Bike down, totaled slider, frame damaged, 15 mph

[jayshaw91]

This is the second 06 I have heard about getting dumped in a corner in the past few weeks, and I gotta wonder if the sensitive throttle and herky/jerky control issues didn't play a role in this accident. It is really easy to snatch the bike and upset the suspension in mid turn due to the new throttle pulley.

I hate to agree with Fred on this one, but I'd have to say +1. After tinkering around at low rpm i think it's just to easy to slide out with a normal flick of the wrist.

Welp, I'll dissent to this - I think. Depends on all the facts, which I do not have.

My thoughts? We're talking a relatively low speed turn. One thing I learned mountain biking that has transferred to moto riding is this: In low speed turns or in loose stuff, coasting is dangerous. When on the MTB, I'm always pedaling so I have some forward momentum and the tire won't just slide, it'll keep trying to move forward, which gives better traction. Same on the moto. Ride the clutch or at least be on the throttle. A moto turn shouldn't be done with the clutch pulled in.

So my thoughts on this? Twitchy throttle or not, riding the clutch through this turn MAY have helped. I have no idea since I was not there and not riding. Maybe that's what he did, I don't know. All I know is for me, this is how I ride. I'm riding the clutch in the parking lot, low speed turns, and when in stop and go traffic.

If you want professional backup, go ask a police moto rider how they handle low speeds. Ride the clutch, folks. Ride the clutch.

Just my coupla shiny pennies.

 

[tripletango]

I looked at my 05 and the motovation sliders are in a very different place than the 06 sliders. I have motovations on the 06 as well. Plus I have a set of Skyways beauties to install.

Sure is tempting to put the sliders on the very end of the frame where the engine mounts. Don't think that was the idea but a perfect place.

Looks like any installation will yield similar results. Stick a long lever like bolt into that small frame end and you gonna break it if you crash. Delrin - Aluminum dont care you gonna break it.

 

[HIGHLANDER]

But if you have say a half inch bolt, and you can thread it in a half an inch and torque it to the thread's maximum torque, that's as good as having it threaded in an inch. The threads only hold so much. So even if that bolt was threaded in further the force applied to it would have stripped out even more of your block.

I am not sure if even a Delrin slider would help here. Obviously it would be able to absorb some force, but I don't know if it would be enough.

Truth is, that when your bike slides down the road, something is gonna get broken on it. I guess you have to decide if you want to protect the plastic at the expense of possible frame damage.

A question. Is the idea that the Delrin would slide better on asphalt than would the aluminum? 600 lbs of bike sliding at 15 mph or so puts a lot of force on what turns out to be a decent size lever hanging on literally by a few threads.

A few of us have been saying the aluminum ones were not a good idea for quite some time. Some manufacturers will not sell aluminum sliders!!!

Here's a pic of a Derlin sider that took a much bigger hit than 15mph. It a R & G installation, which mounts lower on the bike, not a Moko/Moto/Skyway installation.

Glad your OK Camera56 !!!

 

[BobbyBlue]

Welp, I guess that kinda helps understand the plastic vs. aluminium...the plastic can give a little...or maybe a little more anyways, also the choice of mounting location is gonna count alot. Thanks fer sharing Cam, and its definately a better world with you in it ! Best of luck !

Bobby

 

[smitty141]

IMO sliders are mosty Bling. If you fall or tip over your going to tear shit up. Hell you just dropped a 600 lbs. scooter. Stuff is going to get broke. Call the insurance co. and tell them to buy you a new one. If you didn't have slider (skyways or others) you still have a crashed scooter.... I wouldn't blame a slider, it didn't crash your bike... Smitty

 

[Fred H.]

A few of us have been saying the aluminum ones were not a good idea for quite some time. Some manufacturers will not sell aluminum sliders!!!

Yea, I voiced the same concerns on another thread, and I don't think I would put alumiunum sliders on my bike. My other concern is the shock force that aluminum puts on the frame from a simple 0mph tip over. It will transmit the total shock into the frame and welds, and can't be good for it.

If I were going to put sliders on my bike they definetly would not be made out of any kind of metal.

 

[Rickster]

I'll voice in here as well... I would and did put AL sliders (skyway) on, and did spend a considerable amount of time weighing the pros/cons/risks.

My thoughts --

0 MPH Tip-over (probably left side) -- not really good. The slider (any type) will be almost in complete compression (maybe 15-20 degrees off) so most of the load will be directly translated into the frame. The frame strength is unknown, but can be estimated if i took the time.

What I weighed: Trust the frame, and protect the left side case cover.

Slow low-side (either side) -- Since the bike is moving forward, and low-siding -- the bike should 'ride' on the slider. If on concrete -- may grab cracks. If on hot asphalt -- may dig in.

What I weighted: may provide some leg protection -- protect the rider -- don't worry about the bike.

Fast -- all bets off.

--------------

Numerous posts with sliders saving $$$ on repairs, few on sliders extending or adding cost.

In this case -- if insurance pays -- replace the frame, or get a new one. If you're on a budget with no insurance, you should still remove the frame, and inspect the rest of the frame -- i.e. the other side. If that flange is the ONLY damage to the frame -- it MIGHT be ok (note that engine mount load appears to be in pitch (not much clamping force). I'd personally replace the frame, or get a new bike.

$.02

 

[Thumperbike]

I finally have to agree with Fred about the throttle crank as I have 'snatched' the rear around corners a couple of times; probably about a half tire revolution, but it came out of it both times on its own. As for the frame in your picture, it doesn't look like dick for damage to me and I would put that slider right back on with a longer bolt.

Glad you had the gear and got no owies!

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

A good welder can "fill" in that area -- it does not need a lot of strenght as the main part that holds has the strength. No one with any liability will tell you this because of the risk. The slider broke that piece out when it bent.
I am glad the motor has deep threads for the mount bolt -- measure the hole and get the longest one that will torque up, that you can.

oster_stupid: I've fixed worse than that before. Had to fab/replace a whole motor mount on a YZF 750 that got damaged in a crash. That's a piece of cake! Can even do it with the engine in place. Just find a good welder willing to take the time. Of course you could just leave it also! Damage is done. Won't affect the rest of the frame. Just put on a Delrin slider and a longer bolt and forget about it.

 

[Blueliner]

When you put a steel bolt in a piece of aluminum, won't you always have an issue with the bolt being stronger than the aluminum it is imbedded in? The slider should be the weak link when the force becomes great enough to twist of bend the frame. Something had to give and the steel threads weren't as weak as the aluminum frame.

Just a thought, I don't know enough metallurgy to know if that is fact or not.

 

[mdisher]

OK, I knew I wasn't making this up... (once upon a time I was going to be a machinist)

For more than you ever wanted to know about bolts n-stuff look here: Bolt Science

The reason most nuts are no thicker than the thickness of the the bolt itself is because it just doesn't matter. If the bolt and nut materials are the same.

Once you reach the shear point of the threads, you are there.

However, in this case, isn't the engine case/block aluminum, so maybe you do need some more?

https://www.boltscience.com/pages/shortbolting.htm

 

[tripletango]

IMO sliders are mosty Bling. If you fall are tip over your going to tear shit up. Hell you just dropped a 600 lbs. scooter. Stuff is going to get broke. Call the insurance co. and tell them to buy you a new one. If you didn't have slider (skyways or others) you still have a crashed scooter.... I wouldn't blame a slider, it didn't crash your bike... Smitty

Nice dog mate. Too roight about a crash. You screw up it is expensive!!!!!!!! There ain't nuthin that will prevent the spending of mega bucks!

Put the bugger on it's side you are lucky -- heck it is only 30 to 50% the replacement cost. Hi side the effer and be dam glad you got ins and you are here to collect!

But if you have say a half inch bolt, and you can thread it in a half an inch and torque it to the thread's maximum torque, that's as good as having it threaded in an inch. The threads only hold so much. So even if that bolt was threaded in further the force applied to it would have stripped out even more of your block.

I am not sure if even a Delrin slider would help here. Obviously it would be able to absorb some force, but I don't know if it would be enough.

Truth is, that when your bike slides down the road, something is gonna get broken on it. I guess you have to decide if you want to protect the plastic at the expense of possible frame damage.

A question. Is the idea that the Delrin would slide better on asphalt than would the aluminum? 600 lbs of bike sliding at 15 mph or so puts a lot of force on what turns out to be a decent size lever hanging on literally by a few threads.

A few of us have been saying the aluminum ones were not a good idea for quite some time. Some manufacturers will not sell aluminum sliders!!!

Here's a pic of a Derlin sider that took a much bigger hit than 15mph. It a R & G installation, which mounts lower on the bike, not a Moko/Moto/Skyway installation.

Glad your OK Camera56 !!!

Big difference on position between 05 and 06. Believe problem is 06 related. Looks like that beauty did it's job. Come on be a sport show us the rest of the bike!!

 

[Ari Rankum]

Sorry to hear about all the damage to your ride. That really sucks. Thanks for the words of warning, though. I hope I'm more cautious on the '06 as a result of reading your post. Treat yourself to some sort of improvement to the bike as you put it back together; you'll feel better.

 

[HIGHLANDER]

Big difference on position between 05 and 06. Believe problem is 06 related. Looks like that beauty did it's job. Come on be a sport show us the rest of the bike!!

Here it is now !! ( Rogdeb's famous Red Sylvie ! )

 

[EXPDSGT]

If you "Flick Your Wrist" in any part of a 15 MPH tight turn you probably are going to have a problem with this bike. Add the dreaded "white (slick) paint = disaster.

 

[camera56]

Ok fellas, it's time to vote

Here's the situation

Left side mirror mount bent

Engine cover scraped up

Handle bar bent

Exhaust holed

Choice 1

Do nothing

Short term cost: nothing

Long term cost: bike is unsellable

Choice 2

Have the frame welded

Do nothing about the rest.

Short term cost: probably less than $500

Long term cost: bike is unsellable

Choice 3

Self repair the simple stuff

Get the frame welded

Short term cost: probably less than $1800

Long term cost: bike is sellable but probably worth 20% less. So another $2000 or so

Choice 4:

New frame

Everything done

Short term cost: $6,000 or so

Long term cost: bike is sellable for market price

Choice 5

Insurance company pays

Short term cost: $500 deductible

Long term cost: Most likely big step up in premium on car. Need to reserach but probably $3,000 over the next three years / life of bike. bike is sellable

Hmmm, choice 5 looks like the winner

 

[crewof1]

Sorry to hear about your mishap, I'm glad you weren't injured.

I crashed my FJR with moko's twice at low speeds like you described, once with a delrin slider and once with an aluminum one. The crashes were different: the one with the delrin slider was a low-side at about 15-20 mph; the one with the aluminum slider was more of a fall-over after an impact that crossed up the bars at 5 mph or less, then smacked the pavement very hard on its side. The delrin was just ground down, doing nothing to the bracket, where the aluminum one apparently had more direct impact and snapped the bracket, bending upward at about a 45 degree angle. I don't think you can draw any firm conclusions based on the differences, but there's my experiences.

After the second accident, the frame had a broken tab on the right side that held the peg, brake lever and rear brake master cylinder on(1 of 2 bolts). The bike still rode great, I rode over 20 miles to one dealer and couldn't tell anything was wrong, smooth, tracked right, no problems. I felt that welding that tab would work just fine, but I couldn't find anyone that would touch it; 2 Yamaha dealers said "frame replacement." I felt that a dealer mechanic that I didn't know moving EVERYTHING to a new frame might be more risky than welding, so I pushed for a total, and that's what I got.

Anyway, it's just stuff. Replace it if you need to, weld it if you're confident about the rest of the frame. I didn't replace (yet) because my financial priorities changed, and getting the money back out of my bike was almost a blessing. I am looking at the next PDP or model year, though - maybe I can work something out.

Best wishes.

 

[camera56]

Sorry to hear about all the damage to your ride. That really sucks. Thanks for the words of warning, though. I hope I'm more cautious on the '06 as a result of reading your post. Treat yourself to some sort of improvement to the bike as you put it back together; you'll feel better.

Thanks. The good news is a new set of holeshots is cheaper than a replacement muffler on the left side.

 

[Fencer]

I just got Skyways and haven't put them on yet. Now I don't know whether to put them on or not.
That bolt goes into the motor case. So the (some of) the threads were pulled out of the motor also. The reason the stock bolt torqued up is because it was longer than Skyways and it went into the motor farther to the threads that the other bolt did not reach. But some of the threads are missing and the only true fix is to replace that case or Heli-coil it.

I an not going to install my sliders til I get more info.

Put them on. They have already saved my fairing once! I think the name "slider" is more of a misnomer than anything. As was said before they are more of a tip-over guard. "Slider" just sounds better than "dumbass drop bike guard"

If I low side a corner at speed I don't give a damn about what condition my bike or frame is in when it stops. I just hope the "slider" provides enough room as to not trap my leg between the ground and bike and drag me along.

Camera, how far did you slide to "hole" the pipes? Are they that thin walled? All this at 15 MPH?

 

[camera56]

Sorry to hear about your mishap, I'm glad you weren't injured.
I crashed my FJR with moko's twice at low speeds like you described, once with a delrin slider and once with an aluminum one. The crashes were different: the one with the delrin slider was a low-side at about 15-20 mph; the one with the aluminum slider was more of a fall-over after an impact that crossed up the bars at 5 mph or less, then smacked the pavement very hard on its side. The delrin was just ground down, doing nothing to the bracket, where the aluminum one apparently had more direct impact and snapped the bracket, bending upward at about a 45 degree angle. I don't think you can draw any firm conclusions based on the differences, but there's my experiences.

After the second accident, the frame had a broken tab on the right side that held the peg, brake lever and rear brake master cylinder on(1 of 2 bolts). The bike still rode great, I rode over 20 miles to one dealer and couldn't tell anything was wrong, smooth, tracked right, no problems. I felt that welding that tab would work just fine, but I couldn't find anyone that would touch it; 2 Yamaha dealers said "frame replacement." I felt that a dealer mechanic that I didn't know moving EVERYTHING to a new frame might be more risky than welding, so I pushed for a total, and that's what I got.

Anyway, it's just stuff. Replace it if you need to, weld it if you're confident about the rest of the frame. I didn't replace (yet) because my financial priorities changed, and getting the money back out of my bike was almost a blessing. I am looking at the next PDP or model year, though - maybe I can work something out.

Best wishes.

There's something about welding it that makes me dodgy. I hear you on the mechanic part though i have a high opinion of the guys at Seattle Yahama. They just put in the Hyperpro stuff for me and did a terrific job.