AGirl's 07 ==> altitude sickness

[AGirl]

Yes, I am aware there is another thread about elevation issues, however, my unique experiences and specific issues of recent have led to this posting. I am currently on the road (in Canada actually) so I may not be able to promptly reply to any clarifying questions (I am in phone contact w/someone who can read replies to me though). Here are the facts and my experiences. in as much detail as I can offer:

My 07 has over 11k miles (and counting fast). I have NEVER had issues of stumbling, hesitation, etc., at ANY elevation until recent. (Some may need to read that sentence twice). I rode several times in CA (such as Palomar Mtn, which is 5500' and has an elevation gain of 2500' in less than 6 miles), the last occasion being 3 weeks ago. I left Phoenix two weeks ago and refueled in Las Cruces, NM (elevation 4500') then proceeded over a mountain pass w/an elevation gain of 3000 feet. On the way up, I noted the bike seemed to be running rough, surging, w/a notable decrease in throttle response. I stopped 3 times on the accent just long enough to take a photo (turning the bike off each time) at approx 5600', 6200', and 7200' (I know this due to my tracking). The bike restarted and idled as normal every time. However, after the third start I struggled greatly to accelerate from a stop. In fact, the bike would NOT pull out of first gear unless the rpms were above 6500. :blink: It felt as if I was trying to start from 5th gear... simply no power. Once I got moving, the usual smooth roll on/off of the throttle was absent, the bike hesitated severely when cracking the throttle open, and these symptoms were more exaggerated the lower the gear; symptoms less obvious during 5th gear WOT. Since I had run the bike at high elevation numerous times previously and had no issues whatsoever, I dismissed some type of elevation/FI as being factors and concluded that since I had just refueled, bad gas must indeed be the culprit of the near disabling problem. The road went through several one redlight towns, each stop required near red-line rpms to start again. I stopped at the first gas station I could find (which was during the decent of the pass), where I siphoned the gas out of the tank then refilled w/fresh gas along w/a bottle of Techron. The further I went, the better the bike ran. It is noteworthy that every mile afterward was decreasing elevation until I refueled again at 1500' outside OK City). The next day I continued a rather spirited ride (as a pack of 5 SFO-bound FJR riders I passed will attest) and though the bike seemed to be recovered from the fuel problem, I did not feel the bike was running as it had in the previous 7k miles..meaning like a champ. The issues I would describe at that point would be more of a performance issue than problematic (disabling) ones. It's important to understand my differentiation of the two. My post here is about the near disabling experiences at altitude...situations where I feel very lucky to have gotten out of.

Whether or not the change in performance was related to the bad fuel, I felt it was prudent to get the bike checked given my upcoming extensive miles, so I diverted to D&H Cycle in AL. Nick and Gerald spent all day Sat combing over the bike. No codes had been thrown/no obvious malfunctions (my understanding is the altitude type sensor, if bad, would be one of the codes). Indeed the TBS was off (this was sync #2, first was at 2500 mi), plugs looked great (this at 8k miles). As an aside, I absolutely can not say enough a/b the customer service at D&H-simply unbelievable. At any rate, when all was said and done, I hit the road again. The bike ran smoother (likely thanks mostly to a TBS) and my confidence was restored... until a few days ago when en route here to Montreal from MA via NY I decided to run the Mt.Greylock area, which has an elevation gain of 2500ft...not exactly black diamond standards, but enough to sicken my FJR again. Once again, I stopped and then struggled GREATLY to accelerate from first gear (as in it took redlining to get moving). I'd have a hard time believing anyone would vote that having to redline the bike just to be able to accelerate from a stop is “normal†or “typical†for goodness sakes! Same exact symptoms I had in NM. It was a quick decent, and as expected the symptoms diminished rapidly.

At this point I don't have a clue what is happening or what to do a/b it, especially since I had ZERO previous issues at altitude, the bike did not present diagnostic codes, and the bike runs great “off the hill." FWIW, no work was done (aside from oil/tire change) prior to departure. There is an obvious problem and I'm quite perplexed on what to do next since avoiding mountains/elevation isn't exactly an option. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I respectfully ask that all replies be kept strictly on topic and specific to helping me stay on the road and solve this problem. (For example, if you live at 25,000 feet and have no problems w/your FJR, that's great, but there's no need to post such). Thanks in advance... I'm hoping someone out there has an answer. I love this bike and don't want to park it (or worse, be stranded).

AGirl

PS. Haven't had time to post any reports, but pics are: HERE

 

[tophog]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. Keep us posted on anything they find wrong with your bike. I'm sure you've read the other threads related to altitude-related issues. At this point it's difficult to say if your problem is related to the other altitude related issues others, including myself, have reported. It's important whatever dealer works on your bike report it to Yamaha, and if possible Solv Virgil, a Yamah tech manager in Cypress, CA who I spoke with today. I'm confident there will be more 2007 altitude related issues cropping up and Yamaha needs to know about them in order to figure out the problem. I hope they can figure out whatever is wrong with your bike. Your journey sounds great! Have a safe ride.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...60&start=60

 

[Silent]

Next time the bikes starts acting up, pull over and shut her down completely for 3-5 seconds, then restart. This resets the ECU and it generally runs better after. If the bike runs better afterwords at least you're zooming in. It works on mine when the surging starts, but mine is not near as bad.

 

[AGirl]

Next time the bikes starts acting up, pull over and shut her down completely for 3-5 seconds, then restart. This resets the ECU and it generally runs better after. If the bike runs better afterwords at least you're zooming in. It works on mine when the surging starts, but mine is not near as bad.

On the way up, I noted the bike seemed to be running rough, surging, w/a notable decrease in throttle response. I stopped 3 times on the accent just long enough to take a photo (turning the bike off each time)

Thanks for the suggestion, but as I stated above, the bike was indeed shut down... nonetheless, it doesn't seem to help (or hurt) matters. Surging is one thing, unable to accelerate from a stop without huge rpms is another. My FJR did not do either in the first 7k miles.

AGirl

 

[FJRandy]

Just make sure you make it to my house, or I'm selling your tire and horn setup. :lol:

J/K.........watch your self there, young lady. See ya in a few.

 

[twowheelnut]

Your acceleration problem is similar but much more severe than what I experienced pre-TPS swap when my bike ran in hot, stop and go. Lots of RPM, feather the clutch, chug, chug, chug to speed and then a not so fine running motor for a while. Nothing to do with elevation, though. Did the D&H boys check your TPS?

 

[racer157]

You may want to try opening the gas cap and see if there is a sucking sound when you do if there is then you need to check the vent line, kinked or plugged. This will cause the reduction of fuel to the engine and a sypntom you describe. Good luck.

 

[one day]

Sounds like vapor lock. How much gas was in the tank? How long had you been riding with that tankful? How warm was it? What octane did you fill up with at Las Cruces? 87 or 89?

That 3rd stop with less gas, would mean even with the engine heat management improvements (06 07) that the gas in the tank would be warmer. Higher elevation means more easily vaporized gas (which is why the minimum octane is 89 at higher elevations and not 87)--and given the fact that the FI systems were changed and that they don't have a return line to the tank may all contribute to your problem.

This is all speculation, but it is based on my experience with a Jetta that would run like crap If the gas got too low, If it was real hot out, If I was stuck in traffic. The in-tank transfer pump had failed and the main fuel pump would occasionally vapor lock.

A suggestion, run a higher octane at higher altitudes.

Did D&H test for fuel pump for output flow?

 

[arefog]

Actually, octane requirements decrease with altitude. At our elevation of 5,000' near Denver regular gas is 85 octane and premium is 91, which works just fine since the lower atmospheric pressure results in less cylinder filling and thus a lower effective compression ratio. Turbo engines can be affected, however, and may experience timing retardation, boost bleed-off, or other means of protecting the engine. I am unaware of any relationship between octane and vaporization, and when vehicles are experiencing vapor lock around here I've never heard of anyone recommending a higher grade of gas as the answer. I'm certainly not saying as an absolute fact that it couldn't help, just that I've been driving in Colorado for 45 years and it has never come up.

Dick Fogg

 

[one day]

Actually, octane requirements decrease with altitude.

And your right. I had it reveresed.

AGirl, it may have just been 'bad gas.' Specifically, refineries do change formulations for the season. Winter supplies are more volatile to assist with cold weather start ups. Summer supplies are less volatile because of the higher temperatures. 'Bad gas' may have been older-winter formulation in the storage tank.

 

[dcarver]

AGirl - no idea why this is happening to you.. sounds just like my 1979 carburated 6 cylinder Kz1300.

I think, since you have this issue, that we should trade bikes. At least with carbs you can rejet while on the road!

Seriously, I don't think it's bad gas. I had a less significant occurrence on a Death Valley ride last spring. I don't think it's the overall elevation as much as the rate of ascent and the maps capability to keep up. But this is all just conjecture and worthless. Just pack extra clutch plates and call it good? Sorry this didn't help.

 

[trimmantom]

Have you got a power commander on your bike?

If not,have you done the barbarian jumper mod on your bike?

That is something that richens the fuel mixture at lower rpm's.

When I was in colorado last year my bike seemed dead at elevation but I wasn't experiencing quite what you're describing.

I changed the co settings +7 on each cylinder and that helped a lot.

Did D&H check the connection on your o2 sensor?maybe it's got some corrosion on the connection.

It's on the right side of the tank near the TPS and it's a black plug.

This is very puzzling and I wish I could come up with some solution for you but it sounds like a faulty sensor somewhere in the system that is not showing when it's tested in the diagnostics.

Keep us posted and hope you get home allright.

 

[BrunDog]

Just because there are no error codes does not mean the altitude sensor is not working. The sensor may simply be reading/reporting the wrong altitude. For example, you could be at 5k ft and it is telling the ECU you are at seal level. The ECU is not going to think anything is wrong. Have them run diagnostics tests on it and/or replace it. In addition, IIRC, there is a sensor in the airbox that measures absolute pressure there, too. I am too lazy to grab the manual right now, so grab the salt shaker on this one.

Before you do this, of course, make sure the problems really only happen at altitude. 2500 or 5k ain't really a big deal, but corroborate the story nonetheless. Generally, problems like this get worse, not better, ad the culprit should become painfully obvious soon.

-BD

 

[evil_henchman]

Just because there are no error codes does not mean the altitude sensor is not working. The sensor may simply be reading/reporting the wrong altitude. For example, you could be at 5k ft and it is telling the ECU you are at seal level. The ECU is not going to think anything is wrong. Have them run diagnostics tests on it and/or replace it. In addition, IIRC, there is a sensor in the airbox that measures absolute pressure there, too. I am too lazy to grab the manual right now, so grab the salt shaker on this one.
Before you do this, of course, make sure the problems really only happen at altitude. 2500 or 5k ain't really a big deal, but corroborate the story nonetheless. Generally, problems like this get worse, not better, ad the culprit should become painfully obvious soon.

-BD

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, a correctly working altitude sensor combined with too lean a fuel mix would be a big problem at altitude. As I previously posted, with carbureted engines the fuel mix gets richer with altitude. Same amount of fuel with less air = richer mix. However if an altitude sensor blindly leans an already too lean mix with less air you're bound to have problems. I'd be looking at ways to make the altitude sensor think it's at sea level all the time or somehow fatten up the mix, be it barbarian mod or PCIII.

 

[FJRandy]

I might do a quick check on all connections while she's at my house having the Nautilus and rear tire installed.

Definitely NOT bad gas, it's leaning more toward that altitude sensor.

Where is it on the '07? Same as my '03? I'll break out the manual before she arrives on Thurs.

 

[Wingman]

I might do a quick check on all connections while she's at my house having the Nautilus and rear tire installed.Definitely NOT bad gas, it's leaning more toward that altitude sensor.

Where is it on the '07? Same as my '03? I'll break out the manual before she arrives on Thurs.

I was just looking at the 2006 service manual (should be the same for 07, but not confirmed yet) and there appears to be a sensor that reads intake manifold pressure, but no sensor for altitude compensation per se. With the sensor reading intake vacume, the ecm should automatically adjust for altitude without actually having a seperate altitude sensor. The operative word being "should".

The intake pressure sensor can be checked in the diag mode. The test is simply to go into diag mode and look for a drop in the reading when the engine is cranked with the starter, but I wouldn't expect to find anything out of the ordinary. You can also compare the diag pressure reading to the local barometer to see if they are off, but again, wouldn't expect to see huge difference.

I think the best way to find the problem would be to log the data while trying to duplicate the problem, but I'm not sure if this is even possible.

Good luck,

David

 

[okmac]

Would someone a whole lot more knowledgeable than me please start a survey of 07 riders so we can have an idea how bad this altitude sickness really is. I too ride an 07 but have not been up to any elevation yet but will be before summer is over and would like to have some idea of the percentage of riders that have experienced a problem.

If someone wants to take it on, please make an effort to seperate the herky jerky throttle problem from an altitude problem . If I may , you could ask questions like,

Have you ridden in high country.

Have you experienced a problem riding at a steady elevation in high country.

Have you experienced a problem while changing elevation

Was the elevation more than 3000 ft.

Was the elevation more that 6000 ft.

Something like that, whoever takes the responsibility to do it will probably have some better questions than I but a lot of us would like to know if it is a problem with what percentage of 07 bikes.

Thanks ahead of time

Mac

 

[tophog]

OK, I'm by no means an FJR expert ...in fact I'm a newbie to FJR's. However being that my bike has the the surging problem badly, I started a thread to get the collection started.

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=20661

 

[AGirl]

An update.... over 8,000 miles and varied terrain since experiencing the near disabling issue at altitude in NM, I can clearly identify when the problem occurs: not just with elevation gain but doing so QUICKLY (both combined, like in NM as stated in my initial posting above). Recently I found a high speed grade so I ran it twice. Here's what I experienced:

First time I went about 15mph under the posted speed limit (basically VERY slow). There was a SLIGHT stumble rolling on/off the throttle, something that might not have even been noticeable to someone else who hasn't spent 16,000 miles in 14 weeks in the saddle of the bike. I stopped for 30 seconds at the top (didn't turn bike off) and proceeded out of 1st gear with minimal hesitation.

The second time I rode this test mountain, I did it in what my friends call “the AGirl pace” or simply “spirited.” About ¾ the way up (same place during the 1st test run) I rolled off the throttle completely, then cracked it open, and this was the response: ....one thousand one, one thousand TWO (absolutely nothing-the bike acted like it wasn't even in gear!). After the 2 sec pause (still WOT), it hit with force (as in whiplash like). I continued on up, stopped again for 30 sec, and as I expected and have experienced prior, GREAT difficulty getting out of 1st gear, requiring high rpms.

I have no idea how (or where!) to go about addressing the problem since taking the bike to a flatland dealership/tech wouldn't provide the topo to replicate the problem. Is my only choice to find a reputable dealer who is at elevation and has a strong relationship with Yamaha? I had planned to leave the FJR here in TN while I rode to AK (on a different bike) then return in Sept to get it. This out of service time would be perfect to get this problem fixed—I just don't know what needs to be fixed or where to take it. Any suggestions, advise, recommendations???

Thanks for all the support I've received from this forum during my travels. It is most appreciated.

AGirl