Smuggler Project

[Riona]

Anyone got spare panniers to donate ?

Looking at the bike in profile, I'm thinking that echoing the profile of the pannier might be a good start point for the profile of the "New Thing" - not the gas tank as previously speculated.

Anyone have some used panniers (perhaps damaged from a roll over and replaced with new) that they would part with ?

 

[Riona]

Talking of the "New Thing" I'm thinking to call it "The Bootlegger"

+ I'm English, and we refer to the trunk of the car as the Boot (and the hood is 'the bonnet')

+ bootlegger is a synonym for smuggler

Let anyone with copyright / intellectual property issues stand forth and PM me.

Or if you have a better idea (I toyed with "rum runner" but preferred "bootlegger" ) let me know.

Riona

 

[SacramentoMike]

I have some thoughts about this project, Riona.

First, I'm WAY impressed. It looks like a great idea and your design ideas sound really good. Waterproof--an absolute necessity. Permanently secured by the tail piece mounting bolts--BIG improvement over anything that could be jimmied off. Lockable--another absolute, and using the third OEM lock is a big plus.

I like the look of the "PPS" concept; it looks a lot like the Hyabusa, a cool design IMO, and I also like the idea of making it large enough for a helmet, or really for much of anything, since I think the original Smuggler is way too small to be of much use for anything. Just an opinion.

As to getting your leg over, why not just test the size and shape with almost anything--a cardboard mock-up, a sack of rags, a small dog (if you can train him to stay)--and see how it works. When I do a camp trip, my back seat holds a big strapped-down waterproof duffel that's a lot bigger than your model. My normal mounting procedure is to stand next to the bike and swing one leg over. Can't do that with the duffel, so I have to either get my leg over the seat from the side (usually have to grab my pant leg and lift for that last little boost, but that would be a problem for someone much shorter. I'm 6'1") or put my right foot on the right peg and swing the left leg over from that position. That gives me the extra height I need to get over.

Finally, I really like the name you picked. But. I don't think Corbin can say much about you doing something similar to something they do. After all, how many companies make tank bags or tail bags? I just hope if you started to sell a few, you wouldn't run into any problems that might be made worse by picking a name that's reminiscent of the name they use? Any patent attorneys on the forum?

But anyway, Riona, I think it's really great. And since I don't carry passengers either, I wish I had one too.

 

[Riona]

I tried SacramentoMike's small dog suggestion and wasted the evening trying to get her to sit still ....

 

[Donal]

I tried SacramentoMike's small dog suggestion and wasted the evening trying to get her to sit still ....

OK............ but did you get 'your leg over'? Not sure if everyone on your side of the pond know what that means to everyone over here.........

 

[Wlfman]

I don't even have an FJR (yet) and I want one.

 

[Yamifz1]

I think you are onto something here. Sounds like you have a great plan and now it is just a matter of the actual fabrication. Like many before me have said if you build a new and better mouse trap people will buy it, myself included.

Keep us updated as to your progeress...pictures are nice too for us simple folk.

 

[Riona]

Working on documenting the project this weekend, so I can get the go-ahead from my instructor to work on it.

Just to level set timing - I'll hope to get the prototype done this quarter (AMJ 2013) - out of wood most likely. BUT, school doesn't run a summer quarter and so I don't get into the composite shop until the Fall quarter (med Sept to Mid Dec) - so turning the wooden prototype into a (female) mold and being able to make a version out of composites (GRP) wouldn't happen much before the end of the year.

Initial steps are:

Prep

- complete design requirements - I'll post that for you guys to comment on - expect first draft this weekend. In fact, I'll put V 0.5 up as my next post for you to provide input

- complete project proposal and review with Instructor for permission to proceed

- Design review with Instructor to get his input on construction techniques, how to make the hatch waterproof, etc.

Base

- Create "mount mule" - a mock-up of the section of the bike I'm fitting to, so I'm not forever taking my FJR apart and dropping glue and wood shavings all over it.

- Construct base of the Bootlegger, to map to the mount mule ( and cross fit to actual bike )

Bootlegger

- Using the base, experiment with different sizes, designs, shapes for the bootlegger itself - mock up in cardboard, door-skin, small dogs ...

- Construct bootlegger box and hatch (wood prototype)

That will probably be the work of this quarter (I have my 'real' curriculum to do as well, plus we all do shop projects for the school or community as well.

Fall Quarter

- translate to composites - make molds from the prototype

- figure out how to make constructing the base repeatable and strong - maybe needs a metal chassis to carry the mount points, or encapsulate wooden bearers into the glass fiber

- use mold to make a first generation base, box and lid

- learn how to put a professional paint finish on it

- learn how to make a decent back rest

....

sorry, rambling on, but these are the details my Instructor wants to see... and I didn't want to leave people with the impression that I'd have one done by tech day and be cranking them out by June ... I'm only a student, not a professional fabricator,

Anyway - throw comments about the project outline (this message) and the requirements document (next post)

 

[Riona]

I'm following a structured design process and trying to get requirements clear first. Here is my list:

Purpose

Primary goal - cameras and other travel related items that need quick access while on a trip. Avoid the need for a tank bag. Avoid the need for a full size top box. Avoid the need to pack fragile things into side opening panniers. Avoid the need to unpack panniers to get at "stuff" during the day. For this goal, no need to have room to stash a helmet as helmet can always go in the pannier overnight when pannier bags are removed.

Secondary goal - allow panniers to be removed and achieve a "sport bike / cafe racer" look while still having room for "stuff". In this role, need to match the "cafe racer solo seat styling" with "is there room to stash a helmet inside"

=> Implication - will not force the design to be big enough for a helmet, if it doesn't go there easily. "cafe racer" Style and primary goal of carrying cameras outweigh need to carry a helmet. If demand, possibly room for two versions, one a few inches taller with room for helmet, but less stylish. Bootlegger "cafe" and Bootlegger "plus". Or even three, if someone wants to use this space to carry an auxiliary fuel tank ...

Mounting Requirements:

Mount points

Must locate to the 5 grab rail/rear tray bolt points

Must rest on rear seat mount points - preferably with rubber strip

May/May not lock to rear seat key operated lock mechanism

Must have lip that overlaps with lip around rear seat location, preferably with some sort of applied rubber gasket

May be open at this point to allow access to under seat area OR may have applied floor above the lip => see requirement for water tight

Fore end / Pilot back rest

Must be comfortable for average rider (not too much vertical or forward lean into the pilot space)

May have an applied padded backrest (in which case need to allow room for that between pilot and Bootlegger

Height

Must be possible to mount/ dismount with bootlegger in place (“leg over” problem)

Desirable: be deep enough to take a helmet (but this would mean quite a large hatch! and may throw off the balance)

Deep enough to have useful storage the full length (otherwise why bother running it out to the tail?)

Not so high it messes up the balance of the bike (visually, ergonomically, mechanically) --- possibility of "plus" version deep enough for helmet

Width

Must be narrow enough to not obstruct panniers

Must be consistent with tail shape / width

Must be wide enough to accommodate lip to fit over passenger seat area

Desirable: Wide enough to take a helmet

Hatch

Must be watertight

Desirable: Lock with the Yamaha “third lock”

Desirable – big enough to allow helmet to go in

Hatch style – inset vs cap-over. Cap-over is likely more water proof, but need to finish the edge

Check how edges on panniers (and top boxes) work

Style

Pick up styling cues from the rest of the bike – gas tank, fairing, panniers, etc. – curves, corners

Paint to match panniers (mix of black box and body color lid like panniers, or fully body color, or silver base (to match frame color) with body color lid

Financials

Not relevant for prototype and first one or two off the mold, but Corbin is expensive at $800

 

[Donal]

Sounds like a brilliant project to me.............

Not too sure about the 'hatch' idea for access, I would like to see something like a seam around the mid-line with a hinge along the 'front' edge and locking at the rear. I know this will introduce sealing problems but will give unlimited access. The tiny access hatch on the Smuggler is not great.

I like the idea of it being fixed in place by using the existing bolt locations; the only downside is restricted access to the rear light cluster and lots of riders (including me) locate their additional fuse panels in the rear cone............

I will be watching this with great interest.

 

[petey]

Would be nice to mount and secure the smuggler with the same mounting system as the back seat....Then removal to access fuse block and rear bulbs would be no issue.

 

[Riona]

@Petey - that was my original plan until I too the rear seat off and looked at how it was held on.

Basically, it has four rubber feet that locate against hard points on the rear sub frame - they provide a resistance to the downward weight of a passenger. Sideways (lateral) location is by the side of the seat cushion engaging on a lip from the rear body work. The only thing that actually "locks" it to the bike is a catch that engages with the rear seat key operated locking mechanism.

That's OK for a seat weighing a few ounces, or one that is under compression from a 100 ~ 200 lb passenger, who is pushing the seat into place.

I judge it not OK for a box that could be carrying a shifting load - all it would take is for something in the box to roll over and thump into one of the sides - that would create a torque that could spring the catch out of the locking mechanism and flip the box off the bike. I MUCH prefer the idea of bolting it on. I assume the Corbin is just using the seat latch - they probably feel they can get away with that because their Smuggler unit is much smaller and lower, hence any possible torque loads would be milder. Besides, it ain't their camera equipment at risk ...

Would you mount a top box that was only held onto the bike with a single spring catch ?

What I COULD do is think about a removable panel in the bottom of the box, that would provide access to the light cluster. When I get further with the prototype I'll see how that might be integrated into the design.

Meanwhile I'll add it as a Requirement (see how nicely this requirement gathering process works ?)

Desirable - Access to the rear light cluster and additional fuse panels in the rear cone without unbolting the Bootlegger............

@Donal - I think you and I are on the same page with regard to the "lid" design - that's what I meant by "inset vs cap-over." - an Inset Hatch would be an opening flap in the top of the box (like a marine hatch or the Corbin design). Cap-Over was my shorthand for the whole of the top of the box lifting (or hinging) off - like a traditional top-box. This would be pretty watertight as the overlap of the lid over the base of the trunk would keep water out, would provide for the best access into the trunk - probably the only way to get a helmet in there - and would be a good design from a style POV - the base of the trunk could be silver (to match the sub frame) or matt black (to echo the pannier style and blend into the front seat) and the lid of the trunk would be finished in body color.

Obviously the "third lock" would work in this design, as it's intended to lock a top box with just this type of lid

Keep the comments coming, PLEASE !

Riona

 

[petey]

Would be nice to mount and secure the smuggler with the same mounting system as the back seat....Then removal to access fuse block and rear bulbs would be no issue.

IMHO the back seat is mounted solid on an FJR. It doesn't move from side to side even with no one sitting on it. Yes the smuggler would have to be supported (on all sides) and fit snug just like the back seat, against the subframe, the back and underneath...

 

[ahchiu]

This would need to be secured the same way the rear seat is secured and release the same way, if it's bolted down you will not be able to remove the front seat with out removing the rear first and would make accessing under the seat a PITA.

 

[SacramentoMike]

My front seat (only) comes up once the latch is released with the key on the side, then the back seat lifts right off. It's the front seat that holds the back seat on, at least with my '05. This isn't a Gen I/Gen II thing is it? I think Petey's right on having the key release secure the new box the same as it secures the back seat. Simpler solution.

This is an edit. I started to picture this thing, and decided that since the Bootlegger is going to be much longer than the stock back seat, it's probably a good idea to secure it on the back end too. The really worthless OEM tail piece is held down by (IIRC) three bolts. It's certainly no loss to get rid of it; mine's been hanging on a nail in my garage since I put on a Gerauld rack years back. But how about using ONE of those bolt positions to secure the Bootlegger back on that end. The front seat holds down the front end, secured by the key hook. You could even do some kind of a quick release in lieu of a torqued bolt to keep the back secure so you could access fuses, etc., easier.

 

[Chuck35]

Perhaps you could have an adapter that would bolt onto the rear rack using the existing 3 bolts. This could secure a latch that is released from inside the Bootlegger.

So to remove it (on Gen II) would require turning the key in the stock rear seat lock as well as tripping a lever inside the unit.

I'd really like to see a unit that covered the rear rack also.

 

[Riona]

@Chuck35 Agreed - the idea is that this covers the rear rack are as well, else I'd just suck it up and save up for the Corbin version

@ Mike, Markus, Petey - I was playing with various thoughts for the locking mechanism.

If I was Yamaha and had the Pannier assembly at my disposal, I would use the same locking mechanism for the Bootlegger - when you manipulate the pannier handle it pushes out a long tongue that locks the pannier in place. A similar design would lock the back end of the Bootlegger into a slot on the rear rack.

Anyway - input received and I'll see what can be done ...

RIona

.

 

[SacramentoMike]

If I was Yamaha and had the Pannier assembly at my disposal, I would use the same locking mechanism for the Bootlegger - when you manipulate the pannier handle it pushes out a long tongue that locks the pannier in place. A similar design would lock the back end of the Bootlegger into a slot on the rear rack.

I like that thought a lot. But instead of having the locking tongue thingy operated by or connected to the handle or the Bootlegger cover, maybe consider having a sliding piece inside the BL--down at the bottom of it--that you could simply slide or click into place, locking it to the bike's tail end, once you put the BL into position. That would be so much simpler. Then you lock your cover and it's secured inside the box.

I'm imagining something as simple in concept as the sliding lock bolt on a gate. Or your bathroom door.

 

[Fred W]

My front seat (only) comes up once the latch is released with the key on the side, then the back seat lifts right off. It's the front seat that holds the back seat on, at least with my '05. This isn't a Gen I/Gen II thing is it?

Yes it is. On 1st gens the front seat latches to the bike with the keyed mechanism and the rear seat needs to be put on first and is only held in place by the front seat.

On 2nd and 3rd gens the front seat goes on the bike first and there is a small latch under the seat which can only be accessed if/when the rear seat is first removed via the keyed latch mechanism.

 

[ridernotbiker]

Dang Riona. Who are you?

(This is a mentally stimulating thread with great feedback. I'm impressed.)

This project, and how you're applying a sequenced logic working toward a functionally well-rounded product is so cool. You lay out the analyses so well.

Apparently I don't meet many minds that function this way. In a world where the daily streams of information are trivial and contrary to common sense (think "social and political media"), your approach is easy to relate to and refreshing.

If you have any sketches of concept, please post them. And progress pictures as it develops. This thread is going to be fun to follow and expectations are encouraging.