Interested in a gory, cant pass an accident without looking, kind of way.
Engine Didn't Grenade/Something Happened/And Final Report
- Thread starter Intech
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jeremyr62
Well-known member
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ReRose
Active member
Are the cylinders sleeved?
gregory
Great things are afoot
In the words of Bugnatr:
UFFDA!
UFFDA!
Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
jeremyr62
Well-known member
Pretty sure the liner (in the picture) isn't Nikasil. That's just a suspension of silicon carbide particles in a nickel electroplating solution so the resulting plating layer will be very thin. The liner that has broken off is probably some new fangled propriety liner. The fracture surface is consistent with a very hard metallic or ceramic material.
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mcatrophy
Privileged to ride a 2018 FJR1300AS
My understanding is that up to 2012, the engines had pressed-in, ceramic coated, steel liners. From 2013-onwards they were all-aluminium with a plated-on coating, supposedly to improve cooling. I think there has been a change in coating material since 2013, but I am not sure. Nikasil sounds familiar, but whether the "changed from" or the "changed to", dunno. Far too many birthdays.
So the picture does show a bit of the steel cylinder liner broken. Ouch.
One comment I have is that there's a lot of carbon build-up, which suggests the engine hasn't been happy for a while.
Obvious questions, is the piston still seized? Is there a broken piston-ring or other debris that could be a cause? I tried to see from the other pics if there was a broken spark plug, but couldn't make any detail out. Valves all look ok (apart from said carbon).
So the picture does show a bit of the steel cylinder liner broken. Ouch.
One comment I have is that there's a lot of carbon build-up, which suggests the engine hasn't been happy for a while.
Obvious questions, is the piston still seized? Is there a broken piston-ring or other debris that could be a cause? I tried to see from the other pics if there was a broken spark plug, but couldn't make any detail out. Valves all look ok (apart from said carbon).
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Intech
Mr. Camping Meet
OK, so the title of this thread was a little dramatic. Still don't know what the exact problem is, but here are all the symptoms and observations so far:
David was riding going about 40 MPH and felt a loss of power and immediately pulled the clutch in and coasted to a stop. The engine had quit. It wasn't making any abnormal noises either. Just quit. He attempted to restart it. He heard the solenoid click, but the engine would not turn over. He got it home and removed the valve cover and found no apparent problems. Cam chain still tight and no visible damage.
I arrived Friday evening. I removed the spark plugs and put a socket on the crank and the engine rotated freely, However a large amount of fuel shot out of the #2 cylinder. I then put it in 5th gear and rotated the engine and transmission with the rear wheel easily. Saturday we proceed with engine removal. The exhaust also had a large amount of fuel in it. After getting the engine out a preliminary visual inspection found no apparent valve damage or burn. There is a copper looking substance on the bottom of the intake ports. it came out freely when wiped with a finger. Late in the day I had the side covers off and most of the casing bolts loose. Not enough time to get any further as I needed to ride home yesterday. My brother will continue with splitting the case and we will be able to inspect the transmission.
My question is what would cause it to have that much fuel in the engine and exhaust? It appeared it was coming from only the #2 cylinder.
David was riding going about 40 MPH and felt a loss of power and immediately pulled the clutch in and coasted to a stop. The engine had quit. It wasn't making any abnormal noises either. Just quit. He attempted to restart it. He heard the solenoid click, but the engine would not turn over. He got it home and removed the valve cover and found no apparent problems. Cam chain still tight and no visible damage.
I arrived Friday evening. I removed the spark plugs and put a socket on the crank and the engine rotated freely, However a large amount of fuel shot out of the #2 cylinder. I then put it in 5th gear and rotated the engine and transmission with the rear wheel easily. Saturday we proceed with engine removal. The exhaust also had a large amount of fuel in it. After getting the engine out a preliminary visual inspection found no apparent valve damage or burn. There is a copper looking substance on the bottom of the intake ports. it came out freely when wiped with a finger. Late in the day I had the side covers off and most of the casing bolts loose. Not enough time to get any further as I needed to ride home yesterday. My brother will continue with splitting the case and we will be able to inspect the transmission.
My question is what would cause it to have that much fuel in the engine and exhaust? It appeared it was coming from only the #2 cylinder.
Be aware that the photos linked to by jeremy62 are of a completely different engine (in Ireland?), not Intech's brother's bike. FWIW - the cylinders were always said to have "Ceramic Composite Cylinder Coating". They could still be sleeved. By the looks of jeremy's photo it sure looks like they are.
Back to Intech's old '07:
The #2 Fuel injector must be stuck wide open. Thats the only way I can think of for that much fuel to get in there. Would explain the engine stalling out (all of the fuel rail pressure would dump into the one cylinder), and the subsequent appearance of being seized. If the cylinder was full of incompressible fuel, it would mimick seizure (called hydro lock) until the fuel is removed.
If the bottom end survived the hydro lock you may be able to just fix the fuel leak and put it back together.
Not sure where that info came from. I was under the impression that they didn't change anything significant in the base engine, just exhaust and intake stuff.
Back to Intech's old '07:
The #2 Fuel injector must be stuck wide open. Thats the only way I can think of for that much fuel to get in there. Would explain the engine stalling out (all of the fuel rail pressure would dump into the one cylinder), and the subsequent appearance of being seized. If the cylinder was full of incompressible fuel, it would mimick seizure (called hydro lock) until the fuel is removed.
If the bottom end survived the hydro lock you may be able to just fix the fuel leak and put it back together.
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Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
I am no expert and I only know what I have read. My understanding is that Yamaha uses Nikasil or some proprietary variation of it and it does form a ceramic coating on the cylinder walls.
Blatantly plagiarized from FJROwners:
From Wiki: Nikasil is short for Nickel Silicon Carbide. Silicon carbide is a very hard ceramic (much harder than steel) that can be dissolved in nickel. The nickel solution can then be electroplated onto the aluminium cylinder bore. The piston rings will then rub off the exposed nickel, leaving a very hard layer of silicon carbide to protect the aluminium piston from direct contact with the aluminium cylinder. With this setup, the engine tolerances can be much tighter for better performance. The cylinder must be re-plated after it is re-bored, but Nikasil is extremely durable, so the cylinder does not need to be reworked as often as an iron or chrome cylinder
I've found a Yamaha marketing reference for 2013 model year where the description changes from "Ceramic Composite Cylinder Coating" to "Plated". No further details can be found on either.
Intech
Mr. Camping Meet
He should have it apart this week and have a look at the bottom end. It was the #2 cylinder that was full.
jeremyr62
Well-known member
The photos I posted were from a 2003. It did constitute a bit of a thread hijack so I'll quit while I'm ahead.
mcatrophy
Privileged to ride a 2018 FJR1300AS
I missed that these pics weren't of the offending bike.
As to liners or not, I read about them in publicity blurb. I've found one reference on the interweb, in a post in a thread by one Kevin Ash, who was a very respected journalist, where in answer to similar doubters he writes "Okay, I've been chatting with Yamaha and have some answers to various questions. Regarding the plated bores, the difference with the new model is the cylinders are now all aluminium, the process is what they call direct plated sleeveless cylinders. The aluminium around the bore is first hardened, then the plating is applied. This is already done with the R6 and R1, but it's the first time for the FJR1300. All previous FJR models had plated bores (not just from 2005/6 onwards), but this was applied to steel sleeves within the aluminium block." This in October 2012, testing the 2013 FJR.
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Yeah, I found that reference. Right after his post bramfrank, who was also a participant here at one time, points out that Yamaha has said the ceramic plating has always been linerless. The photos linked to above sure look like a liner to me.
Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
I went over and read the thread posted above which is a conversation between Kevin Ash and Bramfrank. Classic Bramfrank.
Anyway, if I read through the marketing hype it appears that there are steel liners in the earlier FJR engines. That is new news to me.
Anyway, if I read through the marketing hype it appears that there are steel liners in the earlier FJR engines. That is new news to me.
russperry
Well-known member
Boy does this bring up bad memories! I had a DRZ400 that had all kinds of fueling issues in the carburetor. One day my wife comes in and says that the garage stinks of gas. Right away I know its the DRZ carb. So I go out and hit the starter - nothing at all. Try again - still nothing.
Harking back to stories about blowing water out of engines after river crossings, I figure that there's fuel in the cylinder and its locked up like Fred says, so if I pull out the spark plug and crank the starter I can clean her out. Sure enough when I pull the plug it reeks of gas down in the engine so everything looks to be playing out as expected. I thumb the starter once, and gas blows out of the engine and all over the bike, and some of it on the floor. I was smart enough to not be staring down the hole so I'm not blinded. But I decide to hit the starter once more time to make sure that its clear. But guess what I forgot in the whole process?
I forgot to disconnect the spark plug!!
On the 2nd crank, the spark plug lights up, and ignites the gas that sprayed the bike as well as the gas on the garage floor. Holy crap! I'm in a panic, but quickly find a towel and extinguish the flames on the bike, and on later inspection cannot find any real damage to any wires or tubing or anything. What's really lucky is that the gas had sprayed towards the fuel tank sitting on the floor and there were open flames around the plastic fuel tank! for a few seconds but it didn't spread. Seems like in the end I was really lucky (and stupid obviously) that it was only the gas that burned and nothing else was damaged.
Long story to a short finish - I think Fred's probably right. If it is fuel that's hydro-locked the engine you can clear it with a bit of cranking of the starter, but be smarter than me and disconnect the plugs before you light everything up....
FJRay
Well-known member
I'm glad to know I'm not the only dumb ass that's done that.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
1: If there is metal in the oil, there is no, "Emptying the fuel and restarting it." Something is wrong besides said fuel.
2: FJR cylinders were never steel lined. They have always had the ceramic composite. I'm under the impression that hasn't changed for the newer model years, as the engine is the same, but it's possible. Since I have an '07, there's little reason for me to be too concerned about how the new engines are built.
3: I was gonna say something mean, but nevermind.
4: Whatever is wrong with that bike has to be a fluke. FYB takes great care if his stuff and has his shit together. I guess we'll see...maybe!
2: FJR cylinders were never steel lined. They have always had the ceramic composite. I'm under the impression that hasn't changed for the newer model years, as the engine is the same, but it's possible. Since I have an '07, there's little reason for me to be too concerned about how the new engines are built.
3: I was gonna say something mean, but nevermind.
4: Whatever is wrong with that bike has to be a fluke. FYB takes great care if his stuff and has his shit together. I guess we'll see...maybe!
mcatrophy
Privileged to ride a 2018 FJR1300AS
HRZ, you know I hate arguing with you, however ...
I quote from the model matrix:
A reference to a 2007 with cylinder liner damage, with pictures clearly showing the liner, I reproduce one:
An Australian review that gives a brief model history, and I quote:
Like you, when all is well, it doesn't matter to me how it's made, but it might be relevant to the "grenaded" engine this thread is about.
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