One push, 2 pushes, n pushes later...

[Roy Epperson]

On an '07A this just started happening, press the starter button no cranking, ABS light on, yellow light and engine symbol displays on multifunction display. Press the starter one or more times and the engine starts.

So far this afternoon, once having started it starts immediately. New battery, will check charge and battery connections but cranks with gusto. Doesn't sound like weak battery or battery connections. Hear relay click when button pushed. Bike's in neutral

What might be happening?

TIA,

Roy

 

[ionbeam]

...ABS light on, yellow light and engine symbol displays on multifunction display...cranks with gusto...Hear relay click when button pushed. Bike's in neutral

Your FJR may be inviting you to shop for a starter. The symptoms you list muddies the water a bit.

How many miles on the bike?

Why is the battery new?

Does the check engine light go out after ~3 seconds (without cranking the engine)?

Does the clock and trip odometer reset? Or, is your clock wrong?

Do you have a volt meter? If yes, can you use it?

The thing that shouts STARTER

is hearing the starter relay click but the starter motor doesn't spin. It *might* be the starter relay which brings us back to the volt meter question.

 

[Roy Epperson]

...ABS light on, yellow light and engine symbol displays on multifunction display...cranks with gusto...Hear relay click when button pushed. Bike's in neutral

Your FJR may be inviting you to shop for a starter. The symptoms you list muddies the water a bit.

How many miles on the bike?

75,000

Why is the battery new?

Replace original last year before going on a long trip

Does the check engine light go out after ~3 seconds (without cranking the engine)?

Yes

Does the clock and trip odometer reset? Or, is your clock wrong?

No and No

Do you have a volt meter? If yes, can you use it?

Yep, and yep. Battery had 12.3V after several attempted and actual starts. Currently on charger.

The thing that shouts STARTER

is hearing the starter relay click but the starter motor doesn't spin. It *might* be the starter relay which brings us back to the volt meter question.

 

[Twigg]

If all the connections are clean and tight, the best indicator of starter damage is a clamp-on ammeter.

Starter should draw around 70 to 80 amps while cranking ... over 100 amps and it is suffering high internal resistance ie ... faulty.

It is still possible, btw, that the problem could be in the solenoid switch. Swapping out for a known good one is the best way to test that ... It doesn't have to be an FJR item, any starter solenoid can be hooked up.

 

[ionbeam]

Just a quick stab at it. The fact that the meter doesn't reset is kinda telling about the current draw.

We could start at the battery and work down to the starter motor, which I normally would do as structured troubleshooting, but in this case I think it would be worth the effort to start at the starter relay.

Put the volt meter across the starter relay terminals (not the connectors) and measure the voltage when the starter button is pressed. Anything >12 volts is a pass. If it passes this test go to the next step.

(The R/R 14 ga wire goes to the starter relay input post, the heavy battery red cable connects to the same input post so it should always be battery voltage.)

Put the black meter lead on any known good ground and put the red lead on the starter relay output terminal. Press the starter, anything less than 9 volts is a starter relay failure. If the output is > 8 volts but the starter didn't spin it's time to check the starter.

Edit: Twigg posted while I was typing. Indeed a clamp on amp probe is the perfect tool to troubleshoot this kind of problem but a DC amp probe is an unusual item in a normal person's tool box. What does it say that I have one... Clamp on the probe, push button - 60-80 amps is normal. >100 amps the starter is bad. <40 amps either the starter or starter relay is bad. A quick check with an ohm meter can sort that out.

 

[Roy Epperson]

Dumb question #1, where is the starter relay located?

Disconnected battery leads. Ground was tight, positive was "finger loose" (turned screwdriver with light finger pressure). Contact surfaces were dirty but no corrosion or heat, cleaned and re-assembled.

At the moment, it's starting immediately.

Once I figure out where and how to get to relay I'll check the voltages there. Might have to wait for a "cold bike" to duplicate the problem

 

[Twigg]

Dumb question #1, where is the starter relay located?
Disconnected battery leads. Ground was tight, positive was "finger loose" (turned screwdriver with light finger pressure). Contact surfaces were dirty but no corrosion or heat, cleaned and re-assembled.

At the moment, it's starting immediately.

Once I figure out where and how to get to relay I'll check the voltages there. Might have to wait for a "cold bike" to duplicate the problem

Finger loose would be sufficient to raise the resistance a lot.

Monitor it for a while, but that loose connection was probably the issue.

 

[Roy Epperson]

Finger loose would be sufficient to raise the resistance a lot.
Monitor it for a while, but that loose connection was probably the issue.

Hope so.....

Thanks for the pointers. Where is the starter relay hidden?

 

[Twigg]

Dunno. Haven't dug that far into the FJR yet. Just follow the thick red wire from the battery, it will be the thing it is attached to at the other end.

Normally they would have put it right next to the battery, but I guess it could be on the other side.

 

[mcatrophy]

Finger loose would be sufficient to raise the resistance a lot.

Monitor it for a while, but that loose connection was probably the issue.

Hope so.....

(Click on image for larger view)

Thanks for the pointers. Where is the starter relay hidden?

On my '06 it was just behind the battery:

 

[rbentnail]

It's an '07, has the ignition switch recall been done?

 

[Roy Epperson]

Finger loose would be sufficient to raise the resistance a lot.

Monitor it for a while, but that loose connection was probably the issue.

Hope so.....

(Click on image for larger view)

Thanks for the pointers. Where is the starter relay hidden?

On my '06 it was just behind the battery:

thanks for the link. forgot to look that direction!

It's an '07, has the ignition switch recall been done?

Yep, plus Brodie's second prototype ignition bypass

 

[Roy Epperson]

Well loose connection on positive is not the problem! Went out to try it this morning, finally after many button pushes it started. But until then, when I held the starter button, I hear a not loud sound like a fan/motor running, check engine symbol and light flash until I quit pushing the button. Once it starts, it continues to start.

Sounds like the "?bendix?" spring is not engaging the starter?

 

[Harald]

Could it have been the starter relay chattering? Your symptoms sound exactly like mine when I had a bad starter relay on my high mileage 07. If you hear the starter relay click, then the circuit is complete through the relay coil but we don't know for sure whether the main contacts are actually making contact. Use Ionbeam's relay tests to find out if the main contacts are good or not.

 

[Donal]

Well loose connection on positive is not the problem! Went out to try it this morning, finally after many button pushes it started. But until then, when I held the starter button, I hear a not loud sound like a fan/motor running, check engine symbol and light flash until I quit pushing the button. Once it starts, it continues to start.
Sounds like the "?bendix?" spring is not engaging the starter?

I suspect that this is the fuel pump running................

Does it stop after a few seconds?

 

[ionbeam]

I suspect that this is the fuel pump running................Does it stop after a few seconds?

I agree, it sounds like the fuel pump. Because the relay doesn't chatter (buzz) I believe the coil voltage always remains above 8 volts*. I don't think it drops below 8 volts because the trip odometer and clock apparently don't reset. What we need to know is the voltage on the wire that connects the starter relay to the starter motor when the button is pushed.

*If the voltage drops much below this the coil part of the relay falls below the 'drop-out' voltage causing the relay to switch off. As soon as it switches off the voltage goes up, allowing the relay to pull-in again. Which then drops the voltage below the drop-out point.... This condition will continue until the starter button is released. You hear the drop-out/pull-in/drop-out/pull-in as a chattering, buzzing or clicking sound coming from the starter relay.

 

[Roy Epperson]

Going to replace the relay. Activation voltage is good.

Unfortunately once relay engages, it works fine unless the "bike is cold" - don't try for multiple hours later.