True dat. I wasn't thinking of Jeff
K&N Air Filter long-term side effects
- Thread starter HaulinAshe
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HaulinAshe
Well-known member
There's a few recent replies with questions directed to me. I'll just answer and not bother quoting. I have bike work to do!
* Yes, I ALWAYS used the K&N Recharge System with their cleaner and oil.
* No, I rarely run the engine below 4,000 RPM.
[SIZE=12pt]I'd like to point this out...[/SIZE]
The intent of my original post was to stress two points:
1. My sticky throttle was actually caused by excess filter oil contaminating the throttle butterfly seats, not by the 95,000 miles of wear on the throttle cable as I originally thought.
2. Even someone with my years of experience with THOUSANDS of foam filter changes on motorcycles, can apparently make mistakes in getting the oil "just right" on the K&N system. I readily admit that I miss being able to squeeze the filter element to remove excess oil.
I did NOT see any signs of engine-damaging contamination in the air box. But I did see signs that something was being deposited along the areas of residual filter oil (downstream of the filter itself).
Please avoid drawing conclusions from my isolated incident. As Travis already said, I'm just sharin' info!
* Yes, I ALWAYS used the K&N Recharge System with their cleaner and oil.
* No, I rarely run the engine below 4,000 RPM.
[SIZE=12pt]I'd like to point this out...[/SIZE]
The intent of my original post was to stress two points:
1. My sticky throttle was actually caused by excess filter oil contaminating the throttle butterfly seats, not by the 95,000 miles of wear on the throttle cable as I originally thought.
2. Even someone with my years of experience with THOUSANDS of foam filter changes on motorcycles, can apparently make mistakes in getting the oil "just right" on the K&N system. I readily admit that I miss being able to squeeze the filter element to remove excess oil.
I did NOT see any signs of engine-damaging contamination in the air box. But I did see signs that something was being deposited along the areas of residual filter oil (downstream of the filter itself).
Please avoid drawing conclusions from my isolated incident. As Travis already said, I'm just sharin' info!
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Canadian FJR
Canadian FJR
Thanks for the reply. My one question is about the grease (not oil) on each end of the filter. Do you usually apply this also?
Canadian FJR
Canadian FJR
charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
'Struth...
Interestingly, a little research doesn't expose a filtering "standard" to a certain micron size for I.C. engines. Standards exist for flow/efficiency -- but, apparently?, leave the micron pore size of the filter media to the discretion of the engine/vehicle manufacturer.
Desired pore size can be obtained quite readily by designed/engineered pleated paper media.
And, it's true that filters do get to be better filters with use (in terms of what they filter) but may become more restricitve? In the FJR's case, the electronic fuel injection's sensors and computer will compensate for the differing pressures. Only performance (H.P., acceleration, top speed) may suffer -- probably, not fuel economy?
So, if you're regularly in the habit of taking advantage of the FJR's 150 MPH top speed -- you may want to make sure you have a, somewhat fresh, OEM pleated paper filter. If not, your old OEM filter is just continually doing a better job.
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HaulinAshe
Well-known member
Baz
Well-known member
I actually sell filters for very large OEM manufacture, and thought I should throw in my 2 cents.
I have seen very many instances where the K&N system has done a great deal of gumming up air ways, and even worse, damaging sensors on vehicles. K&N filters should in no way be considered an OEM replacement as their micron rating in most cases is much higher than the OEM filter they are trying to replace. Their theory is that they can trap the smaller micron particles with the oil coating. The only problem with this is what some of you have observed with oil contamination. Their is a reason why manufacturers of things motorized design filters the way they do, and I can tell you they don't design air filters with fine micron ratings to rob you of horse power. They design air filters with the sole purpose of protecting your engine.
If you use a K&N on your new vehicle and run into sensor issues, I can't think of a manufacturer who would cover the corrective fix under warranty if they spotted a K&N filter in your air cleaner housing.
As far as the OEM filter goes on the FJR.
It is very easy to spot when the filter is spent as you will see the paper filter media become distorted (Looking like an inflating balloon). Yes, compressed air does help extend a filters usable life, but other things will plug off the media. If you travel in areas with lots of pollen, ride in the rain a good deal, this can set up any contaminants in the media to turn into concrete which running compressed air through backwards will not really touch. (Thus it is important to look for that media distortion I mentioned).
I would have no issues using another manufacturers filter in the FJR, just make sure it is OEM rated. (Has the same micron rating and media as the manufacturers filter) I have not found one.
Do remember that filters are the ultimate defense on your engine, so saving a few bucks by trying to extend the life of a filter usually will end badly over time for you.
Incidentally, I just had to cough up 42 bucks for a Yamaha air filter today.
I have seen very many instances where the K&N system has done a great deal of gumming up air ways, and even worse, damaging sensors on vehicles. K&N filters should in no way be considered an OEM replacement as their micron rating in most cases is much higher than the OEM filter they are trying to replace. Their theory is that they can trap the smaller micron particles with the oil coating. The only problem with this is what some of you have observed with oil contamination. Their is a reason why manufacturers of things motorized design filters the way they do, and I can tell you they don't design air filters with fine micron ratings to rob you of horse power. They design air filters with the sole purpose of protecting your engine.
If you use a K&N on your new vehicle and run into sensor issues, I can't think of a manufacturer who would cover the corrective fix under warranty if they spotted a K&N filter in your air cleaner housing.
As far as the OEM filter goes on the FJR.
It is very easy to spot when the filter is spent as you will see the paper filter media become distorted (Looking like an inflating balloon). Yes, compressed air does help extend a filters usable life, but other things will plug off the media. If you travel in areas with lots of pollen, ride in the rain a good deal, this can set up any contaminants in the media to turn into concrete which running compressed air through backwards will not really touch. (Thus it is important to look for that media distortion I mentioned).
I would have no issues using another manufacturers filter in the FJR, just make sure it is OEM rated. (Has the same micron rating and media as the manufacturers filter) I have not found one.
Do remember that filters are the ultimate defense on your engine, so saving a few bucks by trying to extend the life of a filter usually will end badly over time for you.
Incidentally, I just had to cough up 42 bucks for a Yamaha air filter today.
Great post, and I was with right there agreeing with you all the way up to the above statement. Leaving an air filter in use on an engine longer than the specified mileage interval, even if it has become dirty, presents no risk of causing causing engine wear whatsoever. Perhaps counter-intuitively, a filter actually becomes increasingly more effective at trapping smaller sized particles with continued use as the media becomes partially occluded. The previously trapped particles effectively reduce the size of the particles that can pass through without becoming trapped at the expense of increased restriction to airflow..
A clogged air filter will reduce the engine's ability to breathe in air, which may cause a richer F:A ratio, especially on carburetted engines (modern FI systems sense manifold air pressure and can compensate as the air filter becomes clogged), but a ricjer mixture is a safer one for any IC engine. It may limit the engine's maximum power production at WOT due to the jntake restriction. But with a bike like an FJRs with power to spare, you'd be hard pressed to feel the difference without a good dyno to show it to you. You would just have to twist the right hand thingee a fraction of a degree more to produce the same satisfying level of power is all.
Being a cheap frugal Yankee, I did a search on the Yamaha OEM filter part number and found that Emgo makes a clone of the stock paper filter. I found a place to buy them online for $15.26 each at the time. You can find it by searching on the Emgo part number: "5JW-14451-00" (OEM part number without the final "-00") I see some are being sold on eBay for $20 ea right now.
Side by side with the old Yammi filter you cannot tell the difference, right down to the markings on the molded plastic ends. I bought a couple of them, which at my lax rate of filter changes should last me several years.
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Fred, I was right there agreeing with you all the way up to... I think what Baz meant when he said, "so saving a few bucks by trying to extend the life of a filter usually will end badly over time for you" was a reference to his earlier statement, " Yes, compressed air does help extend a filters usable life". If that is the case, I will agree with him.
And, just to be my usual annoying self, I have seen instances of dirty air filters causing premature engine wear. But, they were not on FJRs or even in any motorcycle at all. I have seen air filters in turbo diesels that collapsed and then dumped a good portion of their trapped dirt and even pieces of themselves when they could not support enough airflow. Of course, that is so far removed from any FJR discussion I should not have mentioned it at all.
And, just to be my usual annoying self, I have seen instances of dirty air filters causing premature engine wear. But, they were not on FJRs or even in any motorcycle at all. I have seen air filters in turbo diesels that collapsed and then dumped a good portion of their trapped dirt and even pieces of themselves when they could not support enough airflow. Of course, that is so far removed from any FJR discussion I should not have mentioned it at all.
If Baz was saying that then I misinterpreted and I agree with him through the end.
But... Gaaa!!! Keeping a filter in so long that it rots and then gets sucked into the intake sounds like it must have been in there for a very... long... time.
And it is a good idea to take a peek inside the ole' FJR filter every once in a while too, lookin' for those bastid meece that think it is such cozy a spot to hang out in and raise their little family, all the while shitting, pissing and eating your filter up. Any air filter is not real good at filtering rodent piss after being partially eaten.
But... Gaaa!!! Keeping a filter in so long that it rots and then gets sucked into the intake sounds like it must have been in there for a very... long... time.
And it is a good idea to take a peek inside the ole' FJR filter every once in a while too, lookin' for those bastid meece that think it is such cozy a spot to hang out in and raise their little family, all the while shitting, pissing and eating your filter up. Any air filter is not real good at filtering rodent piss after being partially eaten.
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Your mention of the rodents is timely. When Dad dropped his FJR off with me for the summer I found a Rat's Nest of insulation under the seat. This was close enough to the airbox intake that some of the material was sucked into the filter. At least the filter worked.
LAF
Well-known member
I have run a K&N air filter on every car or bike I have had in the last 10 years. Never an issue. You can mess up re oiling it but it becomes pretty easy too tell when enough is enough. Clean it, it dries white, spray it let it sit in the sun and check the inside and out for any white marks and install it.
As far as filtering the micron size is as small or smaller then the OEM. I cant tell you if it is going to blow any of my motors up as I don't have a crystal ball. However I can tell you a vendor I know uses one in his motor home and runs the West a lot. Including sand storms. Has 250,000 miles on his and no issues and he takes care of his motor home as it is his life blood getting to shows.
Again personal choice like oil and such. I see this debated so much and just think of it as an oil thread.
I will keep using K&N and if I blow a motor due to it I will post up.
As far as filtering the micron size is as small or smaller then the OEM. I cant tell you if it is going to blow any of my motors up as I don't have a crystal ball. However I can tell you a vendor I know uses one in his motor home and runs the West a lot. Including sand storms. Has 250,000 miles on his and no issues and he takes care of his motor home as it is his life blood getting to shows.
Again personal choice like oil and such. I see this debated so much and just think of it as an oil thread.
I will keep using K&N and if I blow a motor due to it I will post up.
I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other on this particular debate (because really that is what it is, and not just here on the FJR forum either)
But, just because someone has had the good luck to not encounter any problems while using K&N filters is not particularly good evidence that the item in question is harmless. In logical terms this is called "arguing from ignorance" and is one type of logical fallacy. Restating it, just because one doesn't know of (or has not experienced) an instance where an engine has been known to be damaged by using K&N filters doesn't mean that no engine damage has or will occur.
Looking at the K&N website would lead one to believe that they filter as well as (or even better than) plain paper filters. But they may be just a tad biased.
Here's a third party report of actual filter efficiency tests comparing an oiled K&N with several brands of paper filter in which the K&N comes up short. So (if you believe this data) this does suggest that the K&N doesn't filter dirt as well as paper filters, at least for the particular filter models used in the testing. Whether or not it was bad enough to cause accelerated engine wear is not really tested or established, although the clear inference (which is even stated in the article) is that any additional unfiltered dirt in the intake air is excessive.
Google the issue up further and you can read all kinds of stuff that has been written and published about the debate, lots of the opinions of both the experts and the laymen, and then make up your own mind.
For me, even though I'm a tight-wad, the hassle of cleaning and re-oiling any oiled media filter is enough for me to pay the extra cost of the paper filters occasionally.
YFMV
But, just because someone has had the good luck to not encounter any problems while using K&N filters is not particularly good evidence that the item in question is harmless. In logical terms this is called "arguing from ignorance" and is one type of logical fallacy. Restating it, just because one doesn't know of (or has not experienced) an instance where an engine has been known to be damaged by using K&N filters doesn't mean that no engine damage has or will occur.
Looking at the K&N website would lead one to believe that they filter as well as (or even better than) plain paper filters. But they may be just a tad biased.
Here's a third party report of actual filter efficiency tests comparing an oiled K&N with several brands of paper filter in which the K&N comes up short. So (if you believe this data) this does suggest that the K&N doesn't filter dirt as well as paper filters, at least for the particular filter models used in the testing. Whether or not it was bad enough to cause accelerated engine wear is not really tested or established, although the clear inference (which is even stated in the article) is that any additional unfiltered dirt in the intake air is excessive.
Google the issue up further and you can read all kinds of stuff that has been written and published about the debate, lots of the opinions of both the experts and the laymen, and then make up your own mind.
For me, even though I'm a tight-wad, the hassle of cleaning and re-oiling any oiled media filter is enough for me to pay the extra cost of the paper filters occasionally.
YFMV
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Couldn't agree more Fred. The cost saving is minimal, greater hassle, more grit in the air and gummed up intake items. Not worth it. Lastly, if more power is the goal for using a K&N, many independent tuners dyno runs (Ivan for one) show either no gain and even power loss in many bikes when using the K&N over stock.I do not have a strong opinion one way or the other on this particular debate (because really that is what it is, and not just here on the FJR forum either)
But, just because someone has had the good luck to not encounter any problems while using K&N filters is not particularly good evidence that the item in question is harmless. In logical terms this is called "arguing from ignorance" and is one type of logical fallacy. Restating it, just because one doesn't know of (or has not experienced) an instance where an engine has been known to be damaged by using K&N filters doesn't mean that no engine damage has or will occur.
Looking at the K&N website would lead one to believe that they filter as well as (or even better than) plain paper filters. But they may be just a tad biased.
Here's a third party report of actual filter efficiency tests comparing an oiled K&N with several brands of paper filter in which the K&N comes up short. So (if you believe this data) this does suggest that the K&N doesn't filter dirt as well as paper filters, at least for the particular filter models used in the testing. Whether or not it was bad enough to cause accelerated engine wear is not really tested or established, although the clear inference (which is even stated in the article) is that any additional unfiltered dirt in the intake air is excessive.
Google the issue up further and you can read all kinds of stuff that has been written and published about the debate, lots of the opinions of both the experts and the laymen, and then make up your own mind.
For me, even though I'm a tight-wad, the hassle of cleaning and re-oiling any oiled media filter is enough for me to pay the extra cost of the paper filters occasionally.
YFM
RossKean
Well-known member
The '07 I bought second hand (with 12,000 mi) three years ago came with a K&N. I used it for a year and a half and 35,000 miles doing a clean and re-oil twice per year. After doing some reading (here and elsewhere) I decided to replace it with an OEM. Never noticed any oily goo in the airbox downstream from the filter or any dust/dirt either. It has a lot to do with getting the right amount of oil on it. Decided I didn't want to mess with it anymore and didn't want to take any chance on engine wear in case filtration was less effective. No idea whether the K&N is as good or not but don't want to make my FJR a test case. Contrary to K&N claims, power and fuel mileage didn't take a dump when I changed back to OEM.
sliick2
Well-known member
Hey guys, with all the comments about the problems with the K&N that you guys have talked about-I just went down & pulled my K&N & put my OEM filter back in ,that I had run for 3,500 miles when I bought the bike new. I inspected the area's that where mentioned & all is good.I do not have any problems like
the other contributers here.I've had that K&N in for about 10,000 ,but I don't want to have any of those problems in the future. I don't really like throwing $60. out the window -but !
Thanks to those that have brought this subject to light ! Happy 4th to all- be safe . Sliick
the other contributers here.I've had that K&N in for about 10,000 ,but I don't want to have any of those problems in the future. I don't really like throwing $60. out the window -but !
Thanks to those that have brought this subject to light ! Happy 4th to all- be safe . Sliick
Don't throw it out. Sell it. A used K&N gets almost as much as a new one? And don't feel guilty about it. You didn't design the POS!
Nanahanman
Well-known member
You bring up a very good point! Faulty logic. In the absence of facts to show otherwise, you can't conclude there are no "problems".
The "problems" that people are having are not catastophic failure but rather subtle wear over an extended period.
Unless you do direct comparisons with different types of media and test oil and look at cylinder wall scoring, you can't possibly know that "there are no problems"
There is a reason that KN allows more air flow and I figure if Yamaha engineers were clever enough to design this great engine, they were cleaver enough to design the right paper air filter. (faulty logic..?)
RaYzerman19
Go Wings!
I prefer paper. Ron Ayers used to sell OEM's for $23-$26.... just looked, seems to be a price hike.... now going for $31. Free shipping on orders over $69 until July 7...........
RavFJR
Well-known member
I just want to say that I got to test the K&N filter's performance first hand this past Wednesday when I got caught in (what meterologists call) a Haboob (Google it if you don't know what it is...) Anyway, As I traversed through the miles of 'dust cloud', I noticed the 'roll on' performance of my FJR wasn't what I have been used to... I got home and the bike (and me) looked like I had just run the Baja 1000 behind the lead car. I broke open the air box only to find that my K&N filter looked like a mud pie, and behind it were streaks of dirt pointing their way to the throttle bodies. That night I started looking for perfomance data for the K&N filter online, and found a few sites that exibited the new ISO 5011 testing done on air filters - K&N was near the bottom of the list. Long story short, I'm pulling all of the K&N filters out of my vehicles, and then will be spending this upcoming weekend cleaning the FJR throttle bodies. I am now a paper convert...
So much for; "The dirtier it gets, the better it filters" claim. Although a paper filter would have been plugged up as well by the sound of it, the intake track would have remained clean.
I bought my '08 used w/14k on it. The previous owner had a K&N in it for what would seem most of those miles by the crud on it. He lived/rode in an area with reddish dirt/dust and what was disconcerting was that gritty, fine reddish dust down stream in the air box. Out came the K&N and in went the OEM. Took out the OEM to blow it out @ 24k. Gave the downstream air box wall the "white glove" test and it was very clean.
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