HID Headlight Kit

[SkooterG]

Power consumption.

I forgot to bring this up in my initial post. Since I have a Gen I with limited extra electrical power, watt savings was a major factor in me getting this kit. Again, I am not convinced of any gains. Partly because of what electrical guru 3dogs personally measure as explained here: Clicky, Clicky

I also don't seem to be getting any major gains as observed from my Datel voltmeter readings. But this is not very scientific as I don't remember all the exact numbers prior to HID kit installation. I need to re-verify my curent numbers but this is what I remember from my trip to Death Valley and back: No farkles besides gps going, I get 13.9-14.0. Add radar detector, mix-it, and full 90 watts of warm-n-safe liner and I am down to 13.4 I believe. Take off the liner, but turn on the PHIDs, I am at 13.6 IIRC. Both liner and PHIDs and I am at 13.2 volts and I need to find ionbeam's old post but I believe that is not a good, sustainable condition.

What really suprised me initially was when going from low to high beams, the voltmeter drops a tenth of a volt. I was like wait a minute, the bulb is always rated at the same wattage, regardless of high/low with HID. As I thought more about it, it came to me that operating the solenoid to put the bulb in the 'high' position takes some juice. I am still surpised/disappointed however that it is enough to cause a .1 volt drop. So no wattage gains from HID kit compared to stock in going from low to high. Bummer.

Skooter - Can you give us an update, did the bulbs turn out to be 5k? Did Mr UPS bring you new bulbs?

Sorry. I haven't been able to get back on this project for a week. Todd has been in contact with me trying to work out a solution. It's been me holding things up. However, I did do some more testing tonight.

First, I properly aimed the beams. They were way too low. I don't know if they were that low before HID installation, but they were definitely *noticeably* low after installing the kit with big bright spot just ahead of the bike.

So with them properly aimed, I did some night riding. Not as much as I would of liked, but some. Unfortunately, I am still not getting *WOW*ed by the amount of light. Don't know if that's a color thing or not. Don't know if it's an individual perception thing or not. It is an adequate amount of light, just not the gains I was expecting. Later this week I hope to do some back to back testing with vectervp1 where we will go out riding together. One on the HID kit FJR, and one on a stock halogen FJR. So I'll have two different opinions while being able to switch back and forth between bikes under identical conditions (the same roads). I hope that will give a better clue as to brightness gains, as well as beam patterns.

I did take some more photos, this time including stock halogen lights. I don't know if any of the photos are 100% correct in their color representation, but they are pretty good examples.

First off, stock halogen vs. HID kit. Wow, the stocks sure look yellow next to the HIDs. And while the HIDs look primarily 'white', you can still see the touch of blue/violet in them. First photo is with flash, second no flash and off to the side.

Beam scatter on the concrete directly in front of the FJRs.

Next are photos of both bikes like above, but now with the aux PHIDs on. The PHIDs made getting good photos tougher as they are so freaking bright. In the first, with a flash, you can barely tell the color differences. In the other shots it's a bit more obvious. PHIDs are still a very *white* light (4200K), closer to the stock halogen yellow the the supposed 5000K HID kit. But very, very bright. I love these lights.

w/o flash:

with flash:

w/o flash:

A photo of HID headlight kit vs. PHID aux lights showing color differences of the two HID lights.

Lastly are three pics of the stock vs. HID kit lights illuminating my garage door. Low beam only. First of all, the garage door is a light tan so I have no idea how that affects things here - especially with the more yellow stock halogens. As you can see, in these comparison photos the HID lights do seem to be significantly brighter. However I am still not convinced. While live in person the HID light seems a small bit brighter, the photos seem to amplify it. In other words, my live experience is is not as dramatic as the photos show. However the HID light does seem to be more intense. Like I said above, hopefully I can do some side by side comparisons with a 2nd opinion later this week and provide some better conclusions on this. I also wonder if the HID kit bulbs were 4300K if I would be more impressed with the *brightness* of the light.

With flash:

w/o flash:

w/o flash, off from the side:

 

[Ignacio]

Color difference, personal preference, and how the human eye and light aside...this photo shows me something objective that the camera CCD probably doesn't distort. The vertical slat of the garage in the halogen side is still very visible. It's washed out in the HID section and the amount washed out seems larger. That tells me more photons are coming from the HIDs.

Solenoid being a tenth of a volt is interesting.

And the amount of flaring by the camera on the HID side also tells me there's more photons.

None of that though will beat your subjective interpretation for yourself though. Maybe that's why these lighting projects we do rarely come out with Wow the same way. I know from the photos I like the HID light better already. It seems closer to white TO ME and the halogen seems very yellow.

 

[GalaxyBlue]

Interesting...

My HID's are 4300k And my PHIDS are 6k...

 

[jekirby]

Ok, I got no dog in this hunt, but I have an interesting observation from my R6 and others on an R6 forum I belong to have the same observation. My bike has the stock halogen. Not H4...don't really know which bulb they are, but at the top of the beam there it a very blue line. Other bikers have noticed the blue flash in their mirrors and have commented that I have aftermarket lights. I do not. Others on the forum have commented about this and I figure it is the reflector and lens refracting the light and highlighting that frequency. Could this be some of the problem and the whiter light highlights this?

 

[Fred W]

What really suprised me initially was when going from low to high beams, the voltmeter drops a tenth of a volt. I was like wait a minute, the bulb is always rated at the same wattage, regardless of high/low with HID. As I thought more about it, it came to me that operating the solenoid to put the bulb in the 'high' position takes some juice. I am still surpised/disappointed however that it is enough to cause a .1 volt drop. So no wattage gains from HID kit compared to stock in going from low to high. Bummer.

This particular observation would be unique to this particular kit. In the kit that I have, the solenoids do not have any "spring" action forcing them either in or out, it's more of an "over-center" type of spring to hold it in whichever position it is currently in. It requires a small amount of power to switch it from one mode to the other and then there is a small amount of current through the coil continuously. The control box just switches the polarity of the drive signal to the solenoid, so there is no difference in total power required between high beam and low beam.

Since all of your pictures clearly show an increase in light output with the HIDs, your disappointment must be related more to your perception of that light (for whatever reason). Maybe your eyes are more or less sensitive to the light color? As I recall, the human eye is more sensitive to yellow light than white light, so it may be that even though the HIDs throw more photons, they are not necessarily producing more visible light?

Perhaps some of your disappointment is because somewhere in the back of your mind you were expecting the HID headlights to be (more) equivalent of the PHIDs in light output? That would not be the case since the reflector is so much different. In fact, the comparison should be strictly of HID headlamps to Halogen headlamps. Period. Bringing the PHIDs into the discussion just clouds the comparison. The PHIDs will always have superior light output. But they also can't be used as low beams.

 

[squeezer]

(snip)
None of that though will beat your subjective interpretation for yourself though. Maybe that's why these lighting projects we do rarely come out with Wow the same way. I know from the photos I like the HID light better already. It seems closer to white TO ME and the halogen seems very yellow.

That's my take from the photos too. Thanks much for posting them up, skoot.

 

[dcarver]

I think I've found the problem.

SkooterG has pinpoint pupils that can't dilate at night.

Your welcome Skoot, :fuck: :rofl:

 

[SkooterG]

Color difference, personal preference, and how the human eye and light aside...this photo shows me something objective that the camera CCD probably doesn't distort. The vertical slat of the garage in the halogen side is still very visible. It's washed out in the HID section and the amount washed out seems larger. That tells me more photons are coming from the HIDs.
And the amount of flaring by the camera on the HID side also tells me there's more photons.

None of that though will beat your subjective interpretation for yourself though. Maybe that's why these lighting projects we do rarely come out with Wow the same way. I know from the photos I like the HID light better already. It seems closer to white TO ME and the halogen seems very yellow.

That's my take from the photos too. Thanks much for posting them up, skoot.

Since all of your pictures clearly show an increase in light output with the HIDs, your disappointment must be related more to your perception of that light (for whatever reason). Maybe your eyes are more or less sensitive to the light color? As I recall, the human eye is more sensitive to yellow light than white light, so it may be that even though the HIDs throw more photons, they are not necessarily producing more visible light?
Perhaps some of your disappointment is because somewhere in the back of your mind you were expecting the HID headlights to be (more) equivalent of the PHIDs in light output? That would not be the case since the reflector is so much different. In fact, the comparison should be strictly of HID headlamps to Halogen headlamps. Period. Bringing the PHIDs into the discussion just clouds the comparison. The PHIDs will always have superior light output. But they also can't be used as low beams.

You know, the more I look at the photos the more I agree with you guys. Except! Live and in person it just wasn't the same. In the photos the stock halogens look really yellow and the PHIDs look close to the HID kit, where live, the PHIDs seemed closer to the halogens. I don't get it either. Maybe it is me. Hence, why I am going to grab vectervp1 for a 2nd opinion, AND back-to-back testing. Maybe even then when jumping from one bike to another I'll see it.

What I do remember VERY specifically was seeing vectervp1's early low beam only HID kit. I believe it was a 4300K kit and those lights put out a HUGE amount more light than stock. And it was a 'better' color light than stock. I remember while us traveling together him being several car lengths behind me and the HID light from HIS FJR was the light I was seeing ahead of me. And since it was the low beam with the sharp cut-off, he wasn't blinding me in mirrors like he had his high beams on. (They were bright though) So that experience tells me I'm not adverse to 'liking' HID lights. I don't think it's solely a color or perception issue, but perhaps I am wrong and it is. And of course I love my PHIDs, but they are a different beast.

Regardless of the results of forthcoming testing with vectervp1, I am fairly certain at this point I am going to try and replace the HID bulbs with the 4300K color. Also, I found some photos in the below link that compare HID colors, and my current bulbs sure seem to look closer to 6000K than 5000K. What think you all?

Clicky for sample HID color photos.

Interesting...
My HID's are 4300k And my PHIDS are 6k...

That IS interesting. How did you get 6k PHIDs? Post some photos you little twerp!

This particular observation would be unique to this particular kit. In the kit that I have, the solenoids do not have any "spring" action forcing them either in or out, it's more of an "over-center" type of spring to hold it in whichever position it is currently in. It requires a small amount of power to switch it from one mode to the other and then there is a small amount of current through the coil continuously. The control box just switches the polarity of the drive signal to the solenoid, so there is no difference in total power required between high beam and low beam.

Interesting. Obviously your kit has some advantages over this one as far as watt savings. Wish mine was like yours.

Oh, and Carver...........

:fuck:

NOT FAIR posting photos from day 7 of the IBR and after hours of stop-n-go traffic in 115 degree heat! Revenge will be sweet!

 

[Ignacio]

Regardless of the results of forthcoming testing with vectervp1, I am fairly certain at this point I am going to try and replace the HID bulbs with the 4300K color.

That's probably your best move to date. :clapping:

One doesn't know what color range your camera is set to when it took the picture (higher end dSLRs can be set to the very color ranges that we're talking about) or set the white balance like I'll have in my shots when I actually finish my comparo.

One more thing...and I'll probably butcher it technically or come off not completely baked.....is the human eye's rods or cones become saturated over the course of hours with a certain color range and the brain adjust...I think. When I first went from halogen to 6000K lights I thought they were bluish, but after spending a few hours in the inky black of a a Nevada night I got used to them quickly. Such that when they burned out in New Mexico at night in the '07 IBR when I switched to halogen I couldn't stand the yellow until the next night of riding.

When I replaced them for 4300K lights it started yellow, but I got used to that after a few nights of riding and noticed I could pick out things at distance more easily because of an increased contrast from the extra photons...regardless of color.

I think the same effect is skiing all day with tinted goggles. Take them off and the world looks whacky for a while.

 

[Fred W]

This particular observation would be unique to this particular kit. In the kit that I have, the solenoids do not have any "spring" action forcing them either in or out, it's more of an "over-center" type of spring to hold it in whichever position it is currently in. It requires a small amount of power to switch it from one mode to the other and then there is a small amount of current through the coil continuously. The control box just switches the polarity of the drive signal to the solenoid, so there is no difference in total power required between high beam and low beam.

Interesting. Obviously your kit has some advantages over this one as far as watt savings. Wish mine was like yours.

Maybe. But if there is any power savings on mine it's pretty small.

I think your observation on the other thread, that there are no real wattage savings to be had with 35W HIDs over 55W halogens, is the more important one.

So, if you aren't getting any reduction in power, you'd better have an appreciably better light for > $100 added expense, right?

 

[bmwhd]

Thanks for posting the additional photos Greg. I've sent you another PM.

Interesting on the electrical findings too. Given the current draw of the kit flat lines after start up at 3.5 amps on the bench, I'm wondering if your really seeing the full story measuring with the Datel that way but I'm not an expert.

It never occurred to me to mention the two types of solenoids. I prefer this type with the powered hold in the high beam position as in my experience they're much more reliable. The trade off is a small bit of current is required. Never thought of .1 volt as being that big a deal but I don't have a Gen I.

Given the discussion and interest I'm trying to see if my supplier can get 4300K lamps of this type and manufacture but they are getting harder to find as many have moved on to the 5000K because in theory it's the closest to natural sunlight.

Those of you that have been so patient as we sort this out, thanks. You're not forgotten and I apologize again for the time it's taken to get more bulbs in. Between the questions on color temp and my real job, this has proven to be a major project.

 

[Duster19]

Thanks for posting the additional photos Greg. I've sent you another PM.
Interesting on the electrical findings too. Given the current draw of the kit flat lines after start up at 3.5 amps on the bench, I'm wondering if your really seeing the full story measuring with the Datel that way but I'm not an expert.

It never occurred to me to mention the two types of solenoids. I prefer this type with the powered hold in the high beam position as in my experience they're much more reliable. The trade off is a small bit of current is required. Never thought of .1 volt as being that big a deal but I don't have a Gen I.

Given the discussion and interest I'm trying to see if my supplier can get 4300K lamps of this type and manufacture but they are getting harder to find as many have moved on to the 5000K because in theory it's the closest to natural sunlight.

Those of you that have been so patient as we sort this out, thanks. You're not forgotten and I apologize again for the time it's taken to get more bulbs in. Between the questions on color temp and my real job, this has proven to be a major project.

Todd,

Thanks for the update.

Dave

 

[SkooterG]

Did the final phase of testing tonight with vectervp1's help. Back-to-back testing of the new HID kit compared to the stock halogen kit. Also got a 2nd opinion from vectervp1. And as a bonus, Art re-installed his old 4300K low beam only HID kit in his FJR for comparison also.

So here's the first of the photos showing my 5000K (supposed) HID kit (near), Vecter's old 4300K low beam only HID kit (center), and stock halogen bulbs (far). You can see the color differences, though I would say it's more obvious in person. Art's old 4300K kit is much more a 'white' light.

4300K (near) and 5000K (far) only.

And here ladies and gents, boys and girls, are all three bikes all lit up along with my PHIDs and Vecter's Solteks. There's about a bazillion lumens being put out here!

So, then Art and I took a ride with his 4300K FJR and my 5000K FJR. No really meaningful piccies to show here unfortunately. However we both agreed the 'whiter' 4300K light was much preferable and seemed brighter. Or at least with that color the light was more 'usable'.

Here's one last shot of the 4300K compared to the 5000K.

Next, we took 5000K FJR out together with my stock halogen FJR. Wish I could be more definite in the conclusions here, but it's not to be. We both thought the HID kit put out more light than stock in the low beam. I think Art thought there was more than I. I would say that neither of us thought it put out 2-3 times as many lumens as stock as HIDs are supposed to, but that's a tough judgement to make. I will say I personally don't like the 5000K light. To me, it's too 'harsh'. I like the 'warmer' light of the halogen or the 4300K light. That's the best I can do to explain it.

Here's a photo of the stock halogen light:

And a photo of the 5000K kit light:

The photos kind of show it, but as I said, not a HUGE amount more light with the HID. And I think the light is 'harsh'. The halogen light, while 'yellow', seems 'warmer' and more pleasant to me. Though I still think the 4300K is the best of both worlds.

Now, for the high beam. Stock vs. HID. We both agreed there was much less improvement here from stock halogen to HID. Maybe a bit more brightness with the halogen, but not much if any. What I think I also noticed is that the high beam light pattern is narrower in the horizontal plane with the HID kit. Both FJRs have their headlights adjusted pretty close to identically in the low beam and in a good place IMHO. But the HID high beam is 'higher' than stock. Almost too high. In fact I think I will want to lower the aim just a bit, but that will also slightly impact the low beam aim in a negative way.

These aren't the best photos, but they do represent what our personal observations were too. I was trying to see how each lit up a small building in the distance.

Stock halogen:

HID:

Not much difference at all.

Some bonus photos:

Here are all three FJRs lighting up my garage door. On the far right is the 5000K kit with PHIDs on. You can see the two small bright spots on the garage above the normal beam. But Holy Lumens from Hell, batman! Look at the Solteks on the garage door! They are that huge bright spot. I love my PHIDs, but they still ain't nothing compared to the Solteks. Freaking manly-man aux lights there, baby!

All three beam scatter patterns shining on the pavement:

And lastly, the down-side to HIDs. Check out what the HIDs have done to vectervp1's reflector. First is a photo of the top of the reflector which really doesn't have anything to do with the beam.

In the next photo I used the flash on the camera. This allows you to see the 'clouding' the HIDs do do the back of the refelctor form the bulb up. IMHO, this must have at least some impact on the quality/brightness of the beam. Bummer.

So these are my conclusions:

1) 4300K is better than 5000K assuming that is what my bulbs are. Mine do seem pretty blue for 5000K, but both vecter and I are not convinced they are not. Maybe there is a good deal of variance in bulbs and mine are perhaps 5500K? Regardless, after seeing vecter's 4300K kit, and both of our aux lights that are in the 4300K range, I think that color is the best and would definitely recommend it for anyone else. To me it's a more 'warm' useable light, and not as 'harsh' as the higher color bulbs. Now this may be a personal preference, or perhaps varies with individual 'perception', but during my research over the last week I found out the both BMW and Mercedes use 4300K bulbs in their automotive HID lights. Now, why do you suppose they both have done that? I am betting they have done some kind of research that shows 4300K is a better color light for the human eye. Closest to natural sunlight?

2) The HID kit is brighter in low beam, but not as much as I was expecting, or would have hoped. Vecter thinks there is more of a gain than I. Still, I don't think he was completely 'WOW'ed. Perhaps 4300K color bulbs will increase the 'brightness'. Both vecter and I think they would.

3) There is really no difference in brightness in the high beam, and to me the HID kit 'narrows' the horizontal beam pattern ever so slightly in a negative way.

4) HID bulbs over time will do some bad things to the reflector. Hopefully, not to the point where they actually start degrading the brightness/beam pattern of the lights.

5) Solteks ROCK!!!! Boy, those things put out the lumens!

6) D&D exhaust (vecter's FJR) are raspy LOUD. Sound good for a while, but I don't know long term. Definitely louder than my Holeshots and won't be passing IBR inspection anytime soon.

Wish I could have provided better pics, but I have spent enough time on this project for now. It's done, until I get some different color bulbs. There's is no way I will stay with the current color.

 

[TestPilot]

Thank you fdor the research and great writeup. helps us to make our choices.

BTW - what did the occupants of the building say about you turning their night into day

 

[jekirby]

Just a fly by here, but your PHIDS look the same color as the 5000K HID's. Just an observation from an impartial party. Carry on. Hope you get it worked out.

ADD>>>>from the front view, not the garage door view.

 

[Fred W]

Very interesting Skooter! Especially the part about the reflector erosion, which has been mentioned as being linked to the use of HIDs previously. I know that my old headlight bucket, which saw about 1 years worth of HID use, had a much milder case of that same effect before it was replaced (deer crash damage). This has to be due to the increased temperature of the HID arc capsule during operation.

I do think that the HIDs throw quite a bit more light out. What you are calling "harshness" appears to be the increased contrast that comes to your eyes due to the increased light broadcast.

Look closely at these two pictures:

The HID picture shows much more contrast in the ground detail. Also note that the lights in the background are brighter in the Halogen picture. The camera has stopped down in the HID picture indicating it is receiving more total reflected light.

But then next question is, for how long would you have that increased light? If the upper part of the headlamp reflector gets eroded that will effect the lower part of the broadcast beam, which is just the part you really need in your low beams' pattern. Maybe VectorP1's lights used to be even better before the reflector was damaged?

More things to think about. Might just stick with my halogens and put the HIDs in my Jeep or something.

 

[carlson_mn]

Skooter,

your HIDs look identical to my 6k kit. I have 5k in my car and 4500k fogs in my car and there's a big difference beween them and the 6k in my bike. I love the look of the 6k but it's very true that they don't put out the warmer colored light of the the 4500 or 5k in my car. My 5k is just white with NO hint of blue. I got all of my gear from DDM tuning, and yes it is true that there can be significant deviations in color per pair of bulbs. Not all 5k look the same I've been told by many....

Here's a shot of my car.... different housings make little changes in the color... but it's a far cry from the 6k in my FJR, which looks just like yours and throws out that 'icy white with a hint of blue' onto the road. The 5k and 4.5k in my altima just makes the road look like daylight...

And here's a before and after shot compared to another Altima with OEM HID's...

My car is on the right in both pics. Notice how the OEM 4300k actually looks a bit bluer than my HIDs, but mine are also much brighter. The reason for this is that my HID kit is probably more wattage than the OEM, even though I opted for the 35w rather than optional 55watt kit. The more lumens of my HIDs washes out the color rating a bit...

my stock halogens on right

and after

low beams only, oem on left and my 5k on right.

Hope this helps a bit. If you can't sort things out for a bulb swap with your vendor, try www.ddmtuning.com ... they sell just high.low bulbs in just about any color that should fit your kit assuming the solednoid connection is the same.

PS - I only connected the high beam solenoid actuator on one of my bulbs... that way I don't lose so much of the light in front of the bike.

 

[vectervp1]

Fred, I don't think the erosion has to do with heat, but more with UV light. While I have absolutely nothing to base this off of, I think this because of the amount of light being given off and the way the erosion looks. The chrome isn't blistering, or showing any warping from heat, it just seems the chromed plastic is just fading away, kind of like anything else does exposed UV light does over long periods of time.

To add my two cents to this little experiment by Skoot, I have to say that his 5000k kit did put out more light than the halogens overall. When I first took out his DOW (dirty old whore), it seemed like there wasn't that much more light in front of me. This was while we were driving around in town with tons of other light around us. I felt that I was getting the same basic lighting that I was with halogens with the exception of anything retro reflective which just lit up like crazy.

When we got to a less light polluted street, I could really see where they were giving off more light. I felt it was close to what my 4300k kit put out, but with a more 'colored' light. The high beams to me were better, but it wasn't to the same magnitude better than the low beams. I could see more definition of what I was lighting up, but I couldn't necessarily see further out there.

As to the temp of these lights, I'd say they are definitely in the 5000k ballpark. I've also got a trick set of dual HID capsule H4 bulbs that are 5000k and the light I was seeing out of Skoot's kit looked like the same light. It has been a while since I've had them in, but it looked very similar to that.

I did want to add that I told Skoot I suspected his lights were aimed a bit high because it was annoying as fuck riding in front of him, even for the 3 or 4 miles that I did it. He was under the impression that the lights could be raised a little more.

For me personally after owning 3 different sets of HID H4 kits, 3 different HID aux lights, and various bulbs while experimenting, its 4300k lights for me.

 

[RadioHowie]

I think I've found the problem. SkooterG has pinpoint pupils that can't dilate at night.

Your welcome Skoot, :fuck: :rofl:

Where the hell have I seen that face before?

Oh yeah....

 

[FRJ Jc]

This is by no means an official test to tell you which one is brighter or not but something I noticed with all of my previous HID kits in my cars is that I would see road signs light up much further down the road then with my standard Halogen bulbs.

I would be interested in seeing the differences head to head instead as we sometimes want to make ourselves feel better about spending a few hundred bucks and fool oursleves into believe something is really better. LOL

My butt dyno has given me about an extra 100Hp in my old car. Ha ha...