El Toro Joe
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Long Distance Riding - Dealing With Fatigue
- Thread starter Twigg
- Start date
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Twigg
Just an old, bald man!
You can start by being aware that tiredness is a thing, and that it will happen sooner or later on a long ride. Pay attention not just to the road, but to how you are feeling and how you are riding.Or, in other words, you don't know what you don't know until you know it, so how do you know it?
Did that car overtaking come as a surprise? Did you slow down without realizing? Did you just forget to use your indicators? Are you actually feeling awake or sleepy.
The signs that you need a break can be very small if you catch them early, but you develop "tells" that your own performance is falling below the standards you expect. The thing is, they tend to be the same for you, and if you start looking for them you learn to recognize them early.
Also, avoiding things that you know make you sleepy (big meals, etc), and those caffeine shots .... they are potential killers. Maybe they could be useful ONCE, to help you get the last few miles to an extended stop, but the crash your body will experience when it wears off could be significant. I don't use them, but those who do suggest that one shot just before a power-nap works best.
I'm old-fashioned. If I thought I needed any kind of artificial stimulant, then I shouldn't be riding.
ymmv.
dcarver
Well-known member
...and being sick with 102F fever while riding at night in a rainstorm with thunder and lightening with no safe place to stop and no way to continue on. Fun stuff.
Sharif
Well-known member
Plus one on avoiding stimulants. I never use coffee or anything of the like when on a long ride. And I love coffee!
Great topic Steve!
I will post some thoughts when I get a chance.
Working my 3rd straight week without a day off.
12 hours a day. Fatigued! LOL
I have found some solutions that have not been mentioned that have yielded great results!
I will post some thoughts when I get a chance.
Working my 3rd straight week without a day off.
12 hours a day. Fatigued! LOL
I have found some solutions that have not been mentioned that have yielded great results!
garyahouse
newbs need the forum
Was hoping you'd weigh in on this one, Tony. You've certainly earned the right.
Gary
The article by Don Arther (linked to above) goes into a lot of that and is from an MD of some experience.
Nanahanman
Well-known member
For me, fatigue shows with tension and the inability to make smooth turns on the twisties. Just can't seem to relax.
Rolling up 219 last year, late in the afternoon, I was increasingly frustrated with how badly I was taking the turns.
It's a great road and I was having no fun.
Passed a motel with the thought of just another 30 minutes of riding. Screw this! Stopped, went back and got a room.
Next morning had a blast continuing on up to Buffalo having had a good nights rest.
Best to pace yourself and not get tired in the first place.
Rolling up 219 last year, late in the afternoon, I was increasingly frustrated with how badly I was taking the turns.
It's a great road and I was having no fun.
Passed a motel with the thought of just another 30 minutes of riding. Screw this! Stopped, went back and got a room.
Next morning had a blast continuing on up to Buffalo having had a good nights rest.
Best to pace yourself and not get tired in the first place.
Canadian FJR
Canadian FJR
Still waiting for Tony's suggestions.
Canadian FJR
Canadian FJR
bgross
Recusant Infidel
I'm looking forward to Tony's contribution, and enjoying many others'.
For me (personal experience, obviously limited), fatigue is of several types and causes.
Sleepiness/drowsiness can be s symptom of sleep deprivation** (not enough sleep!) or of other fatigue factors.
For me, those other factors include:
*noise pollution. Good earplugs are essential and effectIve in reducing this source of fatigue.
*metabolic needs. I'm a 'grazer' and can keep my blood sugar in a good range with snacks. For me, complex carbs are best. Others need more protein. Others need a full meal on a regular schedule. (A meal will make my eyelids slam shut! Pass the granola bars or a peanut butter sandwich and I'll be good until the bike needs more fuel.
*Hydration & electrolytes. Stay ahead of the curve and monitor urinary output & color.
*hypo/hyperthermia. Extreme heat is exhausting, even when you stay hydrated (right, Gary?) and, for me, manifests in irritability and drowsiness. On the other hand, cold - and a declining core temp - is sneakier: my loss of focus is subtle. I might thing that I'm doing well enough, 'observing my own monitoring routines (check mirrors, speedo, fuel, road ahead, vehicles around me. Then I remember to check focus by doing simple math problems in my head (calculate current approx. fuel economy by estimating how many gallons I've used since last fueling and how many miles I've traveled - normally a simple thing, but when the cold is creeping in...) or reciting poetry.
Just a few things I watch for.
Sleep, when needed, is important. But a nap is sometimes a bandaid - be aware of the causes.
**Some LD riders, such as the late John Ryan, seem to function quite well on very few hours of sleep per day - on OR off the bike. Some mere mortals can temporarily postpone a good night's sleep with anything from 10-20 minute power naps, and still others need a 2-3 hour "real nap" to get over the hump. Know thyself.
For me (personal experience, obviously limited), fatigue is of several types and causes.
Sleepiness/drowsiness can be s symptom of sleep deprivation** (not enough sleep!) or of other fatigue factors.
For me, those other factors include:
*noise pollution. Good earplugs are essential and effectIve in reducing this source of fatigue.
*metabolic needs. I'm a 'grazer' and can keep my blood sugar in a good range with snacks. For me, complex carbs are best. Others need more protein. Others need a full meal on a regular schedule. (A meal will make my eyelids slam shut! Pass the granola bars or a peanut butter sandwich and I'll be good until the bike needs more fuel.
*Hydration & electrolytes. Stay ahead of the curve and monitor urinary output & color.
*hypo/hyperthermia. Extreme heat is exhausting, even when you stay hydrated (right, Gary?) and, for me, manifests in irritability and drowsiness. On the other hand, cold - and a declining core temp - is sneakier: my loss of focus is subtle. I might thing that I'm doing well enough, 'observing my own monitoring routines (check mirrors, speedo, fuel, road ahead, vehicles around me. Then I remember to check focus by doing simple math problems in my head (calculate current approx. fuel economy by estimating how many gallons I've used since last fueling and how many miles I've traveled - normally a simple thing, but when the cold is creeping in...) or reciting poetry.
Just a few things I watch for.
Sleep, when needed, is important. But a nap is sometimes a bandaid - be aware of the causes.
**Some LD riders, such as the late John Ryan, seem to function quite well on very few hours of sleep per day - on OR off the bike. Some mere mortals can temporarily postpone a good night's sleep with anything from 10-20 minute power naps, and still others need a 2-3 hour "real nap" to get over the hump. Know thyself.
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Spud
Well-known member
I've noticed a big increase in temperature is damn near like getting sedated when you're cold. I've had a few rides where I've gone from 30's or 40's then it warms up to 60+ very quickly (like a big elevation drop in the early morning). Once all that warm air starts flowing it about puts me to sleep.
Nanahanman
Well-known member
The heat problem can really sneak up on you.
We were riding in the US Southwest in July (I know...mad dogs and Englishmen...) and we thought we were drinking enough but still got sick.
It was like driving into a hair dryer!
Next day, a stop every hour and lots of fluids.
We were riding in the US Southwest in July (I know...mad dogs and Englishmen...) and we thought we were drinking enough but still got sick.
It was like driving into a hair dryer!
Next day, a stop every hour and lots of fluids.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Dealing with fatigue is one of those things people need to train themselves for. Without understanding and recognizing the symptoms of impending sleep, it will feel like it "suddenly" came on, where in reality it had been looming for a few hours.
Putting sleep off varies from person to person, and also depends on the activity. Put me in my truck's passenger seat and I'll be out in 10 minutes. Put me on my motorcycle and I can ride 24 hours straight without a nap. How many days in a row I can do that would be the test I guess.
I'm one of those people that gets a strong second wind. I enjoy working graveyards and have worked without significant sleep for nearly a week. The crash afterwards was epic, and thankfully I didn't have to test how much my skills had deteriorated. Basically, we were on a manhunt and if I wasn't driving, I would catch very short naps of 15-20 minutes in the front seat of a car, with a rifle in my lap. However, years of pulling that shit made it much easier on me than others.
Before someone sets out to deny their body sleep, they really need to try it out. Especially before jumping on a MC and rolling down the highway. I know when I just can't take it anymore and have to rest or fall asleep no matter what I'm doing. I'd bet most successful LD riders also know the signs and symptoms of being done. Do what you can to experience those symptoms before jumping into a ride.
Putting sleep off varies from person to person, and also depends on the activity. Put me in my truck's passenger seat and I'll be out in 10 minutes. Put me on my motorcycle and I can ride 24 hours straight without a nap. How many days in a row I can do that would be the test I guess.
I'm one of those people that gets a strong second wind. I enjoy working graveyards and have worked without significant sleep for nearly a week. The crash afterwards was epic, and thankfully I didn't have to test how much my skills had deteriorated. Basically, we were on a manhunt and if I wasn't driving, I would catch very short naps of 15-20 minutes in the front seat of a car, with a rifle in my lap. However, years of pulling that shit made it much easier on me than others.
Before someone sets out to deny their body sleep, they really need to try it out. Especially before jumping on a MC and rolling down the highway. I know when I just can't take it anymore and have to rest or fall asleep no matter what I'm doing. I'd bet most successful LD riders also know the signs and symptoms of being done. Do what you can to experience those symptoms before jumping into a ride.
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I will try and make this short::
About 5 years ago I started riding LD. My mind set was "Do or Die Trying"
I've have changed that attitude to "If it happens - It happens..." I used to fight through the micro-naps and
accept it as part of the ride. After the 1st 10/10ths i did, I was spitting up blood due to my "Diet". Some quick
comments...
Your eyes may be wide open, but if your brain is asleep your vision is useless.
Everyone has different sleep habits- adapt to yours.
Everyone has different diet habits.
What works for me:
I carry cashews, atomic fireballs, welches fruit chews and dentine Fire (Gum) in my tank bag.
I use a hydration device with water, but also purchase chocolate milk and Mt. Dew in route.
(the chocolate milk helps buffer my stomach)
I do carry energy shots ONLY for emergency (It screws up your sleep cycle)
I love a 1-2 hour roadside naps
Just started with music verdict is still out
Keep your brain working-
I like to break down rides into smaller chunks and set goals. Do time calcs...
On the Trans-Canada I started writing a "Book" in my head. When I am tired, I review, tweek
and add to it. (it would make a great movie) LOL
I have found that Bed sleep is better than roadside sleep. BUT roadside sleep is more affordable!
I do not over plan long rides. I love to learn about the ride in-route. This keeps my brain constantly
working.
Gotta go for now... sorry
About 5 years ago I started riding LD. My mind set was "Do or Die Trying"
I've have changed that attitude to "If it happens - It happens..." I used to fight through the micro-naps and
accept it as part of the ride. After the 1st 10/10ths i did, I was spitting up blood due to my "Diet". Some quick
comments...
Your eyes may be wide open, but if your brain is asleep your vision is useless.
Everyone has different sleep habits- adapt to yours.
Everyone has different diet habits.
What works for me:
I carry cashews, atomic fireballs, welches fruit chews and dentine Fire (Gum) in my tank bag.
I use a hydration device with water, but also purchase chocolate milk and Mt. Dew in route.
(the chocolate milk helps buffer my stomach)
I do carry energy shots ONLY for emergency (It screws up your sleep cycle)
I love a 1-2 hour roadside naps
Just started with music verdict is still out
Keep your brain working-
I like to break down rides into smaller chunks and set goals. Do time calcs...
On the Trans-Canada I started writing a "Book" in my head. When I am tired, I review, tweek
and add to it. (it would make a great movie) LOL
I have found that Bed sleep is better than roadside sleep. BUT roadside sleep is more affordable!
I do not over plan long rides. I love to learn about the ride in-route. This keeps my brain constantly
working.
Gotta go for now... sorry
1. Yep
2. Not an issue if prepared (equipment, gear, self)
2a. If you wait for a stop to hydrate, you aren't hydrating and will suffer (to greater or greatest degree)
3. Not required if you drink while moving... unless that's your preference. After all it's about what's safe FOR YOU (and not someone else).
This is NOT overkill: https://www.fjr-tips.org/acc/hyd/hyd.html
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Twigg
Just an old, bald man!
Heat is a whole other topic, but directly linked as it can, and does, contribute to fatigue.
I've lost the link to the article now, but there was a paper published that shows the relationship to the ambient temperature and your body core temperature.
Broadly though, it can be broken down into two temperatures, and two types of rides. Long and short rides, above and below 95F ambient.
For short rides, and by short I mean 30 minutes or less, wear what you want your body can cope. I'd still recommend ATGATT, but ballistic mesh and cordura works well. Once the length of the ride increases it gets more complex.
Under 95F and that cooling breeze can be encouraged. It is still carrying away much of the excess heat your body is trying to shed. The way it does so is to sweat, so you are losing water and need to maintain the levels. Gas stops and occasional water breaks are NOT sufficient. You should be drinking water (or an electrolyte solution), steadily and gradually. Your pee is the best gauge. If you continue to pee normally, and the colour doesn't resemble tea, then you are doing okay. If not, you need water, and lots of it. On one day ride in Texas a few years ago I got through 2 gallons of iced water in a 10 hour ride. Ambient temp hit 117F and I remained hydrated. On-board hydration is mandatory, or take the car and enjoy the air-con.
Now it gets counter-intuitive.
When the temperature goes over around 95F, that cooling breeze is no longer cooling you it is heating you! This is critical as the situation worsens as the temperature rises. Days where the ambient rises to 100+F are common, and these temperatures can kill a motorcyclist. Without preparation you can be in trouble in as little as an hour, and you will not notice until it is getting very late to redress the situation.
In these temperatures you need to restrict the access of the wind to your skin. Shut the vents. If you have a mesh jacket then fit the waterproof liner. I know, it feels like you will fry but you can do something about that too.
My hydration system is a 1 gallon Coleman cooler. The water is pumped through the drinking tube by a small submersible pump. This means that not only can I drink it, I can pump it inside my jacket. With just the cuffs loosened, and a loose collar, the air can flow through slowly and the evaporative effect can make 100F feel chilly. Drink some, pump some down the jacket, and keep rolling.
LD Comfort also sell "sleeves" that are designed to aid this process, and they are a better solution than any "cooling vest", most of which work on the same principle but only for a few hours. They may work for you if your ride is about four hours or less.
I have yet to find a gas station that wouldn't let me replenish my iced water, they are usually very willing and happy to help. Honestly, most are so bemused that you are daft enough to be riding that they don't want your death on their conscience
It is perfectly possible to cross Death Valley, in the height of summer, on a motorcycle and be relatively fresh at the end of it. It helps if you understand what the heat is doing, what the mechanic is, and prepare accordingly. Folk will stare at you with your heavy riding suit all buttoned down when they are finding their T-shirt too hot, but you can smile to yourself, because when they get heat-stroke, you will still be enjoying the ride.
Hope that helps
I've lost the link to the article now, but there was a paper published that shows the relationship to the ambient temperature and your body core temperature.
Broadly though, it can be broken down into two temperatures, and two types of rides. Long and short rides, above and below 95F ambient.
For short rides, and by short I mean 30 minutes or less, wear what you want your body can cope. I'd still recommend ATGATT, but ballistic mesh and cordura works well. Once the length of the ride increases it gets more complex.
Under 95F and that cooling breeze can be encouraged. It is still carrying away much of the excess heat your body is trying to shed. The way it does so is to sweat, so you are losing water and need to maintain the levels. Gas stops and occasional water breaks are NOT sufficient. You should be drinking water (or an electrolyte solution), steadily and gradually. Your pee is the best gauge. If you continue to pee normally, and the colour doesn't resemble tea, then you are doing okay. If not, you need water, and lots of it. On one day ride in Texas a few years ago I got through 2 gallons of iced water in a 10 hour ride. Ambient temp hit 117F and I remained hydrated. On-board hydration is mandatory, or take the car and enjoy the air-con.
Now it gets counter-intuitive.
When the temperature goes over around 95F, that cooling breeze is no longer cooling you it is heating you! This is critical as the situation worsens as the temperature rises. Days where the ambient rises to 100+F are common, and these temperatures can kill a motorcyclist. Without preparation you can be in trouble in as little as an hour, and you will not notice until it is getting very late to redress the situation.
In these temperatures you need to restrict the access of the wind to your skin. Shut the vents. If you have a mesh jacket then fit the waterproof liner. I know, it feels like you will fry but you can do something about that too.
My hydration system is a 1 gallon Coleman cooler. The water is pumped through the drinking tube by a small submersible pump. This means that not only can I drink it, I can pump it inside my jacket. With just the cuffs loosened, and a loose collar, the air can flow through slowly and the evaporative effect can make 100F feel chilly. Drink some, pump some down the jacket, and keep rolling.
LD Comfort also sell "sleeves" that are designed to aid this process, and they are a better solution than any "cooling vest", most of which work on the same principle but only for a few hours. They may work for you if your ride is about four hours or less.
I have yet to find a gas station that wouldn't let me replenish my iced water, they are usually very willing and happy to help. Honestly, most are so bemused that you are daft enough to be riding that they don't want your death on their conscience
It is perfectly possible to cross Death Valley, in the height of summer, on a motorcycle and be relatively fresh at the end of it. It helps if you understand what the heat is doing, what the mechanic is, and prepare accordingly. Folk will stare at you with your heavy riding suit all buttoned down when they are finding their T-shirt too hot, but you can smile to yourself, because when they get heat-stroke, you will still be enjoying the ride.
Hope that helps
snackbauer
Well-known member
Quote from bgross above:
"*metabolic needs. I'm a 'grazer' and can keep my blood sugar in a good range with snacks. For me, complex carbs are best. Others need more protein. Others need a full meal on a regular schedule. (A meal will make my eyelids slam shut! Pass the granola bars or a peanut butter sandwich and I'll be good until the bike needs more fuel."
I too am a grazer, a full meal would mark the beginning of the end of my ride. Snack your way to success!
"*metabolic needs. I'm a 'grazer' and can keep my blood sugar in a good range with snacks. For me, complex carbs are best. Others need more protein. Others need a full meal on a regular schedule. (A meal will make my eyelids slam shut! Pass the granola bars or a peanut butter sandwich and I'll be good until the bike needs more fuel."
I too am a grazer, a full meal would mark the beginning of the end of my ride. Snack your way to success!
Agreed with you on no meals...
Fatigue identifying is key- and adjusting to your own signs and symtoms.
For me :
I cannot keep a steady speed when I am ready to rest. I do not want to miss this sign, so I do not have a cruise control AND I will not back off my throttle tension. Free wrist all the way unless I use the throttle lock for eating or making equipment adjustments.
Fatigue identifying is key- and adjusting to your own signs and symtoms.
For me :
I cannot keep a steady speed when I am ready to rest. I do not want to miss this sign, so I do not have a cruise control AND I will not back off my throttle tension. Free wrist all the way unless I use the throttle lock for eating or making equipment adjustments.
russperry
Well-known member
Agree with Twigg on the benefit of keeping buttoned up. I crossed the Nevada desert in '13 when the temperature was an indicated 110+ for over 8 hours. I was using a manual method of providing water onto my UnderArmour shirt (from water bottles in my tank bag) and kept the jacket fully closed up with no vents open. I was able to make it with only a single break under some very rare trees at a rest stop just west of Tonopah, then made it the rest of the way to Alamo NV in pretty good shape and without any adverse reactions.Heat is a whole other topic, but directly linked as it can, and does, contribute to fatigue.
I've lost the link to the article now, but there was a paper published that shows the relationship to the ambient temperature and your body core temperature.
Broadly though, it can be broken down into two temperatures, and two types of rides. Long and short rides, above and below 95F ambient.
For short rides, and by short I mean 30 minutes or less, wear what you want your body can cope. I'd still recommend ATGATT, but ballistic mesh and cordura works well. Once the length of the ride increases it gets more complex.
Under 95F and that cooling breeze can be encouraged. It is still carrying away much of the excess heat your body is trying to shed. The way it does so is to sweat, so you are losing water and need to maintain the levels. Gas stops and occasional water breaks are NOT sufficient. You should be drinking water (or an electrolyte solution), steadily and gradually. Your pee is the best gauge. If you continue to pee normally, and the colour doesn't resemble tea, then you are doing okay. If not, you need water, and lots of it. On one day ride in Texas a few years ago I got through 2 gallons of iced water in a 10 hour ride. Ambient temp hit 117F and I remained hydrated. On-board hydration is mandatory, or take the car and enjoy the air-con.
Now it gets counter-intuitive.
When the temperature goes over around 95F, that cooling breeze is no longer cooling you it is heating you! This is critical as the situation worsens as the temperature rises. Days where the ambient rises to 100+F are common, and these temperatures can kill a motorcyclist. Without preparation you can be in trouble in as little as an hour, and you will not notice until it is getting very late to redress the situation.
In these temperatures you need to restrict the access of the wind to your skin. Shut the vents. If you have a mesh jacket then fit the waterproof liner. I know, it feels like you will fry but you can do something about that too.
My hydration system is a 1 gallon Coleman cooler. The water is pumped through the drinking tube by a small submersible pump. This means that not only can I drink it, I can pump it inside my jacket. With just the cuffs loosened, and a loose collar, the air can flow through slowly and the evaporative effect can make 100F feel chilly. Drink some, pump some down the jacket, and keep rolling.
LD Comfort also sell "sleeves" that are designed to aid this process, and they are a better solution than any "cooling vest", most of which work on the same principle but only for a few hours. They may work for you if your ride is about four hours or less.
I have yet to find a gas station that wouldn't let me replenish my iced water, they are usually very willing and happy to help. Honestly, most are so bemused that you are daft enough to be riding that they don't want your death on their conscience
It is perfectly possible to cross Death Valley, in the height of summer, on a motorcycle and be relatively fresh at the end of it. It helps if you understand what the heat is doing, what the mechanic is, and prepare accordingly. Folk will stare at you with your heavy riding suit all buttoned down when they are finding their T-shirt too hot, but you can smile to yourself, because when they get heat-stroke, you will still be enjoying the ride.
Hope that helps
Now I don't know if I was so much "enjoying" it, but the ride was not unduly harsh on me and I considered it a success....
I have been watching this discussion and find it both enlightening and perplexing at the same time.
Enlightening because I have experienced some of these same symptoms of fatigue (not necessarily while riding a motorcycle), and perplexing because so many of us are so readily willing to push ourselves into what is undeniably a dangerous area of motorcycle operation, considering the widespread concern in our community for safety in general. We make all sorts of concessions and adjustments to our equipment, install farkles on the bike for visibility and illumination, all with the idea that we will marginally increase our personal safety while riding, but the simplest and most primary requirement is being a competently alert operator.
Not many of us would go out and have a few stiff drinks, or smoke a big fattie, before riding; at least not many riders that I have exposure to. And yet many riders think nothing of operating under the influence of severe fatigue. I get the "challenge" aspects. We all want to be Bear Grilles and survivors of the challenge... But is the challenge and the accomplishment really worth the "rewards"? I guess it depends a lot on what defines you. Maybe that is the part of the "big thrill" for the LD crowd which I have never fully been able to fully comprehend?
It just seems to me that you might want to make a conscious effort to not intentionally put yourself into those situations where it will be you battling your own fatigue for your life. Sure, sometimes it sneaks up on you and you need to know how to deal with it. But this stuff is also fairly predictable. Why even put yourself in that situation to begin with?
Flame away. I know I am of a minority opinion. I'm well used to that here.
Enlightening because I have experienced some of these same symptoms of fatigue (not necessarily while riding a motorcycle), and perplexing because so many of us are so readily willing to push ourselves into what is undeniably a dangerous area of motorcycle operation, considering the widespread concern in our community for safety in general. We make all sorts of concessions and adjustments to our equipment, install farkles on the bike for visibility and illumination, all with the idea that we will marginally increase our personal safety while riding, but the simplest and most primary requirement is being a competently alert operator.
Not many of us would go out and have a few stiff drinks, or smoke a big fattie, before riding; at least not many riders that I have exposure to. And yet many riders think nothing of operating under the influence of severe fatigue. I get the "challenge" aspects. We all want to be Bear Grilles and survivors of the challenge... But is the challenge and the accomplishment really worth the "rewards"? I guess it depends a lot on what defines you. Maybe that is the part of the "big thrill" for the LD crowd which I have never fully been able to fully comprehend?
It just seems to me that you might want to make a conscious effort to not intentionally put yourself into those situations where it will be you battling your own fatigue for your life. Sure, sometimes it sneaks up on you and you need to know how to deal with it. But this stuff is also fairly predictable. Why even put yourself in that situation to begin with?
Flame away. I know I am of a minority opinion. I'm well used to that here.
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