ABS? Grab a Handful!

I ran across this study while researching stuff for another thread.

This study is so good and so definitive on the goodness and use of ABS on motorcycles that it demands its own thread. Yeah, it opens in PDF....

Austrian ABS Study

It has some really interesting conclusions--particularly for experienced riders.

What do you guys think?

(Discuss among yourselves: It's Coffee Talk. It's got coffee and dogs, but don't give dogs coffee....)

Cool info. I love my ABS

Not very surprising, but I'm afraid there will always be those that dispute the findings and find a way to rationalize that ABS is either not helpful or, actually detrimental-by eroding skills, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Karmak said:

Not very surprising, but I'm afraid there will always be those that dispute the findings and find a way to rationalize that ABS is either not helpful or, actually detrimental-by eroding skills, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

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Fuzzy Balls!

I love my ABS and it has gotten me out of a couple sticky situations. However, although I find it to be highly valuable, I don't know if I would recommend it to be on a rider's first bike because I think it is important for a rider to learn and understand the proper brake threshholds (dependent upon the bike, of course) and practice good braking and develop skills prior to riding with ABS.

I am going through this right now. For safety, I really want my wife (who is licensed to ride but is low on skills) to get a bike with ABS ... but I also want her to learn good technique.

I have to admit that I didn't read the entire article. Did it mention anything like this?

One of the more interesting conclusions at the end of the study was:

"The Average experienced motocycle driver and novice drivers as well do not achieve braking deceleration suitable for road traffic. But if they use motorcycle fitted with ABS after having recieved adequate training, they do."

I'm not certain what the appropiate technique on Motorcyle ABS is and I am pretty certain that the training types with MSF in general are not up to speed on it either. It is just such a niche technology in a niche part of the industry that I think awarness is awfully low. I know that when my son took drivers ed recently they were still teaching to pump the brakes in an emergency stop which is a no-no with ABS. There was no discussion about determining if the car you were driving was equipped with ABS or not and the different techniques required.

I am a huge fan of ABS! In those Oh-Shucks moments, the machine will allways control brake forces better than I will and i personally will never drive a bike at a level where the ABS would get in the way of my performance envelope (Mostly because I can't ).

CaryB

Murph said:

I think it is important for a rider to learn and understand the proper brake threshholds (dependent upon the bike, of course) and practice good braking and develop skills prior to riding with ABS. I am going through this right now. For safety, I really want my wife (who is licensed to ride but is low on skills) to get a bike with ABS ... but I also want her to learn good technique.I have to admit that I didn't read the entire article. Did it mention anything like this?

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Yes: It found that experienced riders who developed 'good braking skills' without ABS were reluctant to trust the ABS and took longer to stop than the novices who just stomped on the pedal and grabbed a handful of front brake--trusting the ABS.Once the experienced riders learned to trust the ABS, they stopped just as fast as the novices!

caryb said:

One of the more interesting conclusions at the end of the study was:"The Average experienced motocycle driver and novice drivers as well do not achieve braking deceleration suitable for road traffic. But if they use motorcycle fitted with ABS after having recieved adequate training, they do."I'm not certain what the appropiate technique on Motorcyle ABS is and I am pretty certain that the training types with MSF in general are not up to speed on it either.

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I assure you, based on my discussions with a 'Certified MSF Instructor' on this very site, they have no idea what it does or how to use it.If you have and FJR with ABS, practice the feel of stopping with ABS by rudely stomping on the back brake and pulling hard on the front. Soon you will feel confident and be able to engage the ABS on the front as well.It is smarter than the rider.

I love my ABS and it has gotten me out of a couple sticky situations. However, although I find it to be highly valuable, I don't know if I would recommend it to be on a rider's first bike because I think it is important for a rider to learn and understand the proper brake threshholds (dependent upon the bike, of course) and practice good braking and develop skills prior to riding with ABS.

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You are taking your on-line life into your hands as the pro-ABS goon squad will soon arrive to bash you into submission. How dare you.

Scythian said:

I assure you, based on my discussions with a 'Certified MSF Instructor' on this very site, they have no idea what it does or how to use it.If you have and FJR with ABS, practice the feel of stopping with ABS by rudely stomping on the back brake and pulling hard on the front. Soon you will feel confident and be able to engage the ABS on the front as well.It is smarter than the rider.

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You do not have to reserve to mockery.

I am not saying that ABS is bad. It is great and I love them. But slamming on them is not a correct technique. What qualifications do you have to be making this statements and teaching others?

I have an 05 with ABS, my first bike. I've used in twice in "real life." When the time came I instinctively smashed the rear brake pedal and squeezed the front lever until I couldn't stomp or squeeze no mo! Ol' Maxine bucked and huffed and jerked and jumped and stopped in an absolutely straight line and I felt totally in control. I do occasionaly practice panic stopping and knew what to expect. I love my ABS. If you don't, good for you. If you do, good for you. I love a good fight! :dwarf:

Scythian said:

I assure you, based on my discussions with a 'Certified MSF Instructor' on this very site, they have no idea what it does or how to use it.If you have and FJR with ABS, practice the feel of stopping with ABS by rudely stomping on the back brake and pulling hard on the front. Soon you will feel confident and be able to engage the ABS on the front as well.It is smarter than the rider.

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Are you suggesting that it's better to develop a HABIT of "rudely stomping" and "pulling hard" rather than applying both brakes with smooth progressive pressure under panic conditions!? That habit may work on your ABS now, but God help you if you ever ride a non-ABS bike and have to brake hard.

Just because we teach skills and develop habits that can be used on any motorcycle doesn't mean we ""have no idea what it does or how to use it". In a panic situation, you rely on the skills and habits you've developed. I happen to think "rudely stomping" and "pulling hard" isn't something I should be teaching new riders.

ABS is a safety net, not a tool.

In 2004 a motorcycle magazine did an ABS vs non ABS stopping comparison. The testing venue had a known good surface, the braking was performed dead straight, had no other traffic, no emergencies involved, the stopping was pre-planned, tire brand and condition were controlled and there were no surprises that initiated the braking. Very, very unlike street riding. The test was performed in an ideal setting which may not have a lot of relevance to street braking, especially panic braking.

They had the riding staff make several stops both with and without ABS. Initially the riders with less riding experience stopped shorter with the ABS equipped bikes than the ones without. Some stopped shorter by as much as 30’ (!) with the ABS equipped bike over the non-ABS. The most experienced riders stopped shorter with the non-ABS bikes. As the testing progressed all but one of the less experienced riders were able to come close to matching the ABS stopping distance but none did better than the ABS distance.

In another magazine’s FJR evaluation they found that the non-ABS FJR ridden by very skilled riders could be stopped 12-15’ shorter than the ABS equipped bike. The article mentioned that the stopping difference between an ABS vs non-ABS motorcycle of the same model/year was typically 6-8’ and they were surprised that the ABS of the FJR was so low performing. The ST was ~8’ different between ABS and non-ABS. This may no longer be true with the Gen II bikes.

Last year my sister-in-law got her motorcycle license. While she has >200K miles as a pillion, she was a rookie at the controls. Her motorcycle was a small Harley style clone with a single disk up front but also had a disk in back. At the end of the riding season a lady made a left turn in front of her without looking, and my SIL got her first chance to practice panic braking. She gets an F. She grabbed the front brake, washing out the front end and down she went. My brother and I went back to the scene the next day to measured things out and try to figure out what happened since my SIL had no recall of what occurred. It appears to us that she may have had enough space to stop in time, it was really close. One thing that seems strongly indicated is that with ABS she would not have gone down. Even if she did hit the car is would have been at very low speed. Her wash-out dropped her at ~35 mph and resulted in a broken pelvis, concussion and some road rash. We’ve rebuilt her bike, it looks like new. She is riding again but wants to get a bike with ABS.

[opinion] At this point I think it is a good idea for rookies to have ABS while they learn the fundamentals of street riding. Rookies still need to learn all the correct braking techniques, and while they may not learn 10/10 braking control initially they are more likely to survive rookie mistakes. Once the basic riding skills become subconscious, then it is time to work on optimizing braking and cornering. Under normal riding there is no difference between ABS and non braking. Grabbing and stomping only occurs during OH SHIT events. [/opinion]

caryb said:

One of the more interesting conclusions at the end of the study was:
"The Average experienced motocycle driver and novice drivers as well do not achieve braking deceleration suitable for road traffic. But if they use motorcycle fitted with ABS after having recieved adequate training, they do."

I'm not certain what the appropiate technique on Motorcyle ABS is and I am pretty certain that the training types with MSF in general are not up to speed on it either. It is just such a niche technology in a niche part of the industry that I think awarness is awfully low. I know that when my son took drivers ed recently they were still teaching to pump the brakes in an emergency stop which is a no-no with ABS. There was no discussion about determining if the car you were driving was equipped with ABS or not and the different techniques required.

I am a huge fan of ABS! In those Oh-Shucks moments, the machine will allways control brake forces better than I will and i personally will never drive a bike at a level where the ABS would get in the way of my performance envelope (Mostly because I can't ).

CaryB

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CaryB,

As an MSF coach I can state that we focus a lot on proper braking technique. The technique taught are on non-ABS bike; however, good technique would not change whether it is ABS or not. During the level 2 range excercise (especially Quick Stops) we get a chance to apply 'progressive braking' techniques, which is 'squeezing' the brake to begin slowing, then continue 'squeezing' the brake as the bike comes to a stop. This same procedure will work on ABS bikes, such as my own, just as well as non-ABS.

Scythian said:

I assure you, based on my discussions with a 'Certified MSF Instructor' on this very site, they have no idea what it does or how to use it.If you have and FJR with ABS, practice the feel of stopping with ABS by rudely stomping on the back brake and pulling hard on the front. Soon you will feel confident and be able to engage the ABS on the front as well.It is smarter than the rider.

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Sounds like your rider coach is in error, not the MSF program. Please read the response to CaryB for 'proper braking technique'. Stomping on brakes, or even hinting at that idea is a bad idea. ABS brakes are there to ASSIST in an emergency. For example, you need to make a quick stop, so you squeeze the brakes and discover too late that your rolling over gravel. ABS brakes can ASSIST in not locking up the wheels while over gravel. Granted, an experienced rider can respond quicker and more effeciently than a novice, but even experienced riders can overlook these things.

I can assure you there is at least one Certified Rider Coach on this site that knows what ABS is, how it works, and how to teach others to use it.

I have an 05 with ABS. The only time the ABS has ever kicked in for me was pulling up to a stop sign on a road with a washboard surface. I have found the braking on the FJR more than adequate for normal everyday riding. Knock on wood, I have never had to perform a "panic stop" (hate that term). But I am sure that I will appreciate the ABS in that situation, and I believe that it will help to reduce the "panic" by helping me keep control of the direction that I need to go instead of letting the bike skid out from under me. That was great fun on my MX bikes when I was a kid, but I am not a kid any more and the FJR is not a dirt bike.

SPORT,

My remarks were not meant as a criticism of MSF or of any of the instructors. I am a huge fan of the MSF program and have personally benefited from several of the programs. I simply was pointing out that ABS appears on a small number of bikes in the US mostly within the sport touring category/adventure touring categories. Given the narrow availability broad awarness and experience with ABS on motorcycles is not where it should be yet.

It is interesting that H-D is offering ABS as an option on a number of its 2008 bikes. I don't think they have offered this before 2008 although I'm not sure. At any rate, this may do more to spread the technology in the US market than anything else. Time will tell.

CaryB

SPORT said:

Sounds like your rider coach is in error, not the MSF program.

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He is referring to me and misrepresenting what I have been saying. You, Larry, me and few others are in total agreement on how to use the brakes.

caryb said:

My remarks were not meant as a criticism of MSF or of any of the instructors. I am a huge fan of the MSF program and have personally benefited from several of the programs. I simply was pointing out that ABS appears on a small number of bikes in the US mostly within the sport touring category/adventure touring categories. Given the narrow availability broad awarness and experience with ABS on motorcycles is not where it should be yet.CaryB

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ABS might be new, but as I and others have stated earlier the PROPER braking technique is still the same. The dynamics of the motorcycle hasn't changed.

Is ABS a good thing, YES. Should it be used as a substitute for a bad habit, NO. Personally I would even question putting a newb on an ABS bike. It would give them a falls sense of security and will allow them to learn an improper technique. There is no substitution for a proper training.

Here is a good article that describes on a proper braking.

https://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/streetsur...vanced_braking/

https://www.ehow.com/how_5251_brake-properly-motorcycle.html

https://www.whybike.com/motorcycle219.htm

They all agree on progressively squeezing and not slamming.

cougar8000 said:

I would even question putting a newb on an ABS bike. It would give them a falls sense of security and will allow them to learn an improper technique. There is no substitution for a proper training.

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And that is my point as to why I want my wife to ride a bike with ABS but feel she needs to learn and put up miles (and stops) on a non-ABS.

I am assuming that it is best to go from Non-ABS to ABS than from ABS to "Oh no! Why did I crash?!!? What did I do wrong?!!?"

(I like the discussion, though!)