Warchild
Benevolent Dictator
This thread discusses why XJRFJR isn't getting an aftermarket HID kit.
This is progressive; it reads from the bottom up:
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 02:23 AM
Here's another 3rd party test with no incentive to steer the public at large in the wrong direction:
Consumer Reports HID test
Pay close attention to these details:
What the law allows. Federal standards allow high beams to throw lots of light far ahead, but limit low-beam levels for oncoming drivers to minimize glare. Carmakers typically channel an HID’s extra light toward the sides to stay within those standards.
Side light has its benefits. "You’re more likely to see objects on the right side of the road," says Mark Rea, director of the Lighting Research Center at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y.
But neither HID nor halogen lights may provide enough light down the road on their low beams, says Michael Flannagan, senior associate research scientist at the University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute. "Each year, some 2,300 pedestrians are killed at night in the road, not on the shoulder," says Flannagan, who analyzed 11 years of nationwide crash data to calculate the effect of darkness on pedestrian fatalities. His 2001 study found that pedestrians are killed at four times the rate in darkness as in daylight.
"The farther drivers can see straight ahead on low beams, the better," says Flannagan. We agree. Unfortunately, while many HID lights we tested were among the better performers, even the best didn’t outdistance the best halogens.
What we found. We compared 31 cars and trucks with halogen lights and 10 with HIDs, measuring their ability to light the road ahead and along the sides as well as checking them for glare (see Headlight testing).
Six out of 10 vehicles with HIDs and 9 out of 31 with halogens reached the 400-foot marker on our test course with low beams, compared with an average of 335 feet for all models tested.
The farthest so far: the inexpensive, halogen-equipped Mazda Protegé5. Its low beams illuminated our 600-foot marker without creating a glare problem.
Both types of lights produced our worst performers. The HID-equipped Audi TT’s low beams lit only to our 200-foot marker, while the halogen-equipped Chrysler Sebring and Pontiac Grand Prix provided weak, nonuniform light.
Little room for error. While even 200 feet of lighting may sound like enough, it may not be. Based on typical reaction times and braking distances, drivers traveling at 50 mph need 237 feet to see a pedestrian, hit the brake pedal, and stop in time. Wet or icy roads and higher speeds increase braking distance, while fog, glare, and fatigue reduce visibility.
<END QUOTE>
Keep in mind that ALL THESE VEHICLES were using bulbs and housings designed from the get go to work together, not a mish mash of technologies.
Also, pay special attention to the comments about the low beams! If you replace your H4 bulbs on the FJR with an HID bulb, say bye bye to your high beam.
Saying that HID in a halogen housing produces more useful light without any sort of scientific data to back it up is like me saying I put a new exhaust on my FJR and got 10 more hp because the buttmeter told me so.
Oh and hey WC, see those guys that are tabulating the data? Are those credentials enough for you? I'd much rather believe these guys than some guys out riding their bikes at night for years blah blah blah.
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 02:01 AM
QUOTE (Warchild @ Oct 18 2005, 02:10 AM)
QUOTE
After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be.
Well, if you read it on the internet, it must be true.
So I guess you could copy-n-paste this guy's web site to your heart's delight if you want to....
Or..... maybe..... you could listen to those who have been running HIDs in their oh-so flawed factory lamp housings for hundreds of thousands of miles with not a single problem. Guys who know a thing or two about night-riding their motorcycles... veterans of the Endurance Riding community, with years and years and years of actual, underway experience running HIDs.
HID kits in factory reflector housings are "not all its cracked up to be?" Says who.... a self-proclaimed "expert" who sells halogen-only systems? Please.... the dude's a flippin' salesman, for crying out loud! He is no more an "authority" than you, me and the man on the moon. Just because he proclaimed himself an authority on his web site? Where he is sellings his halogen-only wares?! Sorry, but that doesn't mean dick.
But hey, if you're convinced HID is all wrong for you after reading some internet web sites, okay, that's cool. No worries. I don't really care who does or doesn't want to upgrade to HID. Trust me, I don't. And I'm not even selling any competing halogen products. Hell, I'm not even selling these HID kits.
But I did pay almost $300 for the HID kit that is coming by FedEx, and I will install and thoroughly test it out. If I like what I find, I'll share the info with those who are interested. If I don't like it, or don't like aspects about it, I'll be sharing that, too.
But don't don't be trying to sell a bunch of info that you've only read about, without the benefit of actual, first-hand experience using this technology. There is no substitute for real-world, underway, on-the-road experience with these systems; that is, with the kit installed in your motorcycle, and you riding it down the darkest road you can find, and seeing (literally) with your own eyes, THEN you can make a determination for yourself. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.
Ok, we can play this game.
#1 Do you design headlamp systems?
#2 Can you disagree with the fact that HID bulbs were not designed to be in Halogen reflectors/projectors/housings.
#3 I sure as hell know that not everything on the Internet is not true. That's pretty condescending, but hey, it's your playpen. I am providing information that will and can help the people in this forum make an informed decision as to how they may spend their money.
#4 I did not copy and paste the website, and not once has ANYONE refuted what I posted other than replying with anecdotal evidence, including you.
#5 I don't have to listen to guys who have been "running HIDs in their oh-so flawed factory lamp housings for hundreds of thousands of miles without a single problem" Show me the facts and I will start listening. This is still an anecdotal rebuttal on your part. Oh, and NOT ONCE did I say that the factory lamp housings were flawed. You are putting words in MY mouth. Go RE READ my posts. I am saying that THE FACTORY HOUSINGS WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR HID BULBS. How can you with a straight face reply to me and say that this is not true, or that the results you get are NOT AS GOOD AS A SYSTEM DESIGNED WITH HOUSING FOR AND WORKING WITH HID BULBS.
Are you HONESTLY saying that the STOCK factory reflector assemblies, coupled with aftermarket NON HALOGEN HID refit kits work as good or better than a system designed FOR HID with HID projectors? Please, I'd like to see hard data on this.
I base my decisions and the MONEY I SPEND on data that is backed up with facts and solid data.
I want OEM quality lighting, not something that is a compromise. What these kits offer is a compromise. If that is what you want to put on your bike, that is your business.
Keep in mind that I am not debating the merits of the systems like Sylvania Xenarc, or the PIAA, Hella, etc complete HID design aux. lights, or systems that replace the entire reflector/projector with a properly designed system. If that is what the group buy was offering, then I would be all over it.
Your replies are tinged with emotion, it seems you are taking my posts personally. I don't have any ties to any company, person or entity I mentioned or cite. I do not, nor have I ever sold lighting products.
Regarding your test, I do look forward to the outcome of your evaluation of the lighting products. That is the whole point of this forum, is it not? To be honest I see a system like this working better on a bike with projector lenses such as the new Kawasaki 1400cc machine. The FJR still uses a lense design that depends on reflectors.
#1 You post "don't be trying to sell a bunch of info that I only read about without the benefit of actual, first hand experience using this technology"
Ok, you assume that I haven't done anything with HID kits, lights, etc you are mistaken. Are you also suggesting that freedom of speech doesn't exist here? Oh, did I login to the EZ board FJR system by mistake?
#2 You state that "there is no substitute for real-world, underway, on-the-road experience with these systems that is, with the kit installed in your motorcycle, and you riding it down the darkest road you can find, and seeing (literally) with your own eyes, THEN you can make a determination for yourself. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.
I disagree. There is no substitute for products designed from the get go, cradle to grave, with the only design goals being that of:
a. the best light output due to integration of proper bulb technology and lense
b. the best quality of construction
c. a warranty that backs up the product for the end user
So far the only products that meet those criteria are:
OEM lighting designed for and delivered with the machine
Aftermarket lighting products that are a direct replacement for NOT ONLY the bulb, but the light refracting/projecting mechanism that throws a usable, non dazzling, legal path of light.
The products offered in these kits, including the group buy offering offer NONE OF THESE benefits.
Where will you be with the HID kit when you can't get the ballast replaced?
The only almost drop in bulb technology out there right now that is better than Halogen using the same lenses as halogen is HIR bulbs. Alas they are not available for H4 housings.
I'm looking forward to a reply based on facts, not opinion, or anecdotal evidence.
Woodstock Posted on Oct 18 2005, 01:12 AM
(never mind)
Warchild Posted on Oct 18 2005, 01:10 AM
QUOTE
After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be.
Well, if you read it on the internet, it must be true.
So I guess you could copy-n-paste this guy's web site to your heart's delight if you want to....
Or..... maybe..... you could listen to those who have been running HIDs in their oh-so flawed factory lamp housings for hundreds of thousands of miles with not a single problem. Guys who know a thing or two about night-riding their motorcycles... veterans of the Endurance Riding community, with years and years and years of actual, underway experience running HIDs.
HID kits in factory reflector housings are "not all its cracked up to be?" Says who.... a self-proclaimed "expert" who sells halogen-only systems? Please.... the dude's a flippin' salesman, for crying out loud! He is no more an "authority" than you, me and the man on the moon. Just because he proclaimed himself an authority on his web site? Where he is sellings his halogen-only wares?! Sorry, but that doesn't mean dick.
But hey, if you're convinced HID is all wrong for you after reading some internet web sites, okay, that's cool. No worries. I don't really care who does or doesn't want to upgrade to HID. Trust me, I don't. And I'm not even selling any competing halogen products. Hell, I'm not even selling these HID kits.
But I did pay almost $300 for the HID kit that is coming by FedEx, and I will install and thoroughly test it out. If I like what I find, I'll share the info with those who are interested. If I don't like it, or don't like aspects about it, I'll be sharing that, too.
But don't don't be trying to sell a bunch of info that you've only read about, without the benefit of actual, first-hand experience using this technology. There is no substitute for real-world, underway, on-the-road experience with these systems; that is, with the kit installed in your motorcycle, and you riding it down the darkest road you can find, and seeing (literally) with your own eyes, THEN you can make a determination for yourself. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 12:44 AM
FYI: More information on the topic at hand.
Here is some EXCELLENT information written by Daniel Stern, he is a very knowledgeable lighting guru who has been a huge influence in the lighting industry for many years now:
"There's a lot of handwringing going on, and there's a lot of poor-quality information getting tossed around in the wake of the announcement that the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA, the agency under DOT charged with setting and enforcing auto safety standards) is cracking down on the importation and sale of HID "retrofit" kits.
First off, yes, there are problems -- some of them very large and literally glaring -- with the US vehicle lighting regulations. The minimum performance standards for headlamps are pathetic, precisely-formed beam patterns are allowed but not required, red rear turn signals are still allowed, side turn signal flashers are still not required, do-nothing "fog lamps" are allowed and unregulated, etc. This is not to say there are no shortcomings in the rest-of-world European ECE regulations -- there are, they're just different shortcomings!
But, contrary to opinion of late, the HID kit crackdown is not occurring because NHTSA's regulations are antiquated. It is not occurring because of a words-based technicality (no filament in an HID burner so HID conversions are automatically out). It is occurring because HID "conversion" kits are, quite simply, the wrong way to do it.
Undoubtedly, those fascinated by the appearance of an HID headlamp (and others) will disagree, but here are the physical facts of the matter:
These products mainly consist of an HID ballast and bulb for "retrofitting" into a halogen headlamp. Often, these products are advertised using the name of a reputable lighting company ("Real Philips kit! Real Osram kit!") to try to give the potential buyer the illusion of security. While some of the components in these kits are sometimes made by the companies mentioned, the components aren't being put to their designed or intended use. Reputable companies like Philips, Osram, Hella, etc. NEVER endorse this kind of "retrofit" usage of their products. Other "retrofits" come from companies generally known for lighting dreck and schlock -- LED-wafer-on-a-bulb-base "retrofits", cheesy little foggy lites, etc. No matter...the problem with HID retrofits isn't a build-quality constraint; it's an optical-physics constraint.
Halogen headlamps and HID headlamps require very different optics to
produce a safe and effective -- not to mention legal anywhere in the world -- beam pattern. How come? Because of the very different characteristics of the two kinds of light source.
A halogen bulb has a cylindrical light source -- the glowing filament. The space immediately surrounding the cylinder of light is completely dark, and so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is along the edges of the cylinder of light. The ends of the filament cylinder fade from bright to dark. An HID bulb has a crescent-shaped light source -- the arc. It's crescent-shaped because as it passes through the space between the two electrodes, its heat causes it to try to rise. The space immediately surrounding the crescent of light glows in layers...the closer to the crescent of light, the brighter the glow. The ends of the arc crescent are the brightest points, and immediately beyond these points is completely dark, so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is at the ends of the crescent of light.
When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the
characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses -- they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.
Now, what about those "retrofits" in which the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't fall into the trap of trying to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff! In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun -- whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light (under the cutoff). And, as with all other automotive lamops (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, etc.
There are more "gotchyas" when pondering halogen-to-HID "retrofits". The only available arc capsules have an axial (fore and aft) arc, but many popular halogen headlamp bulbs, such as 9004, 9007, H3 and H12, use a transverse (side-to-side) and/or offset (not directly in line with the central axis of the headlamp reflector) filament, the position and orientation of which is physically impossible to match with a "retrofit" HID capsule. Just because your headlamp might use an axial-filament bulb, though, doesn't mean you've jumped the hurdles -- the laws of optical physics don't bend even for the cleverest marketing department, nor for the catchiest HID "retrofit" kit box.
The latest gimmick is HID arc capsules set in an electromagnetic base so that they shift up and down or back and forth. These are being marketed as "dual beam" kits that claim to address the loss of high beam with fixed-base "retrofits" in place of dual-filament halogen bulbs. What you wind up with is two poorly-formed beams, at best. The reason the original equipment market has not adopted the movable-capsule designs they've been playing with since the mid 1990s is because of the near-impossibility of controlling the arc position accurately so it winds up in the same position each and every time. There are single-capsule dual-beam systems appearing ("BiXenon", etc.), but these all rely on a movable optical shield, or movable reflector -- the arc capsule always stays in one place.
The OE engineers have a great deal more money and resources at their
disposal than the retrofit guys -- if a movable capsule were a practical way to do the job, they'd do it. The "retrofit" kits *certainly* don't address this problem anywhere near satisfaction. And even if they did, remember: Whether a fixed or moving-capsule "retrofit" is contemplated, solving the arc-position problem and calling it good is like going to a hospital with two broken ribs, a sprained ankle and a crushed toe and having the nurse say "Well, you're free to go home now, we've put your ankle in a sling!" Focal length (arc/filament positioning) is ONE issue out of several.
The most dangerous part of the attempt to "retrofit" Xenon headlamps is that sometimes you get a deceptive and illusory "improvement" in the performance of the headlamp. The performance of the headlamp is perceived to be "better" because of the much higher level of foreground lighting (on the road immediately in front of the car). However, examining isoscans of the beam patterns produced by this kind of "conversion" reveals *less* distance light, and often an alarming relative minimum where there's meant to be a relative maximum in light intensity. When you *think* you can see better than you can, you're *not* safe.
It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong *impression* of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, *worsening* your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".
HID headlamps also require careful weatherproofing and electrical
shielding because of the high voltages involved. These unsafe "retrofits" make it physically possible to insert an HID bulb where a halogen bulb belongs, but this practice is illegal and dangerous, regardless of claims by these marketers that their systems are "beam pattern corrected" or the fraudulent use of established brand names to try to trick you into thinking the product is legitimate. In order to work correctly and safely, HID headlamps must be designed from the start as HID headlamps.
The only safe and legitimate HID retrofit is one that replaces the
*entire* headlamp -- that is lens, reflector, bulb...the WHOLE shemozzle-- with optics designed for HID usage. On models for which no complete HID headlamps exist, it IS possible to get clever with
the growing number of available products, such as Hella's modular
projectors available in HID or halogen, and fabricate your own brackets and bezels, or to modify an original-equipment halogen headlamp housing to contain optical "guts" designed for HID usage. But just putting an HID bulb where a halogen one belongs is bad news all around.
And *that*, folks, is why HID kits are getting targetted for enforcement.
DS"
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 12:32 AM
Hi,
In regards to Daniel Stern, my reference to him was due to his knowledge, not the products that he sells. The man has been saying the same thing even before he was selling any products. You put "expert" in quotations in your reply, but nowhere in my post did I refer to him as that. Have you even read, or researched what he says about lighting products, or are you merely dismissing his information because he sells competing products?
I don't know what an LT is (light truck?) but you are comparing apples and oranges. I'd like to think that ANY vehicle that has lamps that are overdriven at 55MPH has design inefficiencies in the lighting department. You said that with HID and Hella Micros things were more comfortable at the speed you noted. You also lend credence to my thought about having a backup source of light in case one non standard system fails. With the HID kit being touted, if for some reason a dual failure occurs, you are SOL, and in this case there is a GREATER chance of this happening then with the stock halogen lighting system in place.
It is a fact that the HID bulbs last longer than their halogen brethren, that I am not debating. But can you honestly say without there being conclusive, field tested evidence that an HID retrofit, including ballasts, wiring, and HID bulbs will outlast a traditional, proven Halogen bulb?
What I am bringing to light, is adding complexity and MORE POINTS OF FAILURE into an already existing mission critical aspect of the motorcycle.
If the bulb fails, ok no big problem. If the ballast fails, ok, no big problem, but if BOTH were to fail for some odd reason due to the non standard part being installed where does that leave you? That is the difference between halogens and the HID RETROFITS, which is what they are. The halogen bulb only has ONE point of failure assuming the wiring is fine. It's the bulb. With the retrofit kits, you have the ballast, the bulb, the additional wiring, and in the case of the Bi Xenon kit you have the electromagnetic apparatus that moves the beam refractor.
You are definitely very much mistaken with your closing sentence. You are comparing a system referred to as eyes of god to the STOCK halogen reflectors of the FJR or any other vehicle with an aftermarket HID system that has been retrofitted.
Here are the facts, I do not want to repeat them.
Eyes of God product which is the PIAA system that was discussed earlier is a complete, designed from the ground up HID system. The bulbs, the reflectors/projectors, etc were all designed together to be a complete system working together. Now, as a fact that can't be disputed, Yamaha or whoever the OEM is that designed the reflector system in the FJR, designed these specific illumination instruments to work with HALOGEN BULBS!!! NOT HID's. A properly designed HID system, like "Eyes of God" will ALWAYS outperform a reflector system built for Halogen and refitted with HID, which is what is being offered. You will NEVER get the precise lighting characteristics of a designed from the ground up HID system with complentary lenses and bulbs. That just isn't going to happen. It will be a compromise either way you slice it.
Read my post again, and take Daniel Stern out of it and pay attention to what I said.
1. The kit introduces more complexities and points of failure into the stock system. Please refute this statement with facts.
2. The kit replaces the stock Halogen lamps, in a reflector system designed for Halogen lamps with a product that hasn't been designed for that reflector system. This is a fact. It's analagous to banging square pegs into round holes.
S_Palmer Posted on Oct 17 2005, 11:58 PM
QUOTE
Guys, I don't mean to rain on the parade, but after much thought and research, I am going to withdraw my interest in the HID group buy.
QUOTE
1. After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be. I am not going to get into details here, as the information is out there, on both these sources, but I will elaborate if you are all interested.
While I don't claim to be an expert like Daniel Stern, I also don't sell a competing product like he does. I had an HID conversion in my LT the difference was overwhelming. With the stock lighting I wasn't comfortable over about 55, with HID low beam and HElla micros, 90mph through the blackest desert was no problem.
QUOTE
2. It is technically illegal to sell these kits in the United States. I'm not preaching but I have read horror stories where fines and worse happen to the people using these kits. NHTSA has a report about the dazzling effect that HID Capsules have on oncoming traffic while being used in some halogen housings.
I agree on the leagality, however with dozens installed just on the LT list, no tickets.
They can be blinding but are ok IF THEY ARE PROPERLY AIMED.
QUOTE
3. Messing with the ONLY SOURCE of seeing what is in front of me at night is not reassuring to me. What happens if, just by chance due to installation or design, BOTH HID kits installed in my FJR fail, at speed in that corner I am negotiating at night. For me the risks aren't worth the gain, not to mention you have NO LEG to stand on with the manufacturer if such failure were to occur, and you want some legal recourse or at the very least warranty support. What happens if the HID kit decides to fail and you hit another car, or damage someone else, or their property? You can flip flop on pros and cons, but there are risks involved and stacking the deck even more against my favor out on the road, or legally isn't something I'd like to chance. YMMV though!
HIDs have proven to last longer than the halogens that we have all had burn out. I can't see any reason that they are any more likely to both go at once than halogens.
QUOTE
In my humble opinion, and it's just that, I think the way to go is the aux. HID lamps and proper OEM matched projector housings are the way to go.
The down side to this setup is that you lose your HIDs in traffic, you can't use HID driving lights anywhere near another car. This is about the only place I agree with Stern, when you turn off the driving lights and rely on OEM low beams they will seem so dim that you can't see squat untill your eyes adjust.
QUOTE
Daniel Stern is probably one of the most knowledgable individuals next to the OEM's when it comes to vehicle illumination. His points may be sometimes made harshly, but there is truth to his tests and findings.
Just because some "expert" that is selling a competing product says it, don't make it so.
I've ridden behind HIDs and I know what I can see with them. I don't know any one who has tried them that has taken them off their bike.
There is a reason they are refered to as the Eye of God.
Steve
BrunDog Posted on Oct 17 2005, 11:31 PM
QUOTE (Warchild @ Oct 17 2005, 07:44 PM)
He's merely inferring that you obviously can, in fact, afford to wait on the Group Buy, given the rate you tend to accumulate mileage on your bike.
Et tu, Brute?
Besides, I actually have 1400 miles, which is A LOT more than 1350. And my bike may not have as many miles as all of yours, but they were very high quality miles.
As Cartman from Southpark would say, "Screw you guys, and screw you guys".
-BD
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 17 2005, 09:48 PM
Guys, I don't mean to rain on the parade, but after much thought and research, I am going to withdraw my interest in the HID group buy.
These are my reasons:
1. After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be. I am not going to get into details here, as the information is out there, on both these sources, but I will elaborate if you are all interested.
2. It is technically illegal to sell these kits in the United States. I'm not preaching but I have read horror stories where fines and worse happen to the people using these kits. NHTSA has a report about the dazzling effect that HID Capsules have on oncoming traffic while being used in some halogen housings.
3. Messing with the ONLY SOURCE of seeing what is in front of me at night is not reassuring to me. What happens if, just by chance due to installation or design, BOTH HID kits installed in my FJR fail, at speed in that corner I am negotiating at night. For me the risks aren't worth the gain, not to mention you have NO LEG to stand on with the manufacturer if such failure were to occur, and you want some legal recourse or at the very least warranty support. What happens if the HID kit decides to fail and you hit another car, or damage someone else, or their property? You can flip flop on pros and cons, but there are risks involved and stacking the deck even more against my favor out on the road, or legally isn't something I'd like to chance. YMMV though!
In my humble opinion, and it's just that, I think the way to go is the aux. HID lamps and proper OEM matched projector housings are the way to go.
Not only do you have a system designed from the ground up to work hand in hand with each other to provide the BEST results, you always have a backup in case they fail, which are the factory fitted H4 bulbs, which provide hi and low beam EVERY TIME at the flick of a switch, without having to worry about a non proven bi xenon design.
My FJR is fitted with Sylvania Silverstar bulbs, and there are better performing halogens out there like the European OSRAM silverstars and the newly release GE Nighthawk line of halogens, which are supposed to be THE DE FACTO best performing stock wattage lamp out there.
Like I said, I am not trying to be a downer here, I was just surprised nobody brought up the remote chance of a failure during "mission critical" operation.
Please check my sources listed above. The one forum listed is not canon, but all these guys do is test and talk about HID kits, factory installs, etc. Kinda like the bobistheoilguy (www.bobistheoilguy.com) of HID forums. Daniel Stern is probably one of the most knowledgable individuals next to the OEM's when it comes to vehicle illumination. His points may be sometimes made harshly, but there is truth to his tests and findings. He is very approachable via email, and will answer questions you pose for him.
Thoughts? Comments?
This is progressive; it reads from the bottom up:
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 02:23 AM
Here's another 3rd party test with no incentive to steer the public at large in the wrong direction:
Consumer Reports HID test
Pay close attention to these details:
What the law allows. Federal standards allow high beams to throw lots of light far ahead, but limit low-beam levels for oncoming drivers to minimize glare. Carmakers typically channel an HID’s extra light toward the sides to stay within those standards.
Side light has its benefits. "You’re more likely to see objects on the right side of the road," says Mark Rea, director of the Lighting Research Center at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y.
But neither HID nor halogen lights may provide enough light down the road on their low beams, says Michael Flannagan, senior associate research scientist at the University of Michigan’s Transportation Research Institute. "Each year, some 2,300 pedestrians are killed at night in the road, not on the shoulder," says Flannagan, who analyzed 11 years of nationwide crash data to calculate the effect of darkness on pedestrian fatalities. His 2001 study found that pedestrians are killed at four times the rate in darkness as in daylight.
"The farther drivers can see straight ahead on low beams, the better," says Flannagan. We agree. Unfortunately, while many HID lights we tested were among the better performers, even the best didn’t outdistance the best halogens.
What we found. We compared 31 cars and trucks with halogen lights and 10 with HIDs, measuring their ability to light the road ahead and along the sides as well as checking them for glare (see Headlight testing).
Six out of 10 vehicles with HIDs and 9 out of 31 with halogens reached the 400-foot marker on our test course with low beams, compared with an average of 335 feet for all models tested.
The farthest so far: the inexpensive, halogen-equipped Mazda Protegé5. Its low beams illuminated our 600-foot marker without creating a glare problem.
Both types of lights produced our worst performers. The HID-equipped Audi TT’s low beams lit only to our 200-foot marker, while the halogen-equipped Chrysler Sebring and Pontiac Grand Prix provided weak, nonuniform light.
Little room for error. While even 200 feet of lighting may sound like enough, it may not be. Based on typical reaction times and braking distances, drivers traveling at 50 mph need 237 feet to see a pedestrian, hit the brake pedal, and stop in time. Wet or icy roads and higher speeds increase braking distance, while fog, glare, and fatigue reduce visibility.
<END QUOTE>
Keep in mind that ALL THESE VEHICLES were using bulbs and housings designed from the get go to work together, not a mish mash of technologies.
Also, pay special attention to the comments about the low beams! If you replace your H4 bulbs on the FJR with an HID bulb, say bye bye to your high beam.
Saying that HID in a halogen housing produces more useful light without any sort of scientific data to back it up is like me saying I put a new exhaust on my FJR and got 10 more hp because the buttmeter told me so.
Oh and hey WC, see those guys that are tabulating the data? Are those credentials enough for you? I'd much rather believe these guys than some guys out riding their bikes at night for years blah blah blah.
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 02:01 AM
QUOTE (Warchild @ Oct 18 2005, 02:10 AM)
QUOTE
After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be.
Well, if you read it on the internet, it must be true.
So I guess you could copy-n-paste this guy's web site to your heart's delight if you want to....
Or..... maybe..... you could listen to those who have been running HIDs in their oh-so flawed factory lamp housings for hundreds of thousands of miles with not a single problem. Guys who know a thing or two about night-riding their motorcycles... veterans of the Endurance Riding community, with years and years and years of actual, underway experience running HIDs.
HID kits in factory reflector housings are "not all its cracked up to be?" Says who.... a self-proclaimed "expert" who sells halogen-only systems? Please.... the dude's a flippin' salesman, for crying out loud! He is no more an "authority" than you, me and the man on the moon. Just because he proclaimed himself an authority on his web site? Where he is sellings his halogen-only wares?! Sorry, but that doesn't mean dick.
But hey, if you're convinced HID is all wrong for you after reading some internet web sites, okay, that's cool. No worries. I don't really care who does or doesn't want to upgrade to HID. Trust me, I don't. And I'm not even selling any competing halogen products. Hell, I'm not even selling these HID kits.
But I did pay almost $300 for the HID kit that is coming by FedEx, and I will install and thoroughly test it out. If I like what I find, I'll share the info with those who are interested. If I don't like it, or don't like aspects about it, I'll be sharing that, too.
But don't don't be trying to sell a bunch of info that you've only read about, without the benefit of actual, first-hand experience using this technology. There is no substitute for real-world, underway, on-the-road experience with these systems; that is, with the kit installed in your motorcycle, and you riding it down the darkest road you can find, and seeing (literally) with your own eyes, THEN you can make a determination for yourself. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.
Ok, we can play this game.
#1 Do you design headlamp systems?
#2 Can you disagree with the fact that HID bulbs were not designed to be in Halogen reflectors/projectors/housings.
#3 I sure as hell know that not everything on the Internet is not true. That's pretty condescending, but hey, it's your playpen. I am providing information that will and can help the people in this forum make an informed decision as to how they may spend their money.
#4 I did not copy and paste the website, and not once has ANYONE refuted what I posted other than replying with anecdotal evidence, including you.
#5 I don't have to listen to guys who have been "running HIDs in their oh-so flawed factory lamp housings for hundreds of thousands of miles without a single problem" Show me the facts and I will start listening. This is still an anecdotal rebuttal on your part. Oh, and NOT ONCE did I say that the factory lamp housings were flawed. You are putting words in MY mouth. Go RE READ my posts. I am saying that THE FACTORY HOUSINGS WERE NOT DESIGNED FOR HID BULBS. How can you with a straight face reply to me and say that this is not true, or that the results you get are NOT AS GOOD AS A SYSTEM DESIGNED WITH HOUSING FOR AND WORKING WITH HID BULBS.
Are you HONESTLY saying that the STOCK factory reflector assemblies, coupled with aftermarket NON HALOGEN HID refit kits work as good or better than a system designed FOR HID with HID projectors? Please, I'd like to see hard data on this.
I base my decisions and the MONEY I SPEND on data that is backed up with facts and solid data.
I want OEM quality lighting, not something that is a compromise. What these kits offer is a compromise. If that is what you want to put on your bike, that is your business.
Keep in mind that I am not debating the merits of the systems like Sylvania Xenarc, or the PIAA, Hella, etc complete HID design aux. lights, or systems that replace the entire reflector/projector with a properly designed system. If that is what the group buy was offering, then I would be all over it.
Your replies are tinged with emotion, it seems you are taking my posts personally. I don't have any ties to any company, person or entity I mentioned or cite. I do not, nor have I ever sold lighting products.
Regarding your test, I do look forward to the outcome of your evaluation of the lighting products. That is the whole point of this forum, is it not? To be honest I see a system like this working better on a bike with projector lenses such as the new Kawasaki 1400cc machine. The FJR still uses a lense design that depends on reflectors.
#1 You post "don't be trying to sell a bunch of info that I only read about without the benefit of actual, first hand experience using this technology"
Ok, you assume that I haven't done anything with HID kits, lights, etc you are mistaken. Are you also suggesting that freedom of speech doesn't exist here? Oh, did I login to the EZ board FJR system by mistake?
#2 You state that "there is no substitute for real-world, underway, on-the-road experience with these systems that is, with the kit installed in your motorcycle, and you riding it down the darkest road you can find, and seeing (literally) with your own eyes, THEN you can make a determination for yourself. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.
I disagree. There is no substitute for products designed from the get go, cradle to grave, with the only design goals being that of:
a. the best light output due to integration of proper bulb technology and lense
b. the best quality of construction
c. a warranty that backs up the product for the end user
So far the only products that meet those criteria are:
OEM lighting designed for and delivered with the machine
Aftermarket lighting products that are a direct replacement for NOT ONLY the bulb, but the light refracting/projecting mechanism that throws a usable, non dazzling, legal path of light.
The products offered in these kits, including the group buy offering offer NONE OF THESE benefits.
Where will you be with the HID kit when you can't get the ballast replaced?
The only almost drop in bulb technology out there right now that is better than Halogen using the same lenses as halogen is HIR bulbs. Alas they are not available for H4 housings.
I'm looking forward to a reply based on facts, not opinion, or anecdotal evidence.
Woodstock Posted on Oct 18 2005, 01:12 AM
(never mind)
Warchild Posted on Oct 18 2005, 01:10 AM
QUOTE
After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be.
Well, if you read it on the internet, it must be true.
So I guess you could copy-n-paste this guy's web site to your heart's delight if you want to....
Or..... maybe..... you could listen to those who have been running HIDs in their oh-so flawed factory lamp housings for hundreds of thousands of miles with not a single problem. Guys who know a thing or two about night-riding their motorcycles... veterans of the Endurance Riding community, with years and years and years of actual, underway experience running HIDs.
HID kits in factory reflector housings are "not all its cracked up to be?" Says who.... a self-proclaimed "expert" who sells halogen-only systems? Please.... the dude's a flippin' salesman, for crying out loud! He is no more an "authority" than you, me and the man on the moon. Just because he proclaimed himself an authority on his web site? Where he is sellings his halogen-only wares?! Sorry, but that doesn't mean dick.
But hey, if you're convinced HID is all wrong for you after reading some internet web sites, okay, that's cool. No worries. I don't really care who does or doesn't want to upgrade to HID. Trust me, I don't. And I'm not even selling any competing halogen products. Hell, I'm not even selling these HID kits.
But I did pay almost $300 for the HID kit that is coming by FedEx, and I will install and thoroughly test it out. If I like what I find, I'll share the info with those who are interested. If I don't like it, or don't like aspects about it, I'll be sharing that, too.
But don't don't be trying to sell a bunch of info that you've only read about, without the benefit of actual, first-hand experience using this technology. There is no substitute for real-world, underway, on-the-road experience with these systems; that is, with the kit installed in your motorcycle, and you riding it down the darkest road you can find, and seeing (literally) with your own eyes, THEN you can make a determination for yourself. Anything else is pure speculation, at best.
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 12:44 AM
FYI: More information on the topic at hand.
Here is some EXCELLENT information written by Daniel Stern, he is a very knowledgeable lighting guru who has been a huge influence in the lighting industry for many years now:
"There's a lot of handwringing going on, and there's a lot of poor-quality information getting tossed around in the wake of the announcement that the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA, the agency under DOT charged with setting and enforcing auto safety standards) is cracking down on the importation and sale of HID "retrofit" kits.
First off, yes, there are problems -- some of them very large and literally glaring -- with the US vehicle lighting regulations. The minimum performance standards for headlamps are pathetic, precisely-formed beam patterns are allowed but not required, red rear turn signals are still allowed, side turn signal flashers are still not required, do-nothing "fog lamps" are allowed and unregulated, etc. This is not to say there are no shortcomings in the rest-of-world European ECE regulations -- there are, they're just different shortcomings!
But, contrary to opinion of late, the HID kit crackdown is not occurring because NHTSA's regulations are antiquated. It is not occurring because of a words-based technicality (no filament in an HID burner so HID conversions are automatically out). It is occurring because HID "conversion" kits are, quite simply, the wrong way to do it.
Undoubtedly, those fascinated by the appearance of an HID headlamp (and others) will disagree, but here are the physical facts of the matter:
These products mainly consist of an HID ballast and bulb for "retrofitting" into a halogen headlamp. Often, these products are advertised using the name of a reputable lighting company ("Real Philips kit! Real Osram kit!") to try to give the potential buyer the illusion of security. While some of the components in these kits are sometimes made by the companies mentioned, the components aren't being put to their designed or intended use. Reputable companies like Philips, Osram, Hella, etc. NEVER endorse this kind of "retrofit" usage of their products. Other "retrofits" come from companies generally known for lighting dreck and schlock -- LED-wafer-on-a-bulb-base "retrofits", cheesy little foggy lites, etc. No matter...the problem with HID retrofits isn't a build-quality constraint; it's an optical-physics constraint.
Halogen headlamps and HID headlamps require very different optics to
produce a safe and effective -- not to mention legal anywhere in the world -- beam pattern. How come? Because of the very different characteristics of the two kinds of light source.
A halogen bulb has a cylindrical light source -- the glowing filament. The space immediately surrounding the cylinder of light is completely dark, and so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is along the edges of the cylinder of light. The ends of the filament cylinder fade from bright to dark. An HID bulb has a crescent-shaped light source -- the arc. It's crescent-shaped because as it passes through the space between the two electrodes, its heat causes it to try to rise. The space immediately surrounding the crescent of light glows in layers...the closer to the crescent of light, the brighter the glow. The ends of the arc crescent are the brightest points, and immediately beyond these points is completely dark, so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is at the ends of the crescent of light.
When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the
characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses -- they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.
Now, what about those "retrofits" in which the beam cutoff still appears sharp? Don't fall into the trap of trying to judge a beam pattern solely by its cutoff! In many lamps, especially the projector types, the cutoff will remain the same regardless of what light source is behind it. Halogen bulb, HID capsule, cigarette lighter, firefly, hold it up to the sun -- whatever. That's because of the way a projector lamp works. The cutoff is simply the projected image of a piece of metal running side-to-side behind the lens. Where the optics come in is in distributing the light (under the cutoff). And, as with all other automotive lamops (and, in fact, all optical instruments), the optics are calculated based not just on where the light source is within the lamp (focal length) but also the specific photometric characteristics of the light source...which parts of it are brighter, which parts of it are darker, where the boundaries of the light source are, whether the boundaries are sharp or fuzzy, the shape of the light source, etc.
There are more "gotchyas" when pondering halogen-to-HID "retrofits". The only available arc capsules have an axial (fore and aft) arc, but many popular halogen headlamp bulbs, such as 9004, 9007, H3 and H12, use a transverse (side-to-side) and/or offset (not directly in line with the central axis of the headlamp reflector) filament, the position and orientation of which is physically impossible to match with a "retrofit" HID capsule. Just because your headlamp might use an axial-filament bulb, though, doesn't mean you've jumped the hurdles -- the laws of optical physics don't bend even for the cleverest marketing department, nor for the catchiest HID "retrofit" kit box.
The latest gimmick is HID arc capsules set in an electromagnetic base so that they shift up and down or back and forth. These are being marketed as "dual beam" kits that claim to address the loss of high beam with fixed-base "retrofits" in place of dual-filament halogen bulbs. What you wind up with is two poorly-formed beams, at best. The reason the original equipment market has not adopted the movable-capsule designs they've been playing with since the mid 1990s is because of the near-impossibility of controlling the arc position accurately so it winds up in the same position each and every time. There are single-capsule dual-beam systems appearing ("BiXenon", etc.), but these all rely on a movable optical shield, or movable reflector -- the arc capsule always stays in one place.
The OE engineers have a great deal more money and resources at their
disposal than the retrofit guys -- if a movable capsule were a practical way to do the job, they'd do it. The "retrofit" kits *certainly* don't address this problem anywhere near satisfaction. And even if they did, remember: Whether a fixed or moving-capsule "retrofit" is contemplated, solving the arc-position problem and calling it good is like going to a hospital with two broken ribs, a sprained ankle and a crushed toe and having the nurse say "Well, you're free to go home now, we've put your ankle in a sling!" Focal length (arc/filament positioning) is ONE issue out of several.
The most dangerous part of the attempt to "retrofit" Xenon headlamps is that sometimes you get a deceptive and illusory "improvement" in the performance of the headlamp. The performance of the headlamp is perceived to be "better" because of the much higher level of foreground lighting (on the road immediately in front of the car). However, examining isoscans of the beam patterns produced by this kind of "conversion" reveals *less* distance light, and often an alarming relative minimum where there's meant to be a relative maximum in light intensity. When you *think* you can see better than you can, you're *not* safe.
It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong *impression* of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, *worsening* your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".
HID headlamps also require careful weatherproofing and electrical
shielding because of the high voltages involved. These unsafe "retrofits" make it physically possible to insert an HID bulb where a halogen bulb belongs, but this practice is illegal and dangerous, regardless of claims by these marketers that their systems are "beam pattern corrected" or the fraudulent use of established brand names to try to trick you into thinking the product is legitimate. In order to work correctly and safely, HID headlamps must be designed from the start as HID headlamps.
The only safe and legitimate HID retrofit is one that replaces the
*entire* headlamp -- that is lens, reflector, bulb...the WHOLE shemozzle-- with optics designed for HID usage. On models for which no complete HID headlamps exist, it IS possible to get clever with
the growing number of available products, such as Hella's modular
projectors available in HID or halogen, and fabricate your own brackets and bezels, or to modify an original-equipment halogen headlamp housing to contain optical "guts" designed for HID usage. But just putting an HID bulb where a halogen one belongs is bad news all around.
And *that*, folks, is why HID kits are getting targetted for enforcement.
DS"
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 18 2005, 12:32 AM
Hi,
In regards to Daniel Stern, my reference to him was due to his knowledge, not the products that he sells. The man has been saying the same thing even before he was selling any products. You put "expert" in quotations in your reply, but nowhere in my post did I refer to him as that. Have you even read, or researched what he says about lighting products, or are you merely dismissing his information because he sells competing products?
I don't know what an LT is (light truck?) but you are comparing apples and oranges. I'd like to think that ANY vehicle that has lamps that are overdriven at 55MPH has design inefficiencies in the lighting department. You said that with HID and Hella Micros things were more comfortable at the speed you noted. You also lend credence to my thought about having a backup source of light in case one non standard system fails. With the HID kit being touted, if for some reason a dual failure occurs, you are SOL, and in this case there is a GREATER chance of this happening then with the stock halogen lighting system in place.
It is a fact that the HID bulbs last longer than their halogen brethren, that I am not debating. But can you honestly say without there being conclusive, field tested evidence that an HID retrofit, including ballasts, wiring, and HID bulbs will outlast a traditional, proven Halogen bulb?
What I am bringing to light, is adding complexity and MORE POINTS OF FAILURE into an already existing mission critical aspect of the motorcycle.
If the bulb fails, ok no big problem. If the ballast fails, ok, no big problem, but if BOTH were to fail for some odd reason due to the non standard part being installed where does that leave you? That is the difference between halogens and the HID RETROFITS, which is what they are. The halogen bulb only has ONE point of failure assuming the wiring is fine. It's the bulb. With the retrofit kits, you have the ballast, the bulb, the additional wiring, and in the case of the Bi Xenon kit you have the electromagnetic apparatus that moves the beam refractor.
You are definitely very much mistaken with your closing sentence. You are comparing a system referred to as eyes of god to the STOCK halogen reflectors of the FJR or any other vehicle with an aftermarket HID system that has been retrofitted.
Here are the facts, I do not want to repeat them.
Eyes of God product which is the PIAA system that was discussed earlier is a complete, designed from the ground up HID system. The bulbs, the reflectors/projectors, etc were all designed together to be a complete system working together. Now, as a fact that can't be disputed, Yamaha or whoever the OEM is that designed the reflector system in the FJR, designed these specific illumination instruments to work with HALOGEN BULBS!!! NOT HID's. A properly designed HID system, like "Eyes of God" will ALWAYS outperform a reflector system built for Halogen and refitted with HID, which is what is being offered. You will NEVER get the precise lighting characteristics of a designed from the ground up HID system with complentary lenses and bulbs. That just isn't going to happen. It will be a compromise either way you slice it.
Read my post again, and take Daniel Stern out of it and pay attention to what I said.
1. The kit introduces more complexities and points of failure into the stock system. Please refute this statement with facts.
2. The kit replaces the stock Halogen lamps, in a reflector system designed for Halogen lamps with a product that hasn't been designed for that reflector system. This is a fact. It's analagous to banging square pegs into round holes.
S_Palmer Posted on Oct 17 2005, 11:58 PM
QUOTE
Guys, I don't mean to rain on the parade, but after much thought and research, I am going to withdraw my interest in the HID group buy.
QUOTE
1. After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be. I am not going to get into details here, as the information is out there, on both these sources, but I will elaborate if you are all interested.
While I don't claim to be an expert like Daniel Stern, I also don't sell a competing product like he does. I had an HID conversion in my LT the difference was overwhelming. With the stock lighting I wasn't comfortable over about 55, with HID low beam and HElla micros, 90mph through the blackest desert was no problem.
QUOTE
2. It is technically illegal to sell these kits in the United States. I'm not preaching but I have read horror stories where fines and worse happen to the people using these kits. NHTSA has a report about the dazzling effect that HID Capsules have on oncoming traffic while being used in some halogen housings.
I agree on the leagality, however with dozens installed just on the LT list, no tickets.
They can be blinding but are ok IF THEY ARE PROPERLY AIMED.
QUOTE
3. Messing with the ONLY SOURCE of seeing what is in front of me at night is not reassuring to me. What happens if, just by chance due to installation or design, BOTH HID kits installed in my FJR fail, at speed in that corner I am negotiating at night. For me the risks aren't worth the gain, not to mention you have NO LEG to stand on with the manufacturer if such failure were to occur, and you want some legal recourse or at the very least warranty support. What happens if the HID kit decides to fail and you hit another car, or damage someone else, or their property? You can flip flop on pros and cons, but there are risks involved and stacking the deck even more against my favor out on the road, or legally isn't something I'd like to chance. YMMV though!
HIDs have proven to last longer than the halogens that we have all had burn out. I can't see any reason that they are any more likely to both go at once than halogens.
QUOTE
In my humble opinion, and it's just that, I think the way to go is the aux. HID lamps and proper OEM matched projector housings are the way to go.
The down side to this setup is that you lose your HIDs in traffic, you can't use HID driving lights anywhere near another car. This is about the only place I agree with Stern, when you turn off the driving lights and rely on OEM low beams they will seem so dim that you can't see squat untill your eyes adjust.
QUOTE
Daniel Stern is probably one of the most knowledgable individuals next to the OEM's when it comes to vehicle illumination. His points may be sometimes made harshly, but there is truth to his tests and findings.
Just because some "expert" that is selling a competing product says it, don't make it so.
I've ridden behind HIDs and I know what I can see with them. I don't know any one who has tried them that has taken them off their bike.
There is a reason they are refered to as the Eye of God.
Steve
BrunDog Posted on Oct 17 2005, 11:31 PM
QUOTE (Warchild @ Oct 17 2005, 07:44 PM)
He's merely inferring that you obviously can, in fact, afford to wait on the Group Buy, given the rate you tend to accumulate mileage on your bike.
Et tu, Brute?
Besides, I actually have 1400 miles, which is A LOT more than 1350. And my bike may not have as many miles as all of yours, but they were very high quality miles.
As Cartman from Southpark would say, "Screw you guys, and screw you guys".
-BD
XJRGUY Posted on Oct 17 2005, 09:48 PM
Guys, I don't mean to rain on the parade, but after much thought and research, I am going to withdraw my interest in the HID group buy.
These are my reasons:
1. After checking out a couple forums like www.hidforum.com and reading up on some topics posted by illumination experts such as Daniel Stern lighting I've come to the conclusion that refitting HID bulbs into Halogen housings is not all its cracked up to be. I am not going to get into details here, as the information is out there, on both these sources, but I will elaborate if you are all interested.
2. It is technically illegal to sell these kits in the United States. I'm not preaching but I have read horror stories where fines and worse happen to the people using these kits. NHTSA has a report about the dazzling effect that HID Capsules have on oncoming traffic while being used in some halogen housings.
3. Messing with the ONLY SOURCE of seeing what is in front of me at night is not reassuring to me. What happens if, just by chance due to installation or design, BOTH HID kits installed in my FJR fail, at speed in that corner I am negotiating at night. For me the risks aren't worth the gain, not to mention you have NO LEG to stand on with the manufacturer if such failure were to occur, and you want some legal recourse or at the very least warranty support. What happens if the HID kit decides to fail and you hit another car, or damage someone else, or their property? You can flip flop on pros and cons, but there are risks involved and stacking the deck even more against my favor out on the road, or legally isn't something I'd like to chance. YMMV though!
In my humble opinion, and it's just that, I think the way to go is the aux. HID lamps and proper OEM matched projector housings are the way to go.
Not only do you have a system designed from the ground up to work hand in hand with each other to provide the BEST results, you always have a backup in case they fail, which are the factory fitted H4 bulbs, which provide hi and low beam EVERY TIME at the flick of a switch, without having to worry about a non proven bi xenon design.
My FJR is fitted with Sylvania Silverstar bulbs, and there are better performing halogens out there like the European OSRAM silverstars and the newly release GE Nighthawk line of halogens, which are supposed to be THE DE FACTO best performing stock wattage lamp out there.
Like I said, I am not trying to be a downer here, I was just surprised nobody brought up the remote chance of a failure during "mission critical" operation.
Please check my sources listed above. The one forum listed is not canon, but all these guys do is test and talk about HID kits, factory installs, etc. Kinda like the bobistheoilguy (www.bobistheoilguy.com) of HID forums. Daniel Stern is probably one of the most knowledgable individuals next to the OEM's when it comes to vehicle illumination. His points may be sometimes made harshly, but there is truth to his tests and findings. He is very approachable via email, and will answer questions you pose for him.
Thoughts? Comments?
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