea.

Guide $25/ea

Cylinder head gasket, $36

Head cover gasket, $17

Piston $78/ea

Ring set $21/ea

Complete rod, pin, clip, bearings, etc. ~$145/ea/set

CCT preventative maintenance for parts is <$80. Access to the CCT just blows chunks.

In terms of total cost, engine parts are just a drop in the bucket. It is costing me roughly $500 a day just for labor. I’m figuring on no less than 5 days of labor :mega_shok:

Edit: I see while I was typing the bargain shoppers were searching, thanks! There is still a chance that Yamaha may pick up some of all of the part costs. This is where the dealer has volunteered to step up.

 

[Zorlac]

"Yamaha does not sell complete engines, only parts."

Is that a common practice for Japanese motorcycle manufacturers?

With all the labor involved, I'd take the engine swap route myself, assuming you can find a viable candidate.

Good luck, at least riding season in NH is drawing to a close.

Did you ask about their long term loaner program? B)

 

[Fred W]

Ion - sorry to hear of your troubles... Anyway, I have to ask what is the going price for a CCT and gaskets?

Ron Ayers has the CCT for $61.16 and another .90 for the gasket.

Pass the salt, I don't think he feels bad enough.

Making Alan feel bad was obviously not the intent. The idea was that the rest of us (or at least those with higher mileage and noisy valve trains) should be thinking about preventive replacement of the CCT.

CCT preventative maintenance for parts is <$80. Access to the CCT just blows chunks.

Yeah, I was wondering how tough that would be. The parts diagrams don't show how far buried the tensioner is in the engine. I'll have to look at the FSM later on.

 

[ionbeam]

"Yamaha does not sell complete engines, only parts."
Is that a common practice for Japanese motorcycle manufacturers?

With all the labor involved, I'd take the engine swap route myself, assuming you can find a viable candidate.

Good luck, at least riding season in NH is drawing to a close.

Did you ask about their long term loaner program? B)

I don’t know if other motorcycle brands offer complete engines or not. I would imagine that motorcycle brands that offer some of the hooligan bikes as well as the killer bikes like the ‘Busa almost have to offer whole engines (just a guess, though).

I’m discovering that purchasing a used engine isn’t quite as simple as it would seem. There are issues of not knowing maintenance, if it is from a wreck has it run since the wreck, how long has it been sitting, if it is a Gen I – has it been tick fixed or is it a ticker, etc. By the time a decent engine is found and shipped the costs are pretty substantial. By going with my own core (within reason) I know all these answers. But, I am hedging my bets and shopping.

I normally ride until salt and sand make it impossible. Some years this happens in November, some, like last year was mid January. This is cutting into my most favorite time of year for riding, worse yet you should hear my wife bitch about loosing her fall riding.

I wish a loaner was a prospect!

 

[ionbeam]

CCT preventative maintenance for parts is <$80. Access to the CCT just blows chunks.

Yeah, I was wondering how tough that would be. The parts diagrams don't show how far buried the tensioner is in the engine. I'll have to look at the FSM later on.

The problem with the CCT is clearance between the CCT and the frame, they had to put a cut-out in the frame for access. Yamaha seems to always put at least one screw in an inaccessible place.

 

[Randy]

I’m shopping for a good Gen I engine, preferably with a known history, just in case. I’ve already contacted several people with engines for sale, including the ’03 on Ebay.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...c=27485&hl=

You could probably part it out and get a good chunk of your money back.

 

[Zorlac]

That sucker might be in Europe.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Ion,

Man I feel for you. It looks like a new head is in order. That is what they did for me in lieu of rebuilding everything. I hope this and a CCT will be the charm for you.

Good luck with you fix....mine has been in the shop for a month waiting for parts to come in from Japan...this is not fun and I am learning to be patient, like it or not.