Lithium Batteries: What You Need To Know

Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum

Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Yes, Nanahanman, apparently paying double for a battery that saves a couple pounds, may not start your bike in the cold, and will only last two years is an "upgrade." People are amazed that these batteries "spin" their bikes' starters faster. Seems to me, every new battery I have ever installed spun the starter faster than the dying battery it replaced. I don't get it either, but it's not my money.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can certainly understand your viewpoints. For me, I have upgraded, farkled, and lightened all of my bikes. IMHO, the biggest benefit to lithium batteries is the weight savings. I look at upgrades like that the way a backpacker sees his kit. Any one weight saving upgrade is insignificant by itself, but when you add up several weight saving upgrades it becomes significant.

Between swapping out the battery with a lithium and stock cans for Holeshot cans I think it probably dropped 35-40 pounds off the bike.

Lately, I have even been leaving my OEM trunk at home and using a Green Chile Adventure Gear Bag Snake Kit and an NRS dry bag when I need extra space. That save another 10 pounds or so...maybe more and it moves the weight lower too.

When it all adds up it becomes significant. With that being said, some riders just don't care about that and that's cool too.

 
Considering it's a "touring" bike that weighs 650 lbs wet,and it has luggage that is probably full of stuff, droping a liitle weight on the battery seems a bit ...optimistic.

When I was racing cars, we looked at reducing 10lbs as gaining 1 HP. So with the 145hp FJR, you would gain 1HP with a lighter battery.

It is true that a lot of small weight saving can add up and changing the exhaust system would definately be noticable , but the battery....not so much.

Did I mention it's a touring bike?

Now if it was a smaller, lighter sport bike and you were canyon carving, I would be on board with weight saving.

In the end, it's not my money and people can do what they like, but to me, this Li battery upgrage for weight saving seems a bit of a streach.

It would be cheaper by a long shot for me to just diet and loose weight
smile.png


 
Once someone shows me a LiFePO4 battery that has a REAL capacity of at least 12 a-hr (not PB/EQ),and a CCA of at least 210 amps based on SAE J537, that is actually done at cold temperatures, for a price under $200, I'll get back in.

At this point the manufacturers, starting with Shorai are smoke and mirrors and using false basis for rating their battery's capacity and CCA. I think it is just absurd that these companies are allowed to create their own fictitious test protocols and that otherwise smart people spend more than twice the price for less than half as much.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Damn. I didn't realize that trying a new technology battery was such a contentious issue. Fer chrissakes, perhaps we should throw a discussion of abortion into the mix.

FWIW I got my Shorai and a charger for less than I would have paid for a replacement Yuasa battery. For me its an experiment. A luddite I am not. Am interested to see how it performs and any limitations I may find.

I'm sorry if that causes some of you stress and general fucking grouchiness.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The video is a bit wrong.

He's measuring at room temperature, ie hot crank amps and not cold crank @ - 0.18 C.

Also the standard test is for 30 seconds @ 7.2 Volts.

So the results would even be worse than that on the video.

 
Damn. I didn't realize that trying a new technology battery was such a contentious issue. Fer chrissakes, perhaps we should throw a discussion of abortion into the mix.
FWIW I got my Shorai and a charger for less than I would have paid for a replacement Yuasa battery. For me its an experiment. A luddite I am not. Am interested to see how it performs and any limitations I may find.

I'm sorry if that causes some of you stress and general fucking grouchiness.
It's not the trying of a new technology that I am commenting on. By all means, have at er and test some of this stuff out.

But saying it's for weight saving on a 650 lb bike...riiiiiight

It's the same as changing to "new technology" LED light retrofits. If they don't quite work as well as the stock technology, why do it.

Amyway, it's all just talk
smile.png


 
Relatively new technology and some distinct advantages and disadvantages...

On the plus side:

Very much higher energy density than lead-acid batteries, although maybe not as great as they say

Very low weight to fulfill the required mission

Very long self-discharge time

Can be long-lived if not abused (i.e. no deep discharge and keep cells balanced)

Environmentally, much friendlier than lead-based systems

Can deliver high current; especially the newer generations

Should have greater vibration tolerance, especially compared to "wet" lead-acid

Able to deliver high current when close to depleted. This may be the source of the "Lead acid equivalent"

Negative:

Very intolerant of deep discharge

Relatively fussy about charge conditions and cell balance

They do not play well with cold weather - it's chemistry folks and this will remain an on-going issue

Currently more expensive

The claimed vs actual ampere-hour rating is due to PR crap. It may be that their excuse (not science) is that the lithium battery is better at maintaining voltage (and current delivery) when its closer to being discharged. Lead acid batteries continue to pump out the amps but with substantially reduced voltage as they run down. The lead-acid may have more ampere hours (honestly measured) but they may not be useful for starting anything if the voltage is too low (i.e. turning over a high compression engine). I guess the assertion of "equivalent" is somewhat justified if you simply look at the battery's ability to fulfill its mission but other terms should be used!

Why does a battery need high ampere-hour rating? Unless there is an issue with the bike, it only uses a TINY fraction of the battery's capacity to start the engine. Once it is running, the battery is rapidly replenished. Higher ampere-hour batteries really only have a value if you have a problem with starting and need to do a lot of cranking. They might also get you further down the road if there is a failure of the charging system. I guess they might also save your bacon if you regularly do bone-headed stuff like leaving stuff turned on with the engine not running. Higher rating in this area may allow you to run longer in an energy deficit situation like running more accessory stuff (heated gear, lights etc) than the charging system can supply. Under ideal conditions with a properly functioning bike and not being stupid with extra power draws, there is no reason why a 5 amp-hour battery wouldn't work perfectly as long as it could supply its amps without a large voltage drop. The fact is that, due to it's properties, a low capacity lead-acid will have too much voltage drop whereas a low capacity lithium battery could be OK.

The claim of CCA (cold cranking amps) is an absolute LIE. They MIGHT start the tests under the appropriate conditions but not collect data until the battery has had a chance to "wake up". What they mean is that they have put a load on the battery to warm it before taking measurements so, effectively, the testis not carried out under the required conditions. While you may be able to get an effective start if conditions are not too severe, it is NOT a CCA measurement! The other (major) downside of planning on a couple of warming start attempts is that you are killing your starter. With low voltage, you are drawing high current and cooking the starter and solenoid contacts. Perhaps a "lights on" wakeup rather than cold start is a better idea for both the starter and the bike's electronics.

Really, the biggest problem with the lithium is its inability to work well when cold. If you are happy with not running it under extreme conditions and are prepared to pre-heat the battery with an external load, it might be right for you. I have eight years and almost 130,000 miles on my OEM Yuasa. I'm not particularly tempted to switch when it comes time to replace it (quite possibly this year).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm sure I'll jynx myself by stating this, but I have the same battery on my bike that it had when I bought it used in '09. Never been on a charger, sits in an unheated garage for almost 6 months a year. Has started every time. I have no idea what brand/model it is. The only thing I run besides the bike itself is power to a GPS.
Of course, when the arctic thaw finally comes later this spring, now that I've put this out there, it will probably be deader'n a door nail...
dead.gif
Sounds to me like brother-inlaw maintenance
not_i.gif


 
Ionbeam, what temperatures are considered "COLD" when evaluating the Lithium Ion batteries?

As a practical matter, few operate their motorcycles when the outside temp is below 35f.

32f for certain, especially in the presence of moisture, so if the Lithium Ion works well at those temps what would be the problem other than being susceptible to deep discharge related failures.

In the Road Star Warrior world I came from, high compression, large 1700cc displacement, on a bike blessed with an inadequate OEM battery and a small battery box, the Shorai was quite popular as a replacement. Just wondering about the practical limits of the lithium ion battery.

 
At >40ºF the LiFe batteries have about hit the lowest real world temperature before the rider has to start making changes to their starting procedure. By 30ºF all most all LiFe users will notice that the battery isn't delivering 100%. Shorai's propaganda claims that their battery will perform normally until around 20ºF and then the battery may need to be 'warmed up' before it will spin up the engine at a more normal cranking speed. Shorai does continue to work on the cold cranking thing (not calling it an issue or problem) so the next crop of batteries may perform better than the ones we are writing about today. As bigj' notes, the engine and starter design (electrical and mechanical gear advantage) will make a difference to the point where the battery will appear to be flat.

Battery testing has industry standards for all aspects of battery performance. Cold Cranking Amp testing is defined by standard SAE J537. This testing procedure specifies the battery preparation and the actual testing for the CCA value. The SAE J537 CCA test mandates that a fully charged battery is cooled to 0°F for 24 hours, then while at 0°F apply a high-current discharge that simulates the cranking of an engine. A 210 CCA battery would need to supply 210A for 30 seconds and battery voltage must stay above 7.2V (1.2V/cell) to pass. If it fails the test, the battery has a CCA rating of less than 210A. To find the CCA rating, the test must be repeated several times with different current settings to find the point where the battery passes through 7.2V line. Between each test, the battery must be brought to ambient temperature for recharging and cooled again for testing.

Note in the battery testing video in an earlier post; they were loading the battery until voltage dropped down to 9.0 volts, this is not a valid CCA test. As much as the maker of the video derides Shorai for 'fake claims', their test does not actually test the battery to the J537 standard. Also, note that the LiFe has a nominal cell voltage of 3.2 volts whereas a PbSO4 battery has a a cell voltage of 2.04 volts. The J537 standard is written for a PbSO4 battery where during a CCA test the voltage is allowed to sag to 1.2 volts per cell (40%). The LiFe battery starts off with 3.2 volts per cell so it is actually allowed to discharge to a significantly lower voltage which is actually unfairly stacked in favor of the LiFe battery to show better CCA numbers. The LiFe battery is allowed to discharge nearly 70%.

Batteries have two primary electrical attributes, battery capacity and Cold Cranking Amps. Battery capacity is essentially how much current the battery can provide over a protracted length of time. Battery CCA is how much current the battery can deliver over a very short length of time. It is an issue to get batteries to pass extremely high current, this is one of the areas where battery design enters into design black magic that sets one manufacturer apart from another. All the various LiFe manufacturers will have their own recipe for how the battery pole pieces are doped with trace elements and how the cells are electrically strapped together. These two design features make a world of difference in how and how much of the huge slugs of current which is needed for starting can be delivered out of the battery terminals.

LiFe batteries have a higher cell voltage which will spin starter motors faster for an easier start, are lighter, in theory will last longer and perhaps most significant for people where it gets hot, LiFe batteries should not degrade the way a PbSO4 battery will.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
It has been near 45 years, but in my Basic Auto Elelectrical class I was taught that PBSO4 batteries ( wet cell lead acid batteries) nominal fully charged cell voltage was 2.2 volts, thus yielding 13.2 volts for a fully charged battery. Our standard of performance was 9.0 volts battery voltage after 30 seconds of cranking, 9.0 volts being the minimum required to get a points and condenser ignition system to provide sufficientspark to make the typical eengine start and run.

The limited research I've done leads me to believe that the 9.0 volt minimum is still valid in today's world.

I believe the 7.0 JS537 standard is low. I don't believe an engine will start with only 7.0 volts available no matter what the ignition system.

In any case I thank you for your explanation, I cannot envision needing to start and ride my bike at 0

 
At >40ºF the LiFe batteries have about hit the lowest real world temperature before the rider has to start making changes to their starting procedure. By 30ºF all most all LiFe users will notice that the battery isn't delivering 100%. Shorai's propaganda claims that their battery will perform normally until around 20ºF and then the battery may need to be 'warmed up' before it will spin up the engine at a more normal cranking speed. Shorai does continue to work on the cold cranking thing (not calling it an issue or problem) so the next crop of batteries may perform better than the ones we are writing about today. As bigj' notes, the engine and starter design (electrical and mechanical gear advantage) will make a difference to the point where the battery will appear to be flat.
Battery testing has industry standards for all aspects of battery performance. Cold Cranking Amp testing is defined by standard SAE J537. This testing procedure specifies the battery preparation and the actual testing for the CCA value. The SAE J537 CCA test mandates that a fully charged battery is cooled to 0°F for 24 hours, then while at 0°F apply a high-current discharge that simulates the cranking of an engine. A 210 CCA battery would need to supply 210A for 30 seconds and battery voltage must stay above 7.2V (1.2V/cell) to pass. If it fails the test, the battery has a CCA rating of less than 210A. To find the CCA rating, the test must be repeated several times with different current settings to find the point where the battery passes through 7.2V line. Between each test, the battery must be brought to ambient temperature for recharging and cooled again for testing.

Note in the battery testing video in an earlier post; they were loading the battery until voltage dropped down to 9.0 volts, this is not a valid CCA test. As much as the maker of the video derides Shorai for 'fake claims', their test does not actually test the battery to the J537 standard. Also, note that the LiFe has a nominal cell voltage of 3.2 volts whereas a PbSO4 battery has a a cell voltage of 2.04 volts. The J537 standard is written for a PbSO4 battery where during a CCA test the voltage is allowed to sag to 1.2 volts per cell (40%). The LiFe battery starts off with 3.2 volts per cell so it is actually allowed to discharge to a significantly lower voltage which is actually unfairly stacked in favor of the LiFe battery to show better CCA numbers. The LiFe battery is allowed to discharge nearly 70%.

Batteries have two primary electrical attributes, battery capacity and Cold Cranking Amps. Battery capacity is essentially how much current the battery can provide over a protracted length of time. Battery CCA is how much current the battery can deliver over a very short length of time. It is an issue to get batteries to pass extremely high current, this is one of the areas where battery design enters into design black magic that sets one manufacturer apart from another. All the various LiFe manufacturers will have their own recipe for how the battery pole pieces are doped with trace elements and how the cells are electrically strapped together. These two design features make a world of difference in how and how much of the huge slugs of current which is needed for starting can be delivered out of the battery terminals.

LiFe batteries have a higher cell voltage which will spin starter motors faster for an easier start, are lighter, in theory will last longer and perhaps most significant for people where it gets hot, LiFe batteries should not degrade the way a PbSO4 battery will.
Once again, very well written. Technical information that even a non-electrical guy like me can understand.

Thanks.

 
It has been near 45 years, but in my Basic Auto Elelectrical class I was taught that PBSO4 batteries ( wet cell lead acid batteries) nominal fully charged cell voltage was 2.2 volts, thus yielding 13.2 volts for a fully charged battery. Our standard of performance was 9.0 volts battery voltage after 30 seconds of cranking, 9.0 volts being the minimum required to get a points and condenser ignition system to provide sufficientspark to make the typical eengine start and run. The limited research I've done leads me to believe that the 9.0 volt minimum is still valid in today's world. I believe the 7.0 JS537 standard is low. I don't believe an engine will start with only 7.0 volts available no matter what the ignition system. In any case I thank you for your explanation, I cannot envision needing to start and ride my bike at 0
Yes, 7.0V is too low to be useful.

What is useful is that when all are tested to the same standard, we can directly compare them.

 
My guess would be because it is a more severe discharge of the battery, and so it makes relative comparisons more dramatic and therefore easier to differentiate. The test does not need to be based on the actual likely circumstances to be able to make relative comparisons.

For instance, your FJR will not necessarily draw 210 amps while starting when cold, so why do we care that the battery is rated at 210 CCA?

We care because the overhead of having that much ampacity available insures the thing will do the job well at more normal temperatures and currents.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Latest posts

Top