Appropriate to counsel other riders how to dress appropriately?

[James Burleigh]

I just read in the July issue of San Francisco's CityBike magazine ("Ride Fast, Take Chances") the preliminary results of a new motorcycle accident study. One result is that:

"2.5% of crashes in full-face helmets result in a fatality, but that rate more than doubles if you're wearing a novelty helmet, to 5.8%. Similarly, 28.6% of crashes where the rider was wearing a novelty helmet resulted in a head injury, compared to just 1% for full-face helmet wearers. We may need to modify the Official CityBike Position Statement on Helmet Use from 'wear a f**king helmet' to 'wear an actual f**king helmet.'"

Later in the same issue, columnist Maynard Hershon struggles with how to advise a girl rider who is wearing a tank top and shorts about risk and proper gear, concluding,

"If you know a way to explain to a young rider that things do indeed happen, that they happen suddenly and often in ways we cannot prevent, and that those things can have life-changing results, write me and tell me how."

I find that my attitude about this has changed. I think riders, from Mr. Harley Stereotype to Miss Scooter-Riding College Student all know that if they hit a stationary object or slide along the ground, they're gonna be f**ked. So I find that I not only don't suggest to people what they ought to be wearing, but also don't give a damn what they're wearing.

The only material difference for me "as a rider" regarding what you wear is that I won't ride with you if you dress like you're going out to play croquette, because in my mind you are obviously less interested in motorcycle safety than I am, so how do I know you won't f**k me over.

My position I think is summed up in this conclusion to the article I published last year in Friction Zone magazine:

"...riders make their choices [about how to gear up] based on their own unique objectives as to why they ride and on their attitudes toward risk, both which may be very different than another rider's. Their choices are no better or worse--just different. At the same time, we can recognize that some riders' choices may be based on an incomplete understanding of the risks inherent in riding...."

Do some riders have a duty to inform other riders (who are strangers to them) about the "dangers" of motorcycle riding and how to "properly" gear up? When is such advice appropriate? When not? (I'm guessing the societal "economic" argument, regarding what it costs society to fix you up and feed you through a straw the rest of your life, is specious, the speciousness of which could be proven by our lack of interest in that argument for a billion other issues.)

 

[steveoreno]

I only offer up an opinion if asked unless it's a family member then I will offer my totally unsolicited opinion whether they like it or not.

 

[ionbeam]

Here in the land of "Live Free or Die" (hey, it's on our license plate) we are free to wear no helmet and no gear. Many if not most don't. When my wife and I watch a helmetless rider in a tank top, shorts and sneakers drive by our only comment is to each other, "There goes another organ donor."

Actually, over the last few years this discussion has frequently happened in reverse. I have other riders come up to me and ask how I could possibly dress the way I do. I regularly have 'naked' riders come over and ask ME how I could possibly wear all that stuff and comment that I must be really hot. When I tell them that it is mesh and air flows right through and when I'm moving it's like wearing a regular tee shirt they say, well maybe....but they walk away commenting that they would never, ever dress like that. Hmmm, good luck with that.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

You may be able to fix ignorant. You can not fix stupid.

I ride with two cousins who will not wear full riding gear. They just won't. One of them spent 6 days in ICU after crashing his Harley. He knows for a fact that he would have died if he had not been wearing a full face helmet that morning (cold and raining) but still wears a half helmet because it looks better. When I ride with them my pace and my attitude is different.

I 100% agree with your thoughts on not wanting to ride with someone who does not wear proper gear. I take that as an obvious warning that 1) They are not as serious about their skills and safety as I am. 2) They are not going to enjoy riding the way I want to ride.

I have in the past and probably will in the future ridden with rookies to try to set a proper example. I don't think it has ever worked.

 

[Top_Speed1]

I've preached to my g/f about ATGATT. Others have as well (but not Fred W yet) and some have even shown her images of brutal and pure out painful scrapes and flesh to bone almost images. Still, if the day is hot, she insists to opt out on the riding pants, hopefully not much more. She at least believes and wears a full face helmet. In Pennsyvania I wise cracked to her' "honey, you don't have to wear a helmet in this State" her response; "no thank you!"

I'm still working on her! Hopefully when others meet and see her and the topic comes up, more convincing can take place. It's tough for her, most of our friends ride HD's and the ladies are scantly dressed at best. Ugh! ...Not the attire role model I would like her to follow!

Starting out w Kevlar pants and full ATGATT...

The heat rises thru the day, next thing I know she stuffing the pants into the top case

Work in progress. I never will stop hounding. And, I wanna keep this saying true!....

KJ & Debbie ...gone boating this weekend, where she can wear a thong bikini for all I care out there (no pics El' Pappa Don, sorry!)

 

[Blind Squirrel]

I am an advocate of personal accountability for your actions. Want to ride 1/2 dressed? Fine, but don't ask me to pay for your skin grafts or expect me to shed a tear when you crush your skull in.

With that in mind, what is the definition of "properly gear up"? To me it is a full kevlar suit (Motoport), full face helmet, tall motorcycle boots and motorcycle gloves. To you it is likley something less. Do I need to have a talk with you about how to "properly gear up"?

 

[Geezer]

I think the only effective way to influence other riders is by example. Although there will always be many who prefer comfort over safety, as well as those who think gear is for 'sissies' or whatever word you prefer, there are a few who are curious and seriously interested when they see the gear. I strongly believe that each of us should be free to choose for ourselves, and I don't worry too much about what other people, other than family or close friends, choose once they are informed.

So, long story short, inform rather than counsel.

 

[wheatonFJR]

When I got back into riding, my idea of full safety gear was a full face helmet, bomber jacket, jeans and work boots. Since being on this forum I have changed my attire as I have learned the benefits of certain gear that is protective, yet not uncomfortable.

It is a process...for someone that wants to learn, an example is good enough.

When my son bought his bike, I did not help him with the purchase of the bike at all...however I did set him up with his first set of gear. I told him, he could get the bike and ride it if and only if he was geared up all the time, including his passengers.

 

[SouthernCruizer]

the only "safe gear" on a motorcycle is the bill of sale stating that you just sold the bike.

 

[20valves]

I do ride in jeans a lot....always with boots, gloves, jacket and helmet though. Counseling others on what they should wear is a bit like telling them smoking is dangerous....they know that already. There are still people who don't wear seat belts, text while driving and drive drunk....waddya gonna do? Too much stupid out there to fix.

 

[CAJW]

When my wife and I watch a helmetless rider in a tank top, shorts and sneakers drive by our only comment is to each other, "There goes another organ donor."

Same here. When we see this, we just smile, shake our head and steer clear so we aren't witness to any pending skin grafts. So far, we've only had one guy ask at a stoplight why we're smiling. He didn't like the answer......, I guess he was expecting to hear that we liked his bike or wife beater.

You may be able to fix ignorant. You can not fix stupid.

Here, Here!

People don't think they're stupid, they just don't know, what they don't know. Experience, unfortunately is the great educator, but some times the price of education is very high. The only time I've ever offered an opinion on gear is when asked or when I'm teaching a MSF course. The analogy I've always used is, if you think your gear is good enough, go out to an asphalt parking lot on a 100+ degree day, lay down (face first) for about 15 minutes (average EMS response time) and see how that works for ya! If you burn, gear isn't cutting it. Simple, right?

 

[kwoodham]

I'm going to take a little different tact here. I think there are a lot of riders/passengers that have never had anyone offer a non-confrontational expression of concern for their safety. It might just get to start thinking about it. If they are offended, just apologize and let it go - then you can at least feel that you gave it a shot.

I've had church-members, co-workers, and perfect strangers say things like "I'd never ride one of those things - they are so dangerous..." - and then proceed to tell me about their cousin that died or almost... Almost without fail, I can see that it's coming from someone that is genuine about their concern, even if it seems to be a little misguided at times. I express appreciation for the concern and promise to take it to heart, and let their stories sober me a bit.

Here's hoping that every once in a while expressing concern might actually elicit change - you might just save a life, or at least shorten someone's recovery time.

- Kurt

 

[rickysnickers]

Here in the land of "Live Free or Die" (hey, it's on our license plate) we are free to wear no helmet and no gear. Many if not most don't. When my wife and I watch a helmetless rider in a tank top, shorts and sneakers drive by our only comment is to each other, "There goes another organ donor."
Actually, over the last few years this discussion has frequently happened in reverse. I have other riders come up to me and ask how I could possibly dress the way I do. I regularly have 'naked' riders come over and ask ME how I could possibly wear all that stuff and comment that I must be really hot. When I tell them that it is mesh and air flows right through and when I'm moving it's like wearing a regular tee shirt they say, well maybe....but they walk away commenting that they would never, ever dress like that. Hmmm, good luck with that.

That's because those types of folks are just plain ignorant! Tell us how your tee and shorts hold up after you slide on the tarmac for a while. In case anybody's thinking it, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

 

[rickysnickers]

Funny this topic came up today. I went to Best Buy last night, on my TLR. I followed another rider over there. He was on a brand new bike, still had the paper dealer plate on it. He was apparently an employee there as he was talking to the others about his new bike. He was wearing a tank top, sweat pants, tennis shoes and a helmet. He didn't say a word to me or ask about bikes at all even though I was standing next him. I had on my Olympia Hiviz jacket and pants, and my race boots.

I walked out and the guy at the desk asked me about bikes. He said he was looking into getting another one, so we chatted for a minute. He said he hadn't ridden in a long time. That's about the time I said, "Not to throw you buddy down, but I hope you get some proper riding gear." At which point he got a huge smile on his face and said he had summer gear an rain gear in his closet. I gave him the thumbs up and walked out.

 

[Tyler]

She is a beautiful lady... when I counsel the women riders in my group about gear I tell them that... and also that they should protect their ass-ets because it's not a matter of if but when you will go down. Yes it gets hot sometimes but it's way easier to wipe off sweat than it is to wipe on skin. I would hate for her to have to live with the scars that would most likely happen... if she values herself and her body, she'll wear those pants. B)

I've preached to my g/f about ATGATT. Others have as well (but not Fred W yet) and some have even shown her images of brutal and pure out painful scrapes and flesh to bone almost images. Still, if the day is hot, she insists to opt out on the riding pants, hopefully not much more. She at least believes and wears a full face helmet. In Pennsyvania I wise cracked to her' "honey, you don't have to wear a helmet in this State" her response; "no thank you!"
I'm still working on her! Hopefully when others meet and see her and the topic comes up, more convincing can take place. It's tough for her, most of our friends ride HD's and the ladies are scantly dressed at best. Ugh! ...Not the attire role model I would like her to follow!

 

[TomInPA]

I moved from CA to a state (PA) where there are no mandatory safety gear requirements. The majority of riders here do not wear helmets, and fewer have durable body protection. Those of us in full-face helmets, mesh armored jackets and pants, boots and gloves on a warm summer day are a rare find.

I don't comment on my opinions to other riders any more unless they question me. Most here are highly influenced by their peers, especially in the cruiser community. I don't expect any cultural changes when the government does not require even minimal personal protection, and uniformed motor officers are wearing short-sleeves and half helmets.

IMO the northeast is a very high risk riding environment, with poor line of sight visibility, narrow roads in relatively poor condition, complex intersections, and shitloads of traffic oblivious to motorcycles, and deer. To top that off, the riding community mostly only rides 5-months of the year and could use better skills. Yet this is where you will see mostly unprotected riders.

 

[RiderX]

In referencing to OP. It is appropriate when asked. Individual decision, I think that's ok. Let them keep death rate and insurance rates up for everyone. Nothing will change from a lecture from old guy in snowmobile suit.

 

[beemerdons]

the only "safe gear" on a motorcycle is the bill of sale stating that you just sold the bike.

+1, Gunny; SouthernCruizer: Jay I like the way that you think, I would have a beer or six with you anytime Brother! Papa Chuy Viejo just got back from Filiberto's Taqueria with a Burrito, as a concession to my Good Friend Hans I did wear my RayBan Wayfarer "safe gear" sunglasses and H-D "safe gear" fingerless gloves! jes' sayin' and nuff said, ese!

 

[mcatrophy]

If car drivers didn't have seatbelts, but did have a six-inch spike on their stealing wheels, would they drive more safely? Does that read across to motorcyclists who leave themselves open to severe injury?

As for volunteering advice, I would think a large proportion of "naked" riders are more concerned with looks and image, they are unlikely to be persuaded by a friend, let alone a stranger. I might say something if I was already talking to them, I would never approach them saying "You're an idiot not dressing properly".