TC tensioner replaced (07 slapper)

[dcarver]

I replaced mine on a hunch. Had some intermittent noise, of course it would only rattle when I was on long distance rides and never at the dealer. Several riders at WFO heard it and stated I'd never make it home. Think it was 80 bucks or so. No noise since. Good simple cheap insurance. And YES, I read Ionbeam's tail of woe and decided I wanted nothing of it...

 

[RadioHowie]

Alan,

I understand what you're saying, "inconsistent assembly and insufficient quality control", but without a baseline reading on spring tension on a "good" CCT, how would one know a replacement they've purchased is any better than what they're replacing?

Here's another question for you....IF one had an FJR with the typical "noise at idle" chain noise, should one replace the CCT with a new one that might fit into the "inconsistent/insuffiecient" category, or disassemble the stocker, increase the spring tension by one turn, and reinstall?

 

[RsvlFeej]

I just hit 40,000 Miles on my '03,( I know; lightweight), and so far my motor is quiet and happy.

10-15K miles to go... Roseville Yamaha reported a rash of Gen 1's needing CCTs w/ roughly 50,000 on the clock. I tied my CCT replacement in with the second valve adjust @ 52K and got off (relatively) lightly $$$-wise.

 

[ionbeam]

...I understand what you're saying, "inconsistent assembly and insufficient quality control", but without a baseline reading on spring tension on a "good" CCT, how would one know a replacement they've purchased is any better than what they're replacing?
Here's another question for you....IF one had an FJR with the typical "noise at idle" chain noise, should one replace the CCT with a new one that might fit into the "inconsistent/insuffiecient" category, or disassemble the stocker, increase the spring tension by one turn, and reinstall?

As I said earlier, "The cam chain tensioner is a touchy feely part without absolute specs." Without previous experience it would be hard to tell if your CCT, new or used is in the range of acceptable. The best spec I can offer is to test it yourself:

Fully extend the CCT plunger. From the end cap of the CCT measure roughly 1/2" down the plunger; mark this point on the plunger with a felt pen or equivalent. Now measure roughly 1" on the plunger and mark this point.

Retract the plunger fully into the CCT. Hold the CCT so that you have a finger on the end of the plunger. Now, using your other hand release the CCT Plunger while trying to feel the spring tension with your finger. Pay close attention to the spring force at the first mark on the plunger rod and note the plunger force at the second mark.

If there is noticeable force at the first mark and almost zero force at the second mark I would suggest that the CCT is outside of an acceptable range. How is that for a solid measurement? You may have to do this test several times to get an accurate feel for the tension. Also, retract the plunger and let it extend while feeling for smooth operation (the FSM test for the CCT). If you are replacing the CCT yourself be sure to compare the old and new CCT and pay close attention to the force at the 1" point. When you install a new CCT, your used cam chain is still going to be elongated. Even though you have a new CCT, it will be functioning at the 1" mark, not the 1/2" mark because of the chain wear.

I have found that even new CCTs have significantly lower force at the 1" mark, but there is still some force there. I can't understand how they could design a CCT that makes strong force when the cam chain is new and doesn't need it, yet has almost no force as the chain wears and needs the force to take up the wear.

I found what appears to me to be variation in new CCTs, most likely caused by assembly. When you buy an new cam chain tensioner you have no way to know what is in the box, it's a crap shoot IMO. That said, when people have the CCT replaced they all say the noise got better. I dunno if that is because the act of installing a new CCT helps take up the chain slack or if the new CCT really has stronger spring force. I will note that at least a couple of people that had the CCT replaced had noise again within a few thousand miles and ended up changing the CCT a second time.

Don't lose sight of the fact that cam chain noise is due to an elongated cam chain, the CCT is just a makeup device. The real root fix for cam chain noise is to replace the chain.

 

[radman]

Which is what I plan to do during next winters layup, at which point Frank should have in the neighborhood of 65-70k on him. Thought I had some light noise as described, reset the tensioner, haven't heard the sound since, warm or cold. With the cover off this winter for valve adjust, tensioner loosened and tightened fine with what seemed to be about 3/4-1 full turn of the screw, chain tight as Howies checkbook when tensioner released.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Don't lose sight of the fact that cam chain noise is due to an elongated cam chain, the CCT is just a makeup device. The real root fix for cam chain noise is to replace the chain.

Even with a new chain -- without the tensioner, I'm pretty sure it would be noisy? The CCT keeps the tight/slack variations from whipping the long chain runs. Pulling the cam lobes against the valve springs puts varying pressures on the cam drive chain.

If the chain just fit around all the sprockets and was tight in both runs, when new -- then, yes, no noise (or, a shortened used chain -- bad idea). But, when there's slack -- new or used chain -- there'll probably be noise.

There have been many noisy cam drive chain assemblies in other applications without catastrophic results. And many so tight that they whine continually.

Then, too, there have been well documented catastrophic cam drive chain failures.

It's the nature of the design.

 

[Fred W]

The other thing about the FJR CCT that bothers me is that, unlike every automotive CCT I've ever seen, the FJR tensioner has no ratcheting mechanism to prevent the tensioner from retracting.

Now I'm sure that the intention of the spiral groove affair cut in the body of the tensioner is to make it harder for the tensioner to retract than extend, but under vibration and constant tension of the chain, I could see the tensioner retracting under certain conditions. Without a ratchet mechanism the tensioner is highly dependent on the torsional spring tension, which seems to be the varying component. So with a weak spring, maybe the noisy chains are not really all that worn. Maybe those weak springed tensioners have actually retracted.

A chain will only get longer, never shorter. I see no reason for the tensioner to have the ability to retract, It should only extend.

 

[radman]

A chain will only get longer, never shorter. I see no reason for the tensioner to have the ability to retract, It should only extend.

It needs the ability to retract when doing valve adjustments.

 

[RadioHowie]

.....tight as Howies checkbook.....

You have NO idea. I buy tuna in bulk to save 2 cents per ounce.

.....or, a shortened used chain -- bad idea.....

Not only is this a bad idea, I don't think it's even possible. I don't think there's enough slack in the entire chain run to allow for the removal of a single link.

And considering the amount of work it would take to pull the chain, R&R a link and wind up with a sure-to-fail end product, the $20 or so dollars for a NEW chain sounds LOTS smarter. My checkbook isn't THAT tight!

And finally, re-tensioning the CCT by disassembly and 1 turn of the plunger shaft to increase the tension on the "clock" spring.

Possible? Or false economy?

 

[Fred W]

A chain will only get longer, never shorter. I see no reason for the tensioner to have the ability to retract, It should only extend.

It needs the ability to retract when doing valve adjustments.

Yeah, of course. So there is usually some kind of a ratchet release screw or pawl that allows you to manually retract the tensioner for maintenance. I meant in use...

Or were you kidding?

 

[browndog]

The other thing about the FJR CCT that bothers me is that, unlike every automotive CCT I've ever seen, the FJR tensioner has no ratcheting mechanism to prevent the tensioner from retracting.
Now I'm sure that the intention of the spiral groove affair cut in the body of the tensioner is to make it harder for the tensioner to retract than extend, but under vibration and constant tension of the chain, I could see the tensioner retracting under certain conditions. Without a ratchet mechanism the tensioner is highly dependent on the torsional spring tension, which seems to be the varying component. So with a weak spring, maybe the noisy chains are not really all that worn. Maybe those weak springed tensioners have actually retracted.

A chain will only get longer, never shorter. I see no reason for the tensioner to have the ability to retract, It should only extend.

I agree. had my ticker fix done about a month ago. No chain noise before. Got it back and put about 500 on it. Now I hear the chain @ 3500 exactly. Not at idle, not at 4000 only 3500 under consistent throttle. Tech listened and said it was a LAZY TENSIONER. They are replacing now. Chain was in spec 500 miles ago w/ 22000 on it, which would lead me to believe that it is the tensioner, and it is retracting @ some point. This didn't occur until they retracted it during the ticker fix?? We'll see. I asked to keep the old one for inspection.

 

[wfooshee]

Speculation, no science involved at all. Ancient Greek style "thought experiment."

Once installed, the spring in the CCT spends its entire life "unwound" and continuing to "unwind." Yanking the camshafts requires yanking the chain, which requires yanking the CCT, which requires winding it up to the full CW position, re-tensioning the spring.

The spring has been compared to a clock spring, which unwinds to apply force to the plunger. Now that spring has spent its entire life all settled in nice and cozy in a HOT environment. Hotter than any clock sees. I'm wondering if the steel takes a bit of a comfortable set, and winding it fully for CCT removal damages it in some way?

Basically, these failures seem to be after someone has dicked around with them for one reason or another. Which is why I was careful not to when I checked mine last week, only turned it a half turn or so CW to check spring pressure.

 

[mattster31]

The other thing about the FJR CCT that bothers me is that, unlike every automotive CCT I've ever seen, the FJR tensioner has no ratcheting mechanism to prevent the tensioner from retracting.
A chain will only get longer, never shorter. I see no reason for the tensioner to have the ability to retract, It should only extend.

I didn't realize that was the case with the FJR CCT. I re-built the motor (twice, don't ask) on my 1987 FZR1000, and the cam tensioner (which was in the middle of the engine case, not the side) was just a plunger with grooves on the side and a spring in the back. When re-installing, you inserted the unit retracted (there was a small clip that had to be manually lifted to allow retraction) without the spring in the back. Once you were sure of cam positions and timing, you simply inserted the spring behind the plunger, and tightened the bolt behind that until it stopped. As you did this, you would hear the plunger "ratcheting" in to position. There was no way for the plunger to release, even if the spring was removed. At least that's what I remember.

 

[Fred W]

The other thing about the FJR CCT that bothers me is that, unlike every automotive CCT I've ever seen, the FJR tensioner has no ratcheting mechanism to prevent the tensioner from retracting.
A chain will only get longer, never shorter. I see no reason for the tensioner to have the ability to retract, It should only extend.

I didn't realize that was the case with the FJR CCT. I re-built the motor (twice, don't ask) on my 1987 FZR1000, and the cam tensioner (which was in the middle of the engine case, not the side) was just a plunger with grooves on the side and a spring in the back. When re-installing, you inserted the unit retracted (there was a small clip that had to be manually lifted to allow retraction) without the spring in the back. Once you were sure of cam positions and timing, you simply inserted the spring behind the plunger, and tightened the bolt behind that until it stopped. As you did this, you would hear the plunger "ratcheting" in to position. There was no way for the plunger to release, even if the spring was removed. At least that's what I remember.

Which is similar to all the automotive type CCT's I've dealt with. With a one-way ratcheting mechanism, even if the tensioner spring were to break or go soft, the slack in the chain would grow very, very slowly as the chain stretches and sprockets wear, but would never instantly just go slack, as in enough to skip a tooth on the sprocket, without lots and lots of slowly building warning noise first.

 

[johnny]

For those having the CCT and new chain done by the dealer, what are you paying?