Leaning out/in

[SacramentoMike]

So much information and so many opinions here, I just have to add some more, especially since what's here is extremely confusing, often contradictory, and sometimes just wrong. Simplest way to say it, if it wasn't the best way to ride, at least as far as current best thinking is concerned, why would ALL the top riders be doing it?

per Uncle Hud:

In brief, I was taught that when you take a left-hand corner,
1) you hang your left butt cheek off the bike -- that is, right butt cheek and thigh on the seat,

2) reach your chin towards your left grip while deeply bending the left elbow and wrist, and

3) keep your head as vertical as possible while looking at the exit point of the corner.

Item one moves your lower body towards the inside of the curve, item two moves your torso and head towards the inside of the curve, and item three ensures you're looking ahead for debris/potholes/obstacles on your intended line of travel. The deep elbow/wrist bend avoids throttle faux pas and keeps your fingers ready for lever duty. All together, they drastically reduce your lean angle.

I agree with everything Hud said, but I'll add one thing from Lee Parks' "Total Control" class, step ONE of his Ten Steps to Proper Cornering: "Reposition Foot" pull your inside foot back as you approach a turn so only the ball of your foot is on the peg. Awful things can happen to your foot, or all the rest of you, if that gets caught hanging under the peg, or even if the road kicks your foot back off the peg.

Parks' course, and his book, are titled Total Control--High Performance Street Riding Techniques (emphasis added). It's all about the technique, which he teaches you should use all the time, whatever kind of roads or riding. It's written for the street rider because everybody should be doing it. The second step, by the way, is "Pre-Position Body". As part of this step, Parks says, "The important rule here is to keep the centerline of your upper body to the inside of your bike's centerline." My emphasis again. Best illustration of this is Russperry's first pic above, but it's not necessary for you to do it the way Marc Marquez is doing it in the picture.

To illustrate that, just one more quote from Parks: ". . . on the other hand, if you are riding a cruiser or tourer and don't want to radically hang off the bike, simply do the minimum necessary to follow the rules (he means his Ten Steps), and you will significantly improve your ability to control the bike."

I took his course, and ever since, I apply his ten rules for cornering pretty much every single time I go around a curve--usually just that "mininum necessary," but always at least that minimum. It's good practice, and becomes natural fast. And by the way, I'll add a strong recommendation to see when this course is offered near you, and also to buy the book. $20 here, on Amazon.

At sane street speeds, hanging off the bike is simply not required and not necessary. It is really for extracting that last bit of cornering performance. Any of the old school racers before the hang off revolution would ride rings around anyone here on any bike while sitting straight up in the saddle. That said, a bit of weight transfer towards the inside of the turn is useful in getting this heavy pig to handle.

Don't agree with any of that, except the last sentence. If it's useful, why not make it a habit? Makes it a lot easier to "extract that last bit of cornering performance" when you really need it. How else will you be able to do it then, if it isn't natural to you?

 

[bluesdog]

...step ONE of his Ten Steps to Proper Cornering: "Reposition Foot" pull your inside foot back as you approach a turn so only the ball of your foot is on the peg. Awful things can happen to your foot, or all the rest of you, if that gets caught hanging under the peg, or even if the road kicks your foot back off the peg.

In the course of negotiating the very nice sweeping s-curve on my initial ride home on my feej, my left toe brushed the pavement, and I realized I had lost the habit of placing the balls of my feet on the pegs. I quickly re-acquired it!

There are plenty of twisties around here, so I practise my lean in every ride. The RDL makes it a bit difficult to slide my a$$ off the seat, but at least I always shift my torso into the curve. It really makes cornering easier, and funner, too!

 

[FJR Bill]

Glad to see this thread is alive. Still lot's of interesting posts. As the OP my conclusion is my cornering issues are all about geometry on the FJR. Why? Because I don't have the same issues on my other bikes. So for me I accept I'll not be able to be as aggressive in the twisties on the FJR compared to my other bikes. I'm ok with that because at 67 years old I need to slow down anyway. While my younger buddies might have to wait for me at the next stop sign, I'll have enjoyed the ride on a more comfortable platform. I love the FJR for long distance cross country rides twisty roads or not.

Bill

 

[wheatonFJR]

Glad to see this thread is alive. Still lot's of interesting posts. As the OP my conclusion is my cornering issues are all about geometry on the FJR. Why? Because I don't have the same issues on my other bikes. So for me I accept I'll not be able to be as aggressive in the twisties on the FJR compared to my other bikes. I'm ok with that because at 67 years old I need to slow down anyway. While my younger buddies might have to wait for me at the next stop sign, I'll have enjoyed the ride on a more comfortable platform. I love the FJR for long distance cross country rides twisty roads or not. Bill

What bikes do you ride with?

 

[FJR Bill]

Glad to see this thread is alive. Still lot's of interesting posts. As the OP my conclusion is my cornering issues are all about geometry on the FJR. Why? Because I don't have the same issues on my other bikes. So for me I accept I'll not be able to be as aggressive in the twisties on the FJR compared to my other bikes. I'm ok with that because at 67 years old I need to slow down anyway. While my younger buddies might have to wait for me at the next stop sign, I'll have enjoyed the ride on a more comfortable platform. I love the FJR for long distance cross country rides twisty roads or not.

Bill

What bikes do you ride with?

DL1000, BMW 1200 R, BMW R1200RS, Yami Tennare. I can and usually stay ahead of my friends on my 1100 Guzzi. Not so on the FJR. Not complaining, the ergo's don't work for me when hammering the twisties. No doubt I could change things like handle bars, suspension etc to improve things. But like I said I'm ok being at the end of the pac when on the FJR. It has so many attributes for long distance riding.

Bill

 

[glory racing]

ok...I'll play.

It sounds to me like you are just not yet comfortable with the FJR. It took me a while to trust it after riding other lighter machines. Simply put...it will stick and in time you will trust it. Once I trusted mine my pace returned to previous levels. Riding comfortably(mentally not physically) is the key to riding smooth and confident. And based on experience the FJR will run through the twisties just as fast or faster than the bikes you listed. Give it some time and you will love the FJR and be waiting on your buddies again.

Regarding body position you can get caught up in the; do this, not that, this here, that over there, lean, slide your butt, don't lean, etc. The simplest instruction I received and still use today as I sit upright on the bike...Lead with your nose. Nice and simple and easy to concentrate on. Invest some time on your next ride to insure your nose is the first thing to the direction you want to travel. That will shift your upper body correctly. Once that is intuitive you can focus on other tactics.

 

[FJRRYDER]

Dang! Lot's of info here! Like it was said, hanging off invites LEO attention around here, and there is plenty of it. "The Snake" portion of Mulholland Hwy is full of them on weekends, and for good reason. Photogs cluster at some of the most famous turns, Dead Man's Curve is one, so I ride with my butt planted on the seat, my head tilted and shifted to the inside, my chin pointed at where I want to go, my shoulders turned just a little, a technique I first learned in skiing, keeping The Pace. Slow in, fast out. Hardly touch the brakes, and don't shift much. Stay in third gear mostly, except for the decreasing radius hairpins. There's my 2 cents.

 

[Fred W]

Most of the "hanger offers" I see are not getting as much advantage from it that they think they are. Instead, after they shift their butt to the inside, they tend to be "crossed up" and have their torso leaning back towards center. Here's a photo of Freddie Spencer in what was the body position back in the day that shows an example this.

Notice how his head, and therefore his shoulders are actually centered over the bike, and only his lower body is far to the inside. Many street riders who slide their butts will adopt an even worse position since the butt won't be as far off and the head and shoulders will often go beyond the bike center.

I think a lot of that happens due to the (oft repeated) advice to "keep your eyes level with the horizon." Trying to keep your eyes level and your torso down to the inside is virtually impossible. I know it is supposed to increase your confidence level by keeping their head straight, but after you allow your head to tilt for a while you get used to the changing horizon and it isn't all that disorienting.

The higher the body part is, the more important it is to get that mass to the inside of center. That's why I think for on-street riding you are better off just leaving your butt planted in the seat and just shifting your head and shoulders down and inside to "kiss the mirrors".

It is amazing how much you can straighten up the lean angle just by shifting your upper body with no butt sliding required. As Glory Racing said above, just lead into the corner with your nose.

 

[Uncle Hud]

+1 on FredW's post and his annotated selfie, and the historical photo of his Honda riding days as "Freddie".

+1 on The Pace, too. With cruise control, you can ride The Pace with no subconscious cheating.

 

[FJR Bill]

Fred's post is the most informative so far for street riding.

Thansk, Bill

 

[Bill Lumberg]

I passed a Honda motorsports semi yesterday. Huge picture of a guy in sparkly leathers hanging his butt off a bike, but with his torso and head leaned back toward the bike. I laughed.

 

[SunRider]

Maybe your right but in my post I mentioned these issues I'm encountering are unique to the FJR and me. On other bikes I've owned I do not have the same issues. I've been riding for about 55 years and I'm not sure this old dog can learn new tricks.

Take Hwy 28 in NC for example. On previous bikes, hardly any of my fellow riders could stay with me. On my FJR, I'm now the slowest of my buddies. Otherwise I love the bike and many suggestion on this thread will be explored. Suspension upgrades might be first on my list. Tire selection might be next. Currently using PR2's.They feel good new but not so good when worn. Lot's of good info provided on this thread.

Bill

No worries Bill, the stock gen2 FJR is OK in handling on fresh tires and off the front brake in the corners.

(Can't speak to the expensive suspension upgrades.)

Half worn tires, especially the front, turns the FJR into a pig.

Trail braking using the fronts stands the bike up big time. Rear pedal works a wonder here.

Accept it's not a sportbike and all is well.

 

[FJRRYDER]

I see a lot of riders, even pictures in ads for major bike products, doing the "crossed-up" or "counter-weight" body position. Dramatic pics of motojournalists testing and doing comparo's, all crossed-weighted, which is a good dirt technique, but not street. Back in the day, no one spent much time discussing the fine points of cornering, we all just threw our weight to the side and did it.

 

[Fred W]

Actually, for dirt riding you intentionally want to throw everything that you ever learned about body position for on-road riding out the window, and do pretty much the opposite. You intentionally want to keep your upper body and head more upright than the bike, and push the bike down into the corner while applying power. This promotes a rear slide, which allows you to throttle steer around the bend.

The extended inside leg is not to act as an outrigger like in flat track, or so you can dab if the rear kicks out too far, though that happens sometimes; it's to move some weight to the inside of the turn without leaning your upper body that way.

 

[Mr Bill]

It is amazing how much you can straighten up the lean angle just by shifting your upper body with no butt sliding required. As Glory Racing said above, just lead into the corner with your nose.

Sliding your butt off on the street also commits you to hanging off on that corner. On the street unexpected things happen and you will have a hard time changing lines with your butt hanging.

I put my belly into my corners. That's most of my weight!

I can never keep up with S76 in the tight stuff and he uses his dirt bike technique of pushing the bike down and staying upright. I guess I'd better grow my investment and get a bigger belly

 

[glory racing]

My son progressed through the amateur MX scene to pro Arenacross and Supercross. We spent "lots" of time and effort working on techniques and shaving tenth's. We were taught to weight your outside peg and place the crack of your butt on the edge of the seat 'opposite' your turn direction. Dirtbikes do not have an issue with ground clearance...they are the leaniest! Have seen the boy actually create a line in a corner with his handlebar grip.

Unrelated to body position, One of the best pieces of advise we received was, "you gotta slow down to go faster".

 

[FJRJOE]

Get the video or book....twist of the wrist ..by keith code....will answer lots of questions

 

[rwortman]

Yeah, that Freddy Spencer guy couldn't ride for beans.