Leaning out/in

[Bill Lumberg]

Will do.

 

[Rider]

Will do.

Me too, although I was going to do it anyway when the time came.

 

[FJR Bill]

Might as well sell it.It'll never handle like a 98 Guzzi.

I agree about the handling, but hey, I'll keep both of them thank you.

Bill

 

[tuggy]

Best explanation I've heard was from a trainer from Northampton.

On a straight road practice the feeling of lightly pushing down & forward on a bar at approx 45deg angle. Do side to side increasing speed as you go. Bike flicks side to side without any other body input. Once you're happy ride your favourite twisty roads.

You can the flick her about & add in knee/body movement as you feel more comfortable.

Practice, ride, practice, ride.

 

[Mr Bill]

Might as well sell it.It'll never handle like a 98 Guzzi.

Took me a few months to get used to the FJR too. It's a real pig that you can make fly. Found the front tire pressure is really important and suspension upgrade with adjustable shock on the rear opened up to lift the rear end a little makes it steer like a quick pig.

 

[Rider]

The roads were a little moist, but I was getting more comfortable and leading-leaning into the turns with the bike more, and then there was a wet tar snake that made the front wash. These things are becoming so numerous, like road graffiti.

 

[ApexGT]

Tires make all the difference in the world as well

 

[Bearly Flying]

Beyond all the technical aspects, Keep your eyes focused as far around the corner that you can.

"Where You look is where You go"

 

[DezzertRider]

Beyond all the technical aspects, Keep your eyes focused as far around the corner that you can.
"Where You look is where You go"

Best advice above and ride within your limits.

 

[russperry]

In a corner, the inside handlebar should be further away, not closer. In any event, the actual movement of the bars is minute.
What you are describing is a lack of confidence in your ability, and I would always recommend advanced rider training for things like this. Apart from teaching you new skills, or enhancing old ones, the training course are a great deal of fun.

Say what?

The inside handlebar is further only during the period to initiate the turn, once in the turn the inside handle must be closer. You couldn't make a left hand turn for very long without falling over if your handle bars are pointed any amount to the right.

This is not correct.

The bar moves away to initiate the turn, then back towards neutral to maintain the angle. If it moved back towards the rider you would be initiating a turn the other way, or straightening up the line.

Edit:

I'm going to expand on this because I know it is tricky to get your head around, and I struggled with it despite the fact that we ALL do this instinctively.

Okay ... With decent tires and the bike upright, and straight and level, it will run in a straight line until you stop. In order to initiate the turn you have to make the bike behave not like a cylinder (two wheels straight up), but more like a cone. Roll a conical shape on a flat surface and it will roll in circles ... we can all visualize that easily.

When you want to turn left, the dynamics of making the cone mean you have to push the left bar forwards. That points the front wheel right, but you don't go right because the bike "falls over" to the left. That initiates the turn.

What you do next is "stop the turn" radius decreasing. If you kept the same pressure the bike would either fall left, or turn in decreasing radius circles until it hit the ground. So the bar moves slightly back towards the rider just enough to maintain the constant radius you initiated.

Remember a body in motion will remain in constant motion unless you do something to change it. So the bar comes back just a little and you "feather" it to match the radius you want.

If the bar comes back too far, the bike sits up and tries to increase the radius of the turn until finally it is straight and upright again.

If at any time the left bar comes back BEYOND the neutral position, you are then initiating a turn to the right. Effectively you have made a cone sloping the other way. So in a left turn, the left bar is never closer to the rider than it would be in straight and level riding.

I dunno if that is clear as mud, or a decent explanation. In practise we do all this without much conscious thought, and the picture can be complicated by shifting your weight, road cambers, etc. Yet the theory remains sound. We push the left bar to go left, and push the right bar to go right. Getting it straight in your head allows some very rapid direction changes.

Next time you are on a quiet interstate try it. Get up to 70 mph. then use your "push" technique to slalom the white lane dividing lines. You can swerve rapidly and in total control even at high speeds. If you start with small movements you can quite easily build up to rapid changes in direction with complete confidence. Useful when that deer appears in front of you.

I suggest taking a look at the following picture

Marc Maruez' body is much closer to the inside grip than to the outside, as he's demonstrating the current standard of race technique. The body shift to the inside eliminates lean angle and allows much faster corner speeds than sitting upright. In this scenario, or a much milder version that non-aliens can manage, there is no reason that you would NOT feel that you're more close in to the bar on the inside of the corner. His chest looks to be about 3" from the right grip and his right arm bent nearly full in, and his chest is maybe 18" from the left grip and his left arm more fully extended. This is obviously extreme as MM won the MotoGP championship last year but the trend is the same for mere humans.

Now if you're doing as others suggest (riding straight up) there would be no reason to feel that way, but you're actually taking more risk as you're using more lean angle than someone who is using more aggressive body positioning and using the inside weighting to save lean angle.

Here's another picture that i love - two up at turn 3 on Thunderhill Raceway. the rider shows the same situation - closer to the inside bar and arm very bent, while further away from the outer bar and arm more extended. (Forget the girl with her shoulder and head almost on the ground - I don't recommend anyone try that on their FJR!)

Now if we don't want to talk about professional caliber racers, here's a picture of me on the track. I am slow and cautious and use up about 75% of available traction and lean angle because I don't want to wreck again, but the truth is the same - my body is closer to the inner bar than the outer. If you're using the widely accepted teachings on body positioning this will always be the case, even at non-racing speeds. Many people I talk to in the pits describe the same problem I have with right hand turns - since you're leaning in and getting closer to the throttle, your wrist starts to get into an unusual position as you bring your body lower and closer to the grip. You can probably imagine that as you look at Marquez' picture where his right hand is tucked in, and compare it to the yellow rider who's right forearm/wrist is nearly straight, leaving his throttle grip in a very neutral position.

To the OP - don't let people get you down by talking down to you about lack of skills and confidence. There are lots of sources of information out there and equal amounts of disinformation. Study various publications and photos of riding position and you'll be able to figure out truth from fiction for yourself.

 

[TomInPA]

I'm all in for reducing lean angle by keeping inside, but you're only as good as the road...and it's damn unforgiving. Loose gravel in curves, unexpected spills, drivers on the wrong side.

Even Russperry will recommend, leave room for the unexpected.

 

[russperry]

Yes Tom - you are correct - it's always better to have more safety margin than you need.

But less lean angle is safer even at lower speeds. If you hit oil at 10 degree lean it's going to be worse than if you were at zero. I don't think that most of us choose to hang off the bike in low lean angle conditions but it would give you more margin if you encountered anything unexpected around the next corner.

 

[TomInPA]

Totally agree Russ. It took me a long time of consistently practicing moving my center to the inside of turns, for it to feel natural and more automatic. I do it almost regardless of whether there is a need for it. I'll never be a knee dragger, but it really helps to get inside and stabilize the bike on the biggest contact patch possible.

 

[LKLD]

Of late, I've been experimenting. When riding alone, and on roads I'm infinitely experienced with, I will try to move my body to the inside and lean my torso onto the tank. The thing I've noticed so far is...it's much easier. I'll take a corner, at a speed that I'm familiar with riding straight up, and take it at that same speed with the new body adjustments, and for some reason it doesn't feel I'm going as fast around the corner. Now, it feels foreign to do for sure, but that's because it's something new I'm trying.

It's taken me some time to feel really comfortable on this bike, but now I do. My plan now is to look into advanced riding courses near me, to help me understand it more.

 

[Uncle Hud]

In brief, I was taught that when you take a left-hand corner,

1) you hang your left butt cheek off the bike -- that is, right butt cheek and thigh on the seat,

2) reach your chin towards your left grip while deeply bending the left elbow and wrist, and

3) keep your head as vertical as possible while looking at the exit point of the corner.

Item one moves your lower body towards the inside of the curve, item two moves your torso and head towards the inside of the curve, and item three ensures you're looking ahead for debris/potholes/obstacles on your intended line of travel. The deep elbow/wrist bend avoids throttle faux pas and keeps your fingers ready for lever duty. All together, they drastically reduce your lean angle.

Each of russperry's photos (post 49) show similar rider postures.

Do I ride like that? Very rarely, and never to Marc Maurez extremes, but if pavement conditions are sketchy or I feel froggy, it's nice to have practiced the technique.

 

[rwortman]

At sane street speeds, hanging off the bike is simply not required and not necessary. It is really for extracting that last bit of cornering performance. Any of the old school racers before the hang off revolution would ride rings around anyone here on any bike while sitting straight up in the saddle. That said, a bit of weight transfer towards the inside of the turn is useful in getting this heavy pig to handle.

 

[Geezer]

I agree that it should never be necessary to hang off the bike on the street. But, it sure can be invigorating to do that when I have the energy and concentration.

 

[TomInPA]

I think the take-away on this is, many of us tend to "counter-lean". It's a bad habit that is easy to fall into. Your vision stays level, but your don't commit to the inside of the curve. Lots of photos show riders on the wrong side of center in a curve. You may be looking through the turn, but if your upper body is outside the turn, you failed. I did it and the photos don't lie. I have made an effort to change that. This has nothing to do with racing, it's just good form and can give you that extra safety margin if and when you need it.

My sig picture shows how to do it wrong. It's a tough habit to break.

 

[TomInPA]

Calling myself out. Two years ago this picture was taken on a trip from CA to PA, and I vowed I would not fail like this again. Great lean angle...totally wrong body position. It takes some work to break this ridiculous habit.

 

[Twigg]

I'd probably have to remove the Russell to make this anatomically possible