It's NOT preload!

[Pterodactyl]

I just wish ole 5W30 would come back and stick-up for himself. His first post on this thread was controversial, but failing to engage in the discussion it caused says more about the nefarious nature of his motive for making them.

 

[HotRodZilla]

I just wish ole 5W30 would come back and stick-up for himself. His first post on this thread was controversial, but failing to engage in the discussion it caused says more about the nefarious nature of his motive for making them.

Which is a prime example of what I was talking about. I despise people that butch about a problem but don't have a solution. His post falls in the same class:

"You're wrong."

"Ok, how am I wrong?"

......crickets. Which means someone is full of shit, or is just looking to start shit. Fuckin' one post wonders. Anyone concerned that was Barry or Odot just stirring the shit, sock puppet style. I'm totally kidding, but it would be funny!

 

[5w30]

I just wish ole 5W30 would come back and stick-up for himself. His first post on this thread was controversial, but failing to engage in the discussion it caused says more about the nefarious nature of his motive for making them.

Oh here I am my friend. I had my new to me 2010 out today since we had a nice beautiful day in Portland. I actually made some adjustments to my preload before i set out, since I'm heavier than average.

Did you guys all know that you're actually supposed to run 5w30 in your bikes. Actually let me emphasize that. RUN 5w30 IN YOUR FJR. I don't care what the manual says, i dont care what anything says, just trust me. This is a fact.

 

[5w30]

That was antagonizing. My fault. I do understand the original heartburn felt by some. No one likes to see the new guy know it all whether it's facts being discussed in a technical area of a motorcycle forum or not.

What happened next.... please wake me up when it's my turn again..

 

[Redfish Hunter]

I just wish ole 5W30 would come back and stick-up for himself. His first post on this thread was controversial, but failing to engage in the discussion it caused says more about the nefarious nature of his motive for making them.

Oh here I am my friend. I had my new to me 2010 out today since we had a nice beautiful day in Portland. I actually made some adjustments to my preload before i set out, since I'm heavier than average.

Did you guys all know that you're actually supposed to run 5w30 in your bikes. Actually let me emphasize that. RUN 5w30 IN YOUR FJR. I don't care what the manual says, i dont care what anything says, just trust me. This is a fact.

You do what you want with YOUR FJR. Do not presume to tell me what to do with mine.

That was antagonizing. My fault. I do understand the original heartburn felt by some. No one likes to see the new guy know it all whether it's facts being discussed in a technical area of a motorcycle forum or not.
What happened next.... please wake me up when it's my turn again..

So far I have not seen that at all. Does not look to me like "the new guy" knows anything.

 

[5w30]

I know what preloading a spring is and the fact that you guys need to hear me say that is astonishing.

Has anyone ever set up the sag on a dirt bike before? What in tiny little sweet precious baby jesus' name is going on right now?

 

[Old Guy]

I know what preloading a spring is and the fact that you guys need to hear me say that is astonishing.
Has anyone ever set up the sag on a dirt bike before? What in tiny little sweet precious baby jesus' name is going on right now?

If you read posts above you you'll see that a lot of folks accept that it's preload. But you're first post here said it's "dangerous" to think otherwise. I thought that was .... uh ..... interesting

 

[Fred W]

Exactly.

While you (5W30) were correct that the adjustment mechanism on top of the fork is actually a spring preload adjustment, which I had explained back in October in post #20, where I also pointed out how some people might be mistaken due to the compression of the top-out springs, there is nothing "dangerous" about being incorrect about such a trivial point. Regardless of what you call it, all it does it alter the ride height of the front end.

It wasn't your correctness that was being questioned, it was (and so far still is) your delivery. You have come across as a troll looking for an internet conflict rather than someone wanting to discuss FJR motorcycles. I hope that I am wrong and that you will stick around and contribute some of your vast knowledge rather than just inciting arguments about semantics.

 

[5w30]

Well Fred if you let your eyes meander on up towards the top of the screen here you'll see a title that says

"It's NOT preload" when it should say "it IS preload" .. If you want to call that semantics fine. I call it dangerous. Dangerous for what is going to happen to you out on the road if your suspension tuning is off by a nano adjustment?? Uh no. Is that really honest to goodness what people thought i meant?.... Dangerous because it propagates misinformation in a technical forum which by presence of the word "technical" should be dedicated to truth seeking. yes.

Granted my first post was a little bit inflammatory but I couldn't believe my eyes as I was reading this thread. As if there was any debate whatsoever what those mysterious little nuts on the top of the fork that the manual refers to as preload are preload. The same ones that are non specific to any make or model and have been in use on motorcycles suspension design for ages. And still there is head scratching going on.. "I'm going to be inside my forks this week, I'll have to take a close look.." says one guy. Here wait, let me save you the trouble. Those nuts are......uhhh wait for it..... Preload..

Come to find out the guy is the resident suspension guru with "hundreds" of people using his settings???? WTF? And he doesn't understand preload???

I mean the ST1300 guys must be rolling around on the ground right now reading this crap. "hahaa the dummies over at fjr don't even know what preload is".. Ya, dangerous like that too. Not good for the reputation gents. Christ I thought buying this FJR would tap me into a slightly older more mature and knowledgable crowd for forum discussions. Silly was I.

 

[Old Guy]

Well, speaking only for myself, but to me, your first post (below) means the post is dangerous. If you read the thread you'd know that it had been discussed and generally agreed that it is preload. But never mind. Carry on.

This is a dangerous post. It is entirely wrong. No ifs ands or buts, this is just complete misinformation.
You have gone out of your way to say the exact opposite of what is true.

 

[rushes]

Did you guys all know that you're actually supposed to run 5w30 in your bikes. Actually let me emphasize that. RUN 5w30 IN YOUR FJR. I don't care what the manual says, i dont care what anything says, just trust me. This is a fact.

I like this one best and everyone has ignored it.

 

[5w30]

Did you guys all know that you're actually supposed to run 5w30 in your bikes. Actually let me emphasize that. RUN 5w30 IN YOUR FJR. I don't care what the manual says, i dont care what anything says, just trust me. This is a fact.

I like this one best and everyone has ignored it.

Ya I'm not sure what to say here. I'm pretty sure the other guy took me seriously too when he came back saying " don't presume to tell me what to blah blah". All I know is WOW. It was sarcasm. I can't believe I'm explaining this right now but It was a joke at the incorrect nature of this thread. It was an (apparently poor) attempt to bring light to how absurd it is to make such a sweeping bold statement when it is dead wrong.

 

[5w30]

Well, speaking only for myself, but to me, your first post (below) means the post is dangerous. If you read the thread you'd know that it had been discussed and generally agreed that it is preload. But never mind. Carry on.

This is a dangerous post. It is entirely wrong. No ifs ands or buts, this is just complete misinformation.
You have gone out of your way to say the exact opposite of what is true.

Dangerous that I would chime in without having read the entire thread you mean? No I could see that some of you get it while others do not but the bottom line is the post is still here. Not everyone reads everything. If someone saw the title, read the first reply or two and thought they knew what was up... they would have just been screwed by the FJR suspension guru.

 

[El Toro Joe]

Wow...now my head hurts...

 

[Fred W]

Only two ways to change the title of a thread: either the OP has to change it or one of the forum admins has to edit it. It looks like that hasn't happened (yet). Posts do not get deleted here because they are factually incorrect. They usually do not get deleted unless there is a serious breach of the forum rules, and even then sometimes they remain for posterity, right or wrong.

I have to ask: did you read my reply to the OP? The one that I linked to just above? Did that not explain why some people would feel the adjuster doesn't adjust preload (when you and I know that it actually does).

When adults have a disagreement over something, they verbalize their own position and then let other people decide what they think is correct. I don't see how that is dangerous, and I really don't give a rats ass what the people in some other forum think about it.

The OP is not a "suspension guru" just another FJR riding enthusiast. But he has helped many others to adjust their suspensions. You don't really need to be a "guru" to do that. Whether one calls it a "preload" or "ride height" adjustment doesn't matter a bit as to the final outcome. You will not "screw up your suspension" by calling it one or the other. Either way it does the same thing, which is to say: not a lot.

You made your point that the OP was wrong, but couldn't you have done so without being quite so inflammatory? What does it really matter? I think there are far more important things to worry about than what someone calls this adjustment.

I got that you were being facetious about using 5W30 oil, and to "just believe you". That irony was not lost on me. But what if someone now googles 5W30 FJR1300 and finds your post and doesn't read any of the rest of the thread? They may think that you were an oil guru, especially being that your forum name is what it is, and that you were serious about it. They may then try to use 5W30 oil in an FJR and have a real problem with their engine because of that. Shouldn't we go back and delete that message to eliminate any possible confusion? How is that for irony?

 

[ionbeam]

I seem to recall a couple of people (who are no longer with the Forum) that made a very similar entrance...

A discussion is a give and take of ideas to arrive at a better understanding. It's ok to have an opinion about something and offering facts or supporting evidence to bolster that opinion. Usually people in the discussion take poorly to having one of the participants prone to poking people in the eye.

Regardless of the terms used, it is a fact that Jeff has been very good at getting suspensions setup correctly on a whole lot of motorcycles.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

What is truly ironic is that our new "expert" Mr. 5W30 says that, "the ST1300 guys must be rolling around on the floor". One thing the ST1300 guys are definitely not doing is adjusting the pre-load on their front forks. There is no external adjustment on the ST1300 forks for pre-load. No adjustment for damping either.

So, what we had was a somewhat interesting technical discussion about the mechanical functions and internal workings of FJR front suspension. This was served with a side order of semantics and vocabulary terms. Since most of the players in the game had read everything and knew the history and reputation of the OP, it stayed civil and informative.

Now, we have drifted the thread into a lesson on FJR forum etiquette. What we have really learned is how NOT to behave on an internet forum.

If Mr. 5W30 turns out to be a useful addition to our forum, that would be excellent. Based on all of his posts so far, I do not see that happening.

 

[MCRIDER007]

I have to ask: did you read my reply to the OP? The one that I linked to just above? Did that not explain why some people would feel the adjuster doesn't adjust preload (when you and I know that it actually does).

I read your post #20 (several times) and think you make a very good case that the "adjuster" is there to fine tune the desired spacer length...which in turn changes ride height but in order for the adjuster to actually change preload it has to compress the main spring and whether that happens depends on the relative spring strength between the main spring and the top out spring.

Can you say the adjuster is a preload adjuster if the main spring is not compressed at all? That is what actually happens on a ZX-14 fork. If you screw the adjusters in 15mm the end result is that the also fork "grows" 15mm, all the spring compression is in the top out springs. Doing the same test on the C14 forks (which are externally identical) the end result is that the fork only "grows" 10mm, which would lead one to conclude that the main spring has compressed 5mm and the adjuster is a partial preload adjuster. Why the difference...the C14 has shorter and stronger top out springs. When the forks are installed on the bike and weight is applied, the results are the same, the ride height for both forks has increased by 15mm as a result of the adjustments.

I haven't tried to do any measurements on the FJR's forks so I don't know what the relative spring strength is between the top out springs and the main springs but I would guess that a 15mm adjuster change (on OEM springs) is going to compress the main spring by 5mm or less, making it a partial preload at best....and that number could change substantially up or down (maybe to zero) if the forks have aftermarket springs and spacers. When you change the preload on a shock (has to be a aftermarket since the OEM does not have preload adjustment in spite of what Yamaha calls it), the spring compresses the exact amount of the adjustment applied, however, that is not the case with the forks when top out springs are involved....and unless you do some careful measurements you do not know what preload, if any, you are actually getting, however you will always get the same amount of ride height change (adjusted for fork angle) that you applied with the adjusters...and that is why I prefer to call the adjusters ride height adjusters rather than preload adjusters.

Does what you call the adjusters make any difference in performance or safety? Absolutely not! Does the amount of actual preload applied by the adjusters make any difference in performance or safety? Same answer...the main springs are going to compress the same total distance once weight is applied whether preload is applied or not. Likewise, the adjusters change the ride height the same amount whether preload is applied of not.

 

[Fred W]

Yeah, we've had this discussion before.

Suppose that the FJR1300 did not have top out springs. If that were the case then these would qualify as preload adjusters in your definition because the main spring would be compressed at full length, right? How would it change how these adjusters affect the way the suspension rides? It would be completely identical to how it works now. Right up to the point where the suspension tops out, which it really never should anyways.

Besides, it takes some amount of force to compress those top out springs, so in actuality as the top out springs are compressing (and fork lengthening) the main spring is being compressed somewhat as it delivers the added force to the top out springs.

I really do not see what the difference is that the fork elongates because of a top out spring compressing or not. The effect of screwing in the adjuster is exactly the same as adding additional spacer distance above the spring: it raises the loaded suspension's ride height and that is all. That is all that spring preload ever does whether there is a hard top out or a spring buffered one.

 

[John d]

Preload on a spring to me means having the spring under a set compression force regardless of whether the forks are on or off the bike. When the fork cap is installed, you need to apply slight pressure on the cap to install it. As the cap is screwed all the way down, more pressure is applied to the spring, but the overall fork length stays the same off the bike. The spring is restricted from going into a free state by the stops built in to the fork, that is, the total fork extension is mechanically limited, it will only extend so far, so the initial preload is set by the spacer, between the washer over the spring and the underside of the fork cap (preload adjuster). Fine tuning of the preload is accomplished by turning the fork top preload adjusters.

So in my book, they are preload adjusters, not ride height adjusters. However the ride height is still affected because of the preload, but only marginally buy the external adjuster. It is harder to compress an already partially compressed spring. See, clear as mud eh? Ride height is best set by moving the forks or or down in the triple tree, not that I would do that.