2008 ticking and loss of power after TBS and basic maintenance

[Mr. Long]

This is my wife's bike.

Purchased from dealer a few months ago (no maintenance records from previous owner other than that the oil had been changed before the trade-in)

Runs great, other than needing a TBS.

2008

30,000 miles

stock air filter

Two Brothers exhaust

PCIII

O2 sensor disconnected

After lots of reading and lurking on the forum (my experience is with v-twins), I finally decided it was time to get a baseline maintenance schedule established.

Last night I did the following:

-Oil change with Rotella T6 5W-40 synthetic + K&N oil filter

The old oil still looked good, confirming that the previous owner had indeed changed it. Old filter was a Fram.

-Final drive oil change with Mobile 1 75W-90 synthetic.

Oil came out looking clean, but the drain plug had about a 1/8" of gray sludge on it.

-Removed the tank so it was easier to see everything.

-Removed the AIS and replaced with Dave's sexy block-off plates.

-Capped the airbox port with a short piece of hose and a plastic cap.

-Replaced the stock CR8E plugs with CR8EIX.

The old ones

(Starts with #1 on the left)

-Pulled the air filter.

Looked fine other than some slight discoloration and some dust, so I hit it gently with the air compressor and reinstalled.

-TBS

Here's the sync tool I'm using. Easy to use.

Hooked up the hoses and then reconnected the tank (propped it up)

Upon startup, the engine immediately started to make a ticking sound every few seconds or so.

Sounded exactly like my Raider exhaust ticking as it cools.

It was perfectly audible over the sound of the bike in the garage.

The bike also hesitated when I blipped the throttle.

It even turned off a couple of times.

Thinking that the pump might be starving for fuel (the tank was already on reserve) I held the tank down low, and it seemed to help, but not completely.

At that point, I decided to go ahead with the TBS.

Initial readings.

#2 was about an inch lower than 3.

After syncing everything to #3, readings were level across the board and the bike ran smooth (other than the strange ticking sound).

I buttoned everything up and rode the bike a couple of miles to a gas station to fill up.

The bike was still fast, but the throttle response was definitely worse. It would lag and then ramp up the RPM.

Power delivery not smooth like before.

I got back home and it was too late (for me) to determine which change(s) caused the issue, so I decided to hit the sack since I had today off.

My wife was already sound asleep anyway.

So this morning, my wife decides she wants to ride to work.

Yes, you can slap me around for being evil, but I decided to let her ride her bike to see if she would notice the changes (I only told her I tuned up the bike)

About an hour later, while I'm already writing this post, I get an angry call from my wife.

Wife: "Put her back the way she was!"

Me: What do you mean?

Wife: "Sassy" has no sass. Her throttle response is terrible, she idles low, and she wants to shut off when I stop at a light!"

So now I'm heading downtown to her work to swap bikes and bring Sassy back home to troubleshoot.

The first thing I'm going to do is pull the irridiums and clean and reinstall the stock plugs.

Any other ideas while I'm out?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Spud]

I'll leave the real answers to the experts, but....

Those plugs to me don't look good--even if they're stock at 30K miles. I wonder if the PCIII is making it run a little rich....

 

[Fred W]

I do not see anything that you did that looks like it could have caused the new symptoms, unless maybe one of the plugs you put in were no good. I agree with Spud's assessment of the rich looking plugs, but that should not have changed when you did the service.

Out of curiosity, what type of TBS did you do? Not that it will fix this problem, but you may want to consider doing the RDCUA TBS I documented a while back. Many folks have reported their bikes run a lot better after adjusting the throttle plates and not just the air bypass screws at idle, like the standard TBS does.

 

[ionbeam]

I'll mention that a plug cap not tightly pushed down, or a plug wire that separated inside the cap during the cap removal will make a ticking noise each time the plug fires. You can use a diAG code to fire the coils to verify or not if it's high voltage ticking you hear.

 

[blassoff]

Leave the Iridiums in place but double-check that they're seated properly. Check the PAIR plates, make sure they're all snug. Check the air box, make sure there's no air leak. Check to make sure the vacuum caps are back in place.

The last time I screwed up my bike, I think I slipped a tooth on the timing belt (CCT replacement), and that made the throttle response really lag and feel underpowered.

Can't help with the ticking. From your symptoms, it sounds like the timing might be off.

Any chance you worked on something not listed above?

 

[Bounce]

Can't say about the ticking but the low idle is an easy fix and should have been reset after the TBS. That being reset may address the want to stall at idle.

 

[Fred W]

I thought of the timing being off, but that should not happen unless he slackened the timing chain, which he doesn't mention any need to do. The ticking noise being from a misfiring plug/wire has some merit. Maybe chase that ticking noise down will bring you to the root cause

 

[ionbeam]

Another quick thought, the iridium plug tips are very easy to damage so it's not recommended to check the plug gap. We have had other Fourmites in the past break the insulator and a plug tip. If the gap wasn't checked, never mind, it just eliminates one other possibility.

-Replaced the stock CR8E plugs with CR8EIX...

....-TBS
Here's the sync tool I'm using. Easy to use.
Hooked up the hoses and then reconnected the tank (propped it up)

Upon startup, the engine immediately started to make a ticking sound every few seconds or so.
Sounded exactly like my Raider exhaust ticking as it cools.
It was perfectly audible over the sound of the bike in the garage.

The bike also hesitated when I blipped the throttle.
It even turned off a couple of times....

Ran fine, changed the plugs, didn't run fine. What was the last thing you touched

A lean misfire can be occasional and make a ticking sound too. Can you confirm that the PC III had a good ground? The PC III can cause a lot of issues if it isn't 100%.

The PC III in my '04 made my plugs look just like the ones the OP took out.

 

[08FJR4ME]

I have been running a PCIII since new. I have never seen plugs that bad on my bike. I run the stock map that comes with the PCIII. I am wondering if it is a pinched gas hose. Dropping presure when under throttle engagement.

JMT,

Dave

 

[grumpypoo]

I'm gonna jump on the band wagon of plugs.

1. Did you check the gap?

The reason I ask this is because when I changed mine the gap was entirely way to short. Started the bike and it ran like piss.

2. Did you plug everything in the gas tank tight?

The reason I ask is because I did not and of course the bike ran like piss

3. Do the little nipple caps have any cracks?

You'll be surprised how shitty the bike will run without those damn caps. Learnt this lesson the hard way of course.

As far as ticking? I think it's missing and not ticking. At least I hope. Maybe an audio upload would help me understand your issue better.

 

[ionbeam]

I'm gonna jump on the band wagon of plugs.
1. Did you check the gap?

The reason I ask this is because when I changed mine the gap was entirely way to short. Started the bike and it ran like piss.

Please refer back to the first line in post #8. If you bought plugs with a recommended number they should have come gapped pretty close to the recommended space. I have a gapping tool which only contacts the side electrode and not the tip which is preferred for iridium plugs if you must gap them.

I think the OP has disappeared or is working on a very relaxed time table

 

[grumpypoo]

Please refer back to the first line in post #8.

I should probably read the entire thread sorry ionbeam

 

[ionbeam]

Please refer back to the first line in post #8.

I should probably read the entire thread

sorry ionbeam

No apology needed, this is a self-help group (how ever disabled it may play out sometimes). What you suggested would normally be a good idea. A plug gap being too small normally shouldn't be an issue almost to the point of where the side electrode touches the center electrode, there would just be some problem with top end power. A gap being significantly too large does indeed cause issues, including the intake swirl blowing out the spark.

Iridium plugs aren't like the typical plugs and can be hurt easily and have been hurt leaving one Forum member fishing for broken bits of the electrode shell in his cylinder before a valve tried to eat it or before little hard pieces became jammed between the piston and the cylinder wall.

 

[Mr. Long]

Sorry for disappearing!
Wife and I did a quick getaway weekend to West Palm Beach on the bikes, including our first RTE in Sebring with other FJR owners.
I hadn't had a chance to jump back in here.
Thanks to a forum member for the IM to remind me. hehe

So the bike is running better, but I still have concerns.
Taking everyone's suggestions into account, I did the following last Friday afternoon...

Pulled the iridiums and put the stock (cleaned) plugs back in (in the same order as they were removed).
Verified that the plug wires were on nice and tight, the AIS caps were tight, four vacuum nipples were installed, and air box was capped.
(didn't adjust the idle, yet)
Started the bike.
No change from before.

Here's a short video clip. The ticking (sounds like a metallic squeak almost to me) is audible right at the beginning. It's hard to isolate the sound when filming with my phone, but the ticking is very audible (at least to me) from the header, where it meets at the collector. I can also hear it very well over the idle when standing away from the bike.

 

[900gc]

Not sure about the ticking but I do know about PCIII maps. IF the map you have is the 2 Bros. one, it's too rich overall. I have Remus slip ons and an opened up air box with OEM filter. I've tried many of the available maps and was not totally satisfied with any of them so I ended up with two maps that I merged and then tweaked a bunch of the cells on top of that. It was easy to do, just time consuming. If you are happy enough now with how it runs now then leave it, but from my experience, a map that's tuned just right for your bike can and does make it run even better.

 

[Fred W]

OK, sounds like the plug swap was what got back your power.

Did you look at the RDCUA TBS procedure that I linked to above? I'm assuming from your posts that you are just adjusting the air screws and have not adjusted (or checked) the throttle plates yet. Even if you do not want to adjust them, you can close down all 4 air screws fully and check what the vacuum balance looks like without any bypass air.

The bike won't idle well with them all closed down because of the loss of that bypass air so you'll have to hold the throttle open a little bit. A throttle lock or tywrap around the grip works well for that. Ideally you want them to be balanced at idle, and as you open the throttles a little stay balanced. If you do decide to adjust the throttle plate screws, do it with the air screws fully closed, then after you are happy with the balance open each of the 4 air bypass screws the same amount (about 1 turn or so) after which the bike should idle normally, and then rebalance using the air screws at idle. You can open all 4 air screws more or less to put the idle speed adjuster in the middle of its range at 1100 rpm.

When adjusting the air screws make note of any that do not seem to move the vacuum as much as the others. You may have some gook in the air passage of that TB. If you find one like that you can remove the air screw (watch out for the little parts inside) and shoot some carb cleaner into the hole to try and clean it out. This has worked for some folks in the past. Otherwise it is a TB removal, which is a PITA job

I have noticed on my old 1st Gen that the idle gets noticeably lumpier at higher idle speed (1200 rpm) than it does at the low end (1000). I used to leave it at 1100 and just live with a slightly surging idle. It doesn't affect how it runs at normal rpm.

edit - Just watched your video and realized two things. One... you idle sounds 100% normal and I do not hear any ticking noises that you are worried about. Sounds like a normal engine to me, and the idle is actually relatively steady.

Two... This is on a 2nd Gen, so the idle adjuster works differently. For some reason, even though you reported it being an '08 from the beginning, I was thinking you were working on a 1st Gen. The 1st Gens idle adjuster is just a variable throttle stop screw at the end of the adjuster cable. On a 2nd Gen the idle adjuster knob and cable go to another air bypass path. After the variable orifice of the adjuster it splits 4 ways and goes to the 4 TBs. You may have some blockage or leaks in the vacuum hoses that go between the adjuster and the TBs. That might explain all of you variable sync and idle speed observations.

If you decide to do the RDCUA TBS, you can adjust the idle knob to the fully closed (minimum idle speed) position while adjusting the linkages to the throttle plates, then open it up to the middle of its range before you open all 4 air screws the same amount, and then adjust all 4 air screws together until you get close to 1100 rpm. Then finally just touch up the air screws to balance all 4. That way you will adjust out any imbalance of the idle adjuster air flow with the air screws.

One last thing... There is no magic to adjusting the balance to #3. Just close down any that have lower vacuum than the others and open up any that are too high.