What are the symptoms of a shot starter?

[luvtoride]

Actually, if I were to get a new(er) bike, it probably would be an '07. I happen to like the color... although, you do not want me to buy it now unless you're looking for me to default on a loan. lol! I'm ok with what I've got. It runs well & it's paid for... if I can just get this pesky problem worked out all will be good with the world for now. I would like a new(er) bike soon, though.

 

[wfooshee]

Walt, ...and you know it's the starter based on what?

Based on how exactly like my experience hers is. I obviously don't have 100% certainty, but I pointed out how to tell:

Tellin' ya, it's the starter. Buy, borrow, steal, beg a friend, whatever. Check the cranking amps!

Don't have to pull anything out to do that......

 

[Fred W]

I think we all agree on that. Check the cranking amps!

My fingers are crossed (for Heidi's sake) that they will be low.

 

[Lou D]

luvtoride, I just had the exact same problem. A new battery did the trick for me. Good luck.

 

[luvtoride]

I've had a couple of new batteries since having this issue. That's what is making me think it's something else.

 

[ionbeam]

All along we have been saying that the starter symptoms are the same for a weak/bad battery as for a failing starter.

The starter has brushes that carry power and ground to the starter motor. The starter motor has several windings with each end of a winding going to an electrical contact technically called a commutator. The brushes contact the commutators supplying power to one end of the winding and the other brush supplying ground to the other end of the winding. This causes the motor to turn inside the magnetic field around the motor armature. This causes the brushes to contact another set of windings which spins the motor, and so on and so on until 12 volts is finally removed from the brushes (by taking your thumb off the starter button).

There are small gaps between the commutator segments which over time start to fill up with tiny worn bits off the brushes which are conductive. The slow build-up of brush debris between the segments causes electrical shorting to take place between the commutators. The shorting is what causes the excess current draw in a failing starter motor. If a seal for the armature starts to leak motor oil it will mix with the brush debris and together they make a thick conductive paste which causes additional shorting. It isn't uncommon for the FJR's armature seals to leak.

Starter motors draw a lot of current even when good. As a battery ages it develops several bad things such as plate sulfation, warped plates, changing electrolyte specific gravity and damage to plate interconnections. The battery may be able to deliver small amount of current over a long period but is unable to deliver a huge amount of current in a very short time. You charge the battery and put it under load and the battery seems fine, it runs the headlights for an hour or it can even run your GPS over night (that you forgot to turn off). But, the battery is unable to deliver 30-60 amps instantly when the starter button is pressed. The starter motor will not get sufficient current to start turning and it will look exactly like having a shorting commutator drawing >80 amps.

 

[FJReady]

I hope there isn't an exam at the end of this course, purfessor. I admit to daydreaming a little during class this semester.

 

[Fred W]

I recall that those who have autopsied starters from FJRs after it went tits up have found that the permanent magnets that make up the stator half of the motor had come un-bonded (unglued) from the motor body and then shifted circumferentially out of position around inside the motor. This resulted in the reduced motor torque per watt of input power to the rotor, and excessive current draw. I recall some have cleaned the armature commutator, rebonded the magnets in place, and the motor was good to go. Of course, not wanting to have to dig into the FJR bowels that far again, many have just sucked it up and installed a new starter motor.

Boy, wouldn't it be great to have a current reading?

 

[ionbeam]

I believe only one starter was found with the magnets debonded (Walter) and in the end the magnets were not successfully glued back on. Gotta run right now, if I get a chance I'll look into the history later.

Skooter's starter was one that had an oil leak. Several starters at Rick's Motorsport Electrics (in Hampstead, NH) also had oil leaks.

 

[Fred W]

Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about something. I thought there were more than the one case of magnet malfeasance.

 

[ionbeam]

The next two pictures are from Skooter's starter, every thing should be bright silver or copper.

In the next picture wfooshee show us the magnets that have broken off the case.

After gluing the magnets into the starter and reassembling the starter wfooshee says:

Well, shit!

No change. Bike won't start hot. New battery, apparently good starter, haven't found any gunked-up cables, positive or ground, so I'm now officially frustrated.

Then wfooshee goes on to say:

When the bike is hot, starter cranks over weakly, just a couple of turns, and stops. Another kick will get a grunt out of it. This is not a fuel issue where the bike cranks but won't fire. It doesn't crank. If you jump it from a car or a portable booster it cranks and fires OK, so something is soaking up my amps to the point I have to supply more than the bike itself can. Or, no booster available, I can wait 20 or 30 minutes and it cranks and starts just fine. Bump-start works every time, but slopes are few and far between around here.

Hit the starter button, instantly shows 120 amps, I get a couple of turns from the starter, then it lugs and the ammeter pegs. Turn the key off, the ammeter shunt is very hot to the touch.

My starter, no load, 75-80 amps after an initial startup draw of about 120.

Loaner starter from my new best forum buddy FJRnut, 35 amps after an initial startup draw of not quite 80.

But it wasn't a battery problem. I STILL HAVE THAT SAME BATTERY IN THE BIKE RIGHT NOW!

But I never had a battery problem, I had a starter problem. The starter would suck the battery dry of electrons, but a car battery has plenty of capacity to feed my greedy starter, so jumping was never an issue (other than feeding 160 to 200 amps through my tiny FJR starter wires.)

Radman (RIP) says:

Starter draw no-load should be about 30A. Under load, 43A-85A. Relay is rated to 180A, battery produces anywhere from 135A to 200A depending on manufacturer and health. These are rough numbers, but suffice to say if a starter has a fairly high no-load and a really high load cranking amp it's likely it's toast. A normal no-load but high load draw points to a hard cranking engine. Again, a starter/alt shop can be your best friend as that's all they do.

So, luv, there are some numbers to use for troubleshooting.

 

[FJReady]

^^^ Like listening to Neil DeGrass Tyson and Steven Hawking having a discussion about interplanetary travel. It sounds interesting but no one really understands what they're saying.

 

[ionbeam]

^^^ Like listening to Neil DeGrass Tyson and Steven Hawking having a discussion about interplanetary travel. It sounds interesting but no one really understands what they're saying.

You just need more beer. Everything is interesting and easy to understand after enough beer :lol:

 

[wheatonFJR]

^^^ Like listening to Neil DeGrass Tyson and Steven Hawking having a discussion about interplanetary travel. It sounds interesting but no one really understands what they're saying.

You just need more beer. Everything is interesting and easy to understand after enough beer

I just try to hang around guys who know about this magical electrical stuff. ...and their teleporters/phasers/electrical doohickeys that say numbers an everthin.

 

[Fred W]

At least Hawking would remember how Boyles Law works. [forehead slap]

 

[rushes]

I've always hated anything to do with electricity.

It's invisible and can kill you.

You guys that are in to it are worse than guys that play with poisonous snakes to me...

*edit*

Sorry for the thread drift.

 

[luvtoride]

Are Gen 1 & Gen 2 starters the same? I looked @ parts microfiche & actual motor is showing the same #... does anyone know if the whole assembly will work? I am wondering out of curiosity.

 

[wfooshee]

All the same through gens 1 and 2. (The Gen-3 starter motor has a different part number, just the first 3 characters. Dunno how different that makes it.)

 

[NTXFJR]

Looks like it's the same motor that fits all years, '04 to '16. Some sellers are showing old p/n 5JW-81890-00-00, new p/n 1MC-81890-01-00.

<edit: going off of Amazon for the 5JW # > https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=5JW-81890-00-00

Were you able to perform an amp draw test?

Just a thought, knowing that you are looking to fix the problem and get it behind you, and it sure does sound like a bad starter motor, but since the starter is such a pain to get to and is relatively expensive, and you have 109k on the bike, you might consider replacing the starter solenoid. If nothing else, and you do end up having to replace the starter anyway, you have peace of mind knowing that it is fresh. They are relatively cheap and easy to replace, and like tires and batteries, they do eventually go bad even under normal use. But especially after they've been put through several high current draw starting cycles. I've experienced this on other equipment I've worked on where high starter circuit amps overheated and shortened the life of the solenoid contacts,

 

[wfooshee]

Yamaha shows the new part # starting with '13, but still shows the old number all the way back on earlier bikes. I'd be surprised if they didn't interchange, but i don't have any idea what warrants the part # change.