FJRF004: "Altitude Sickness" 06-07/M2007-016

[TruWrecks]

Admin Note: After building this thread with great diligence from the thread starter and forum contribution, this issue has been assigned for forum use FJRF004: "Altitude Sickness" 06-07. Although the issue does not have any known formal Yamaha Technical Bulletin, feel free to use this term and reference this thread when working with Yamaha dealers or Yamaha Corporate. Perhaps they will too acknowledge the issue formally and assign a technical bulletin.

Admin Update: On 10/17/07 Yamaha did release a bulletin! M2007-016. Thanks TruWrecks for your tremendous work on this thread!

Updated 10/17/2007 by TruWrecks - I just got a call today. The official bulletin has been released. The parts are on the way to the dealers.

Updated 10/11/2007 by TruWrecks - Over 400 "surge free" miles so far. The FJR is a bit twitchy in the lower RPMs, like when it was new.

Updated 10/03/2007 by TruWrecks - New ECU has been installed in my bike. Testing continues.

Updated 10/01/2007 by TruWrecks - New ECUs are being shipped.

Updated 09/24/2007 by TruWrecks - Information update.

Updated 09/22/2007 by TruWrecks - Member count and information update.

Updated 09/20/2007 by TruWrecks - Member count update.

Updated 07/21/2007 by TruWrecks - Yamaha identifies the cause.

***Yamaha has targets the 1st week of October to release 2007 ECU.***

The Product team at Yamaha Motor Corporation has informed me that the 2007 corrected ECU should be shipped out to the dealers in the first week of October. They dealers will notify owners who are having issues.

***Yamaha has identified the cause of the surging.***

Yamaha has admitted that they removed the sensor in the 2007 that samples the air pressure during operation (The 2006 has this sensor). They now only have one sensor to sample air pressure, and it only takes a reading shortly after the engine starts. It does not take a reading again until the bike is turned off, then back on, hence the need to restart your bikes when it starts acting up. This means that ALL 2007 FJR's will eventually have a problem with altitude.

For those of you who have patiently waited, and helped me collect information, the following is my findings for what I have compiled:

2006:

45-1744 have reported sporadic issues, but no consistent pattern, less the two last in the group. The VINs from lower ranges of the California bikes also show no trend. These appear to be anomalies.

2007:

All 2007 model bikes appear to have the issue with surging/throttle response issues with altitude changes of ~1000' or greater while ascending or descending. I have also received conformation from a few owners in Europe that are also reporting altitude issues.

Currently 75 2007's from FJRForum.com members have reported surging ranging from subtle to severe symptoms. I have only been told of one bike in this range that DOES NOT have any issues with elevation change. That bike appears to be the exception. The lower end of this range (116-709) are all California spec bikes to my knowledge.

I will be releasing my findings to Yamaha. Several of involved owners have have demonstrated how/when surging and throttle latency is likely to occur. I even have a short video to show just how much throttle latency I get on my FJR when it exhibits the behavior (I haven't had any feedback on that either from Yamaha). Yamaha should now have all the information they need to get this corrected.

I'll update this post as I get more information.

Latent Throttle Response on a slight incline at 3900ft.

Resources by request:

Yamaha Motor USA - Customer Relations (800) 962-7926

NHTSA "File A Complaint"

Autopedia - Lemon Law Links

ADMIN NOTE: Thread author reserves the option to have the thread purged of off-topic posts for potential Yamaha presentation.

 

[Fred H.]

I would like to know if the problem has been experienced at altitudes above about 6K ft.

From what I have seen reported, it seem like it occurs at mid range altitudes of around 2K-4K ft after a change in altitude of about 1,500 ft or more and fairly steady state throttle. If this is true, it might be one more clue that would help solve the puzzle.

By the way, great job on collecting the data. This will probably go a long way toward getting the problem looked at by Yamaha in a serious manner.

 

[SkooterG]

By the way, great job on collecting the data. This will probably go a long way toward getting the problem looked at by Yamaha in a serious manner.

What Fred said. Well done.

 

[Millsaps2]

Looking at the NHTSA data for the 2007 FJR fifteen (15) complaints have been recorded for the surging problem under 6 different areas as follows-

Engine & Engine cooling-3

Fuel System, Gasoline Delivery-2

Fuel system, Gasoline, Fuel injection system-6

Fuel system, Gasoline, Fuel injection system, injectors-1

Fuel system, other, Fuel injection system-1

Vehicle speed control-2

I suggest any additional filings be under "Fuel system, Gasoline, Fuel injection system" for uniformity.

 

[AZrider]

Truwrecks,

I read the post from "tropicalFJR" from down under on the Aussie bikes with interest. He states that none of the Aussie bikes have experienced any altitude sickness (even the '07s) and he "rides up and down hill all day long" with no problems. This leads me to believe that this problem may be "build" related, i.e. that our US cpu's have a different FI map or that the cpu or pressure sensor may have come from a different "lot" corresponding to certain VIN numbers.

What Yamaha might look at is their "build" sheets on bikes within the VIN # range you stated and also what components were exported to the US vs Australia on that build sheet (BOM Bill of Materials).

1. For instance did they change suppliers of any components at the beginning of that VIN # range?

2. Are the components for the Australian bikes the same or is the FI map for the cpu the same?

Thanks for putting together some hard statistics on our machines.

AZ

 

[Fred H.]

FYI, I have contacted the lead motorcycle investigator at NHTSA ODI, and told him of this problem. I spoke to him today about it but don't know yet if they will open an investigation or not. I believe they are in the monitoring phase right now trying to determine how serious it actually is and how widespread. I will keep you posted if I learn anything more.

If anyone has any info on accidents or injuries that result from this problem, please let me know about it. At minimum, I need name, and phone # and location so it can be verified.

 

[PA1195]

Here's some fill from a thread on the other Forum regarding surging/stalling issues in Europe: https://www.fjrowners.ws/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4279

EDIT 7/23/07: There are several threads now on this Forum that relate to these problems in some form.

EDIT 7/28/07: Despite what was posted by TruWrecks 7/21/07 (and no pissing contest intended), my '06 Service Manual purchased over a year ago for the then current '06 FJR I owned does not show an Altitude (Barometric) Sensor in the FI system description...so, according to the '06 SM the '06 models don't have one (?)...And that manual is also the current version P/N for my '07...I believe that Yamaha made a mid-year '06 production change to the current ECU/FI Map that altered both the early '06 CO settings from -10+8+8+11 that I and others have reported, to the current +5+18+18+21 for '07's...Yamaha at that time also possibly changed the 3-D FI Map to the current one that has been causing some real problems when barometric pressures change with altitude excursions...some '06 owners have reported both surging issues and current '07 CO settings (see this Forum), so there may be an ECU Map and CO setting change linkage as well (my speculation and not confirmed)...that's my best guess for now...keep an eye on this data when the Tech Exchange Bulletin appears if you own an '06 with problems.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[TruWrecks]

THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION THREAD!

Please do not post anything here that is not confirmation based information. Posts that are discussion based WILL be deleted The threads above this post will be left intact as they add to the content being assembled to present to Yamaha Corp.

Thank you.

 

[madness]

TruWrecks here is data that I have been collecting since first experiencing the surging issue. I haven't had the bike long but I have experienced quite a few occurrences of the condition. I have included the symptoms that I have been experiencing and it duplicates some of your data. Hopefully that won't be a problem. Thanks for the work you have put into this.

Bike

• 2007 Yamaha FJR1300
• VIN ####A003916
• Bike is box stock. No modifications have been made.
• Current mileage is 2526

Symptoms

• At constant throttle bike slows down and then speeds up very much like if the throttle is constantly being rolled on and off.
• Throttle inputs become delayed. Increase throttle, there is a delay and then a forward surge.
• When trying to move forward from a stop the bike nearly dies, significant slipping of the clutch is required to get the bike moving.
• As altitude changes the above symptoms become worse.
• Symptoms occur with positive or negative changes in altitude (at low or high altitudes). Condition is not related to high altitude but rather changes in altitude.
• As symptoms become worse, pulling over and turning off the engine and then restarting clears the problem but as altitude begins to change symptoms begin to reappear and worsen the more the altitude has changed from the altitude at which the bike was last started.
• Symptoms are significant and reproducible.

Occurrences

Date: (July 14th 2007)

Location: Carefree, AZ

Weather Conditions: Sunny, low humidity, low 100s F

Altitude Start: 1220 ft (Glendale, AZ)

Altitude End: 2560 ft (Carefree, AZ)

Change in Altitude: +1340 ft

Date: (July 29th 2007)

Location: Summerhaven, AZ

Weather Conditions: Sunny, low humidity, low 90s F

Altitude Start: 2703 ft (Tucson, AZ)

Altitude End: 4500 ft (mid way to Summerhaven, AZ)

Change in Altitude: +1797 ft

Date: (August 3rd 2007)

Location: Payson, AZ

Weather Conditions: Overcast, moderate humidity, low 70s F

Altitude Start: 1905 ft (Fountain Hills, AZ)

Altitude End: 5200 ft (Payson, AZ)

Change in Altitude: +3295 ft

Date: (August 3rd 2007)

Location: Flagstaff, AZ

Weather Conditions: Overcast, moderate humidity, upper 60s F

Altitude Start: 5200 ft (Payson, AZ)

Altitude End: 7011 ft (Flagstaff, AZ)

Change in Altitude: +1811 ft

Date: (August 3rd 2007)

Location: Pleasant Creek Campground, UT

Weather Conditions: Partly Cloudy, low humidity, high 60s F

Altitude Start: 6675ft (Boulder, UT)

Altitude End: 8600ft (Pleasant Creek Campground, UT)

Change in Altitude: +1925 ft

Date: (August 4th 2007)

Location: Pleasant Creek Campground, UT

Weather Conditions: Sunny, low humidity, mid 60s F

Altitude Start: 6830ft (Torrey, UT)

Altitude End: 8600ft (Pleasant Creek Campground, UT)

Change in Altitude: +1770 ft

Date: (August 4th 2007)

Location: Boulder, UT

Weather Conditions: Sunny, low humidity, low 70s F

Altitude Start: 8600ft (Pleasant Creek Campground, UT)

Altitude End: 6830ft (Torrey, UT)

Change in Altitude: -1770 ft

 

[Millsaps2]

The MAP sensor can be used to directly measure the BAP (barometric absolute pressure).

BAP = MAP (When either of the following conditions are true.)

When the engine is not turning.

When operating at WOT (nearly equal to the barometric pressure)

Once the BAP is known, the MAP sensor can be used to calculate intake manifold vacuum.

BAP - MAP = Manifold Vacuum

When the engine is running, the difference between the BAP and the MAP is known as intake manifold vacuum. The ECU learns the BAP just before cranking the engine, i.e., when MAP equals BAP.

As atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing altitude, vacuum must also decrease to maintain the same MAP in order to maintain the same torque output. This is accomplished by opening the engine's throttle more as altitude increases.

However, the BAP learned at the beginning of the trip becomes obsolete as altitude changes.

Sometimes an engine control system will use both a BAP sensor and a MAP sensor to continuously maintain an accurate barometer and manifold vacuum. However, neither vacuum nor barometer are necessary for fuel determination, although they are helpful for other engine functions. The critical information is the air's density in the intake manifold, and the speed of the engine, i.e., the speed-density method. The BAP sensor is often located within the ECU, and the MAP sensor is usually located near the intake manifold.

 

[Constant Mesh]

I don't believe the '06 had an atmospheric pressure sensor. The '05 was the last model to have this sensor. So the '07 should behave no differently than the '06 except for ECU software changes.

On the electrical schematic for the the earlier models the 'baro' sensor is clearly shown and how it's electrically connected to the ECU. On the '06 schematic the sensor is not shown or listed and the connection terminal on the ECU is not used -- left blank, no connection.

This is likely just a software problem. The Honda ST1300 does not have a baro sensor. It has an intake pressure sensor similar to the FJR.

 

[LarsBo]

My 2007 Yamaha FJR1300A has VIN number ##########A000627 and I have about 2300 miles on it.

I'm not sure what to do with this info so I though I'd post it here first - same topic altitude sickness.

Today Friday, August 17, 2007 I made my first of what I hope to be many rides to Big Bear Village, just outside Los Angeles at the altitude of 6700 feet above sea level.

What a surprise on the way up that starting at about 2000 feet my throttle started acting up - surging etc.. That was bad enough but the next thing I got into heavy stop and go traffic. There was an orange-vested survey crew that had one lane blocked off such that uphill and downhill traffic were taking turns with the only lane open.

What a nightmare trying to manage speed with a throttle that was basically out of control. First twist the throttle a wee bit and the engine bogs, hold it there and after a few seconds the engine starts to race towards wide open throttle. It never makes it to wide open but it will definitely get your attention when you trying to maintain speed in heavy traffic while ascending or descending on narrow twisty mountain roads.

The throttle stayed "sick" all the way to the top at 6700 feet. I shut the bike off for a while and then headed back down. When I restarted the bike ran great again while running around the lake at the roughly the same altitude. Then I headed down the mountain. I ran fine for a few thousand feet but about halfway down - say 3000 feet in elevation the surging started again. Luckily the traffic wasn't bad so it was easier to manage speed going down than the nightmarish ride up in the morning.

I see TruWrecks has added the update on July 21 that Yamaha admits there is a problem. I sure hope I can be participate in the solution! That is I'd love to get an air pressure sensor added (or whatever the fix is) to make this bike able to go to changing altitudes. Man that's why I bought this motorcycle to ride up to the mountains!

Is there a fix yet? What can I do to help?

 

[Newbium]

Mine is a 2007, VIN A000469. I have the same altitude sickness. Started at around 1500 ft, and got progressively worse as I continued climbing to 4000 ft. I stopped for a quick break, restarted the bike, and continued down the hill. There was measurable improvement after the restart.

BTW...I took it in over the weekend for it's 600 mile service. I will be riding back up Mt. Hamilton after work this Friday to see if the service improved the altitude problem.

 

[TruWrecks]

I have the information recorded. Yamaha is working on it. PLEASE QUIT POSTING IN THIS THREAD!

Thanks.

 

[IanS]

Just spoken to Yamaha UK. The factory have apparently sent them an email this morning saying that they have developed a new reprogrammed ECU that will be fitted to affected bikes 'in the next few weeks'. Wouldn't commit to any more definite timescale than that as they are still being manufactured and then shipped from Japan.

 

[IanS]

And another call today, new ECU on its way will be here in next 2-3 days.

 

[TruWrecks]

Updated first post.

 

[TruWrecks]

The new ECU is currently being run to verify proper operation in all available conditions.

 

[otubrab]

Please see thread "2007 Altitude Surging -- Members Wanted thread" post number 410 for my initial experience with the new (fixed) ECU for this issue.