Lost Power

Fred W said:

PA1195 said:

BkrK12 said:

Having not seen any of the other incidents of problems with this connector,I can only speak to what I saw. I don't think mine was a heat or current related problem. It was simply a bad piece of mechanical design. Take six small gauge wires with crappy crimped on pins on their ends, stick them all in a comparatively heavy connector/shorting bar/ plasticcover and then leave it all sticking out like a long stemmed flower to flop around in the wind and water. It's a guaranteed invitation to metal fatigue and, then, subsequent intermittant grounding and heat problems. Next time you change plugs or do a TBS, you're right there were you can clean it up, slop on some sealant or dielectric grease and bind it down to the rest of the wiring bundle so it doesn't wave around. Should obviate he problem.
Dan

Click to expand...

OK, good advice Dan. Assuming that the plug ground wire is intact and makes good contact to the frame somewhere, and the individual wire ends and loop wire connecting are all ok, then filling the cap w/dielectric grease would weather proof the assembly. Plus tying it down in the windstorm is I agree recommended (I just pushed mine up between the frame and wire bundle from the front of the bike for now). Some have apparently had overheating issues, I presume from high contact resistance and/or a poor ground somewhere. There are at least two more of these dudes back under the left seat frame.

Someday I may wrap the wire ends with a single strand of copper wire, solder the ends together, and cover the bundle with heat shrink tubing. Fixed forever.

Gary in Fairbanks

Click to expand...

You would have to ass-u-me that this situation, like the ignition switch debacle, is limited to 2nd gen bikes. Either the 1st gens don't have these funky ground collectors, or they are different or situated in a different location. I've never heard of anything like this on a 1st gen and there are a bunch of them that have a ton of miles and have been "ridden hard and put away wet", so to speak.

Also, I am not all that certain that "Yamaha" is fully aware of this problem. Just because one of their service centers has seen a few cases and is now savvy doesn't mean that the corporate is "aware" of the issue yet. Those that have experienced the joys of this connector failing or giving these symptoms might want to follow-up with a complaint somehow. While I do not think this problem would warrant a full-on recall like the switches, it would sure be good if all the service guys were notified of the problem so they could look for it during other preventive maintenance.

Click to expand...

Update 23 April 2009

There is no doubt in my situation that Yamaha HQ in Cypress has been told of my failure on my 06 AE. I was there when the call was made to HQ. Bad news, seems the primary power harness is on backorder(wonder why??) and not available until the second week of May 2009. that puts my bike down for almost one month, bummer.

I have always been a Yamaha owner since the early 70s and I must admit the 3 ignition failures and now the shunt ground debacle is making me wonder what is coming next? I have been fortunate with all my other Yamahas which have include DTs, RDs.XSs, YZs, YZFs, Royal *s, Ventures, Radians, and one 05 FJR. Only had one complete road side failure and that is my 06 AE. Well, it is what it is!! :angry2:

turbodave_98 said:

Fred W said:

PA1195 said:

BkrK12 said:

Having not seen any of the other incidents of problems with this connector,I can only speak to what I saw. I don't think mine was a heat or current related problem. It was simply a bad piece of mechanical design. Take six small gauge wires with crappy crimped on pins on their ends, stick them all in a comparatively heavy connector/shorting bar/ plasticcover and then leave it all sticking out like a long stemmed flower to flop around in the wind and water. It's a guaranteed invitation to metal fatigue and, then, subsequent intermittant grounding and heat problems. Next time you change plugs or do a TBS, you're right there were you can clean it up, slop on some sealant or dielectric grease and bind it down to the rest of the wiring bundle so it doesn't wave around. Should obviate he problem.
Dan

Click to expand...

OK, good advice Dan. Assuming that the plug ground wire is intact and makes good contact to the frame somewhere, and the individual wire ends and loop wire connecting are all ok, then filling the cap w/dielectric grease would weather proof the assembly. Plus tying it down in the windstorm is I agree recommended (I just pushed mine up between the frame and wire bundle from the front of the bike for now). Some have apparently had overheating issues, I presume from high contact resistance and/or a poor ground somewhere. There are at least two more of these dudes back under the left seat frame.

Someday I may wrap the wire ends with a single strand of copper wire, solder the ends together, and cover the bundle with heat shrink tubing. Fixed forever.

Gary in Fairbanks

Click to expand...

You would have to ass-u-me that this situation, like the ignition switch debacle, is limited to 2nd gen bikes. Either the 1st gens don't have these funky ground collectors, or they are different or situated in a different location. I've never heard of anything like this on a 1st gen and there are a bunch of them that have a ton of miles and have been "ridden hard and put away wet", so to speak.

Also, I am not all that certain that "Yamaha" is fully aware of this problem. Just because one of their service centers has seen a few cases and is now savvy doesn't mean that the corporate is "aware" of the issue yet. Those that have experienced the joys of this connector failing or giving these symptoms might want to follow-up with a complaint somehow. While I do not think this problem would warrant a full-on recall like the switches, it would sure be good if all the service guys were notified of the problem so they could look for it during other preventive maintenance.

Click to expand...

Update 23 April 2009

There is no doubt in my situation that Yamaha HQ in Cypress has been told of my failure on my 06 AE. I was there when the call was made to HQ. Bad news, seems the primary power harness is on backorder(wonder why??) and not available until the second week of May 2009. that puts my bike down for almost one month, bummer.

I have always been a Yamaha owner since the early 70s and I must admit the 3 ignition failures and now the shunt ground debacle is making me wonder what is coming next? I have been fortunate with all my other Yamahas which have include DTs, RDs.XSs, YZs, YZFs, Royal *s, Ventures, Radians, and one 05 FJR. Only had one complete road side failure and that is my 06 AE. Well, it is what it is!! :angry2:

Click to expand...

TurboDave,

I feel for ya, I REALLY DO!! I was without my bike from December 17 until March 13!!!

The good news is that my bike has worked flawlessly for the last 3,000 miles and I am getting ready to go for another 1200 mile ride this weekend!

Best Regards,

Shane

Shane Stump said:

turbodave_98 said:

Fred W said:

PA1195 said:

BkrK12 said:

Having not seen any of the other incidents of problems with this connector,I can only speak to what I saw. I don't think mine was a heat or current related problem. It was simply a bad piece of mechanical design. Take six small gauge wires with crappy crimped on pins on their ends, stick them all in a comparatively heavy connector/shorting bar/ plasticcover and then leave it all sticking out like a long stemmed flower to flop around in the wind and water. It's a guaranteed invitation to metal fatigue and, then, subsequent intermittant grounding and heat problems. Next time you change plugs or do a TBS, you're right there were you can clean it up, slop on some sealant or dielectric grease and bind it down to the rest of the wiring bundle so it doesn't wave around. Should obviate he problem.
Dan

Click to expand...

OK, good advice Dan. Assuming that the plug ground wire is intact and makes good contact to the frame somewhere, and the individual wire ends and loop wire connecting are all ok, then filling the cap w/dielectric grease would weather proof the assembly. Plus tying it down in the windstorm is I agree recommended (I just pushed mine up between the frame and wire bundle from the front of the bike for now). Some have apparently had overheating issues, I presume from high contact resistance and/or a poor ground somewhere. There are at least two more of these dudes back under the left seat frame.

Someday I may wrap the wire ends with a single strand of copper wire, solder the ends together, and cover the bundle with heat shrink tubing. Fixed forever.

Gary in Fairbanks

Click to expand...

You would have to ass-u-me that this situation, like the ignition switch debacle, is limited to 2nd gen bikes. Either the 1st gens don't have these funky ground collectors, or they are different or situated in a different location. I've never heard of anything like this on a 1st gen and there are a bunch of them that have a ton of miles and have been "ridden hard and put away wet", so to speak.

Also, I am not all that certain that "Yamaha" is fully aware of this problem. Just because one of their service centers has seen a few cases and is now savvy doesn't mean that the corporate is "aware" of the issue yet. Those that have experienced the joys of this connector failing or giving these symptoms might want to follow-up with a complaint somehow. While I do not think this problem would warrant a full-on recall like the switches, it would sure be good if all the service guys were notified of the problem so they could look for it during other preventive maintenance.

Click to expand...

Update 23 April 2009

There is no doubt in my situation that Yamaha HQ in Cypress has been told of my failure on my 06 AE. I was there when the call was made to HQ. Bad news, seems the primary power harness is on backorder(wonder why??) and not available until the second week of May 2009. that puts my bike down for almost one month, bummer.

I have always been a Yamaha owner since the early 70s and I must admit the 3 ignition failures and now the shunt ground debacle is making me wonder what is coming next? I have been fortunate with all my other Yamahas which have include DTs, RDs.XSs, YZs, YZFs, Royal *s, Ventures, Radians, and one 05 FJR. Only had one complete road side failure and that is my 06 AE. Well, it is what it is!! :angry2:

Click to expand...

TurboDave,

I feel for ya, I REALLY DO!! I was without my bike from December 17 until March 13!!!

The good news is that my bike has worked flawlessly for the last 3,000 miles and I am getting ready to go for another 1200 mile ride this weekend!

Best Regards,

Shane

Click to expand...

Shane, I do have other bikes to ride, so I am content to ride my reliable Honda ST1100!! :yahoo:

turbodave_98 said:

Shane Stump said:

turbodave_98 said:

Fred W said:

PA1195 said:

BkrK12 said:

Having not seen any of the other incidents of problems with this connector,I can only speak to what I saw. I don't think mine was a heat or current related problem. It was simply a bad piece of mechanical design. Take six small gauge wires with crappy crimped on pins on their ends, stick them all in a comparatively heavy connector/shorting bar/ plasticcover and then leave it all sticking out like a long stemmed flower to flop around in the wind and water. It's a guaranteed invitation to metal fatigue and, then, subsequent intermittant grounding and heat problems. Next time you change plugs or do a TBS, you're right there were you can clean it up, slop on some sealant or dielectric grease and bind it down to the rest of the wiring bundle so it doesn't wave around. Should obviate he problem.
Dan

Click to expand...

OK, good advice Dan. Assuming that the plug ground wire is intact and makes good contact to the frame somewhere, and the individual wire ends and loop wire connecting are all ok, then filling the cap w/dielectric grease would weather proof the assembly. Plus tying it down in the windstorm is I agree recommended (I just pushed mine up between the frame and wire bundle from the front of the bike for now). Some have apparently had overheating issues, I presume from high contact resistance and/or a poor ground somewhere. There are at least two more of these dudes back under the left seat frame.

Someday I may wrap the wire ends with a single strand of copper wire, solder the ends together, and cover the bundle with heat shrink tubing. Fixed forever.

Gary in Fairbanks

Click to expand...

You would have to ass-u-me that this situation, like the ignition switch debacle, is limited to 2nd gen bikes. Either the 1st gens don't have these funky ground collectors, or they are different or situated in a different location. I've never heard of anything like this on a 1st gen and there are a bunch of them that have a ton of miles and have been "ridden hard and put away wet", so to speak.

Also, I am not all that certain that "Yamaha" is fully aware of this problem. Just because one of their service centers has seen a few cases and is now savvy doesn't mean that the corporate is "aware" of the issue yet. Those that have experienced the joys of this connector failing or giving these symptoms might want to follow-up with a complaint somehow. While I do not think this problem would warrant a full-on recall like the switches, it would sure be good if all the service guys were notified of the problem so they could look for it during other preventive maintenance.

Click to expand...

Update 23 April 2009

There is no doubt in my situation that Yamaha HQ in Cypress has been told of my failure on my 06 AE. I was there when the call was made to HQ. Bad news, seems the primary power harness is on backorder(wonder why??) and not available until the second week of May 2009. that puts my bike down for almost one month, bummer.

I have always been a Yamaha owner since the early 70s and I must admit the 3 ignition failures and now the shunt ground debacle is making me wonder what is coming next? I have been fortunate with all my other Yamahas which have include DTs, RDs.XSs, YZs, YZFs, Royal *s, Ventures, Radians, and one 05 FJR. Only had one complete road side failure and that is my 06 AE. Well, it is what it is!! :angry2:

Click to expand...

TurboDave,

I feel for ya, I REALLY DO!! I was without my bike from December 17 until March 13!!!

The good news is that my bike has worked flawlessly for the last 3,000 miles and I am getting ready to go for another 1200 mile ride this weekend!

Best Regards,

Shane

Click to expand...

Shane, I do have other bikes to ride, so I am content to ride my reliable Honda ST1100!! :yahoo:

Click to expand...

Dave,

I use to have another bike until I convinced myself that I would never ride the GL1800 with the FJR!! I never thought I would have the problems I did for as long as I did!!

Oh well, I am going to wait & see what Honda brings out next year (2011) when the new touring bikes start coming from Japan!!

Best Regards,

Shane

dcarver said:

We need a volunteer to tear into this, develop a fix for cheap..
Brodie? Calling Mr. Brodie to the courtesy telefono, por favor!

Click to expand...

You want cheap and reliable?Lop that melted POS gnd block connector off, strip back the wires and solder them all together.

A properly sized, good quality, wire nut would do a better job than the POS connector Yamaha seems to have picked.

turbodave_98 said:

Update 23 April 2009There is no doubt in my situation that Yamaha HQ in Cypress has been told of my failure on my 06 AE. I was there when the call was made to HQ. Bad news, seems the primary power harness is on backorder(wonder why??) and not available until the second week of May 2009. that puts my bike down for almost one month, bummer.

I have always been a Yamaha owner since the early 70s and I must admit the 3 ignition failures and now the shunt ground debacle is making me wonder what is coming next? I have been fortunate with all my other Yamahas which have include DTs, RDs.XSs, YZs, YZFs, Royal *s, Ventures, Radians, and one 05 FJR. Only had one complete road side failure and that is my 06 AE. Well, it is what it is!! :angry2:

Click to expand...

Dave,

While you are waiting for the harness so they can repair the bike to specs (I assume this is on the YES dime) why not ask them to do what Zorlac suggests. Just strip the wires and twist them all together and solder and shrink wrap the bundle. Won't cost them a dime other than the time, you can ride your bike till the new harness arrives.

If it isn't being paid for by warranty, I'd just do the above and never replace the harness. Personally, being an electronic engineer that works on far more complicated systems than a motorcycle, I think replacing an entire harness for one failed connector is ludicrous.

Fred W said:

I think replacing an entire harness for one failed connector is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

Very true. Besides being wasteful in terms of time and materials, you're also taking the risk of damaging or disturbing other connectors and components for no good reason.

I'm considering one of two options. Install ring lug connections on all wires, run one wire to frame.

1. Then run a bolt through all remaining wires. Loctite blue of course. Only 1 bolt and nut, simple and clean.

2. Install a small connection block (RadioTrash). Multiple screws that could loosen, but possibly better connections.

Then wrap with this gooey electrical tape used for deep wells. The stuff works really well.

Thoughts?

dcarver said:

I'm considering one of two options. Install ring lug connections on all wires, run one wire to frame.1. Then run a bolt through all remaining wires. Loctite blue of course. Only 1 bolt and nut, simple and clean.

2. Install a small connection block (RadioTrash). Multiple screws that could loosen, but possibly better connections.

Then wrap with this gooey electrical tape used for deep wells. The stuff works really well.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

All the above would work. But I'm going to try to retain the existing "joint couplers" for now, as mine are clean on a new '08 bike, and of course show no signs of overheating. There's not a lot of exposed wire before the couplers, and we've all struggled to strip, solder, crimp, or whatever do something with the wires too damn short to really work well with. No need for that frustration just yet.

Here's what I did this am (sorry, I really need to figure out the pics to post protocol soon). Anyhow, I located four joint couplers in the harness (there may be more). One up in the left front under the frame that has been previously identified as a potential source of electrical weirdness, and has shown signs of overheating for some. Two more over the left side of the engine, and one just above the main ECU plug under the left side of the front seat. I removed the black plug cover and lifted the six-pin shorting connector from the plugs. I squeezed some of this stuff commonly available at automotive and hardware stores into the plug from both ends, put some on the shorting connector pins, and reassembled the plugs. I've used both this AGS product and Dow DC-4 Dielectric Compound to success for years on Amateur Radio and aircraft equipment exposed to the elements. This silicone-based grease claims to help prevent contact corrosion, and it seems to work.

I also tied down the front plug with a nylon tie to keep it from whipping about in the wind under the frame and becoming mechanically compromised.

The pins crimped to the ends of the individual ground wires are easily removed from the white plug by pressing the plastic locking tabs away from the pins with a fine probe if inspection and cleaning is needed. I can see where water and dirt could enter the plug from either end and start a corrosion process eventually ending in poor contacts. The dielectric grease should help prevent that from becoming a problem. Covering the entire coupler with liquid tape may also keep it weather tight, but won't stick to anything covered with the grease.

If there's yet another problem due to current overload in a clean connector, then a bigger ground wire and a better connection method to ground would be needed. The actual contact area of the wire end pins to shorting connector is along only a small portion on one side of the pins, unlike a full 360 degree contact afforded by a separate plug-together connector with female sleeves as used for most other electrical contacts on the bike. That in itself may be part of the problem when corrosion further reduces the little available contact area resulting in high resistance and heat.

Gary in Fairbanks

Mine started acting up during the Cape Fear rally. Last night I had the tank off doing my 3rd valve check (still none out of spec at 75,000mi). I inspected the connector and sure enough it was melted. I cut the whole damn thing off, soldered extensions on each of the 6 wires to make them each about 6 inches longer, then shorted them all together using ring teminials and a barrier strip. Something like this: Make sure all the wires are connected to each other ie add jumpers between segments. Should hold up for another 75k

My update as of 25 April

Took some of the above corrective measures for the failed ground to my dealer and we discussed various options. He had already done the mod of soldering all the grounds in the connector together and put shrink wrap on then.

He was very frank with me and said that the several ground wires in the connector were very over heated and that he was concerned that the wire was so brittle that even with the soldring job that the ground could fail due to the brittleness of the wires.

therefore, his advice, which I accepted was to have a new OEM main harness installed. He is a long time dealer that I have dealt with for nearly 30 years and he is looking out for my concern about breaking down again in the August Big Show.

"he was concerned that the wire was so brittle that even with the soldring job that the ground could fail due to the brittleness of the wires."

What happens is that the heat from the melting connector heats the small strands of the stranded wire and they oxidize and then become very difficult to clean properly before soldering.

He should have cut back an inch or two to get to the unoxidized portion of the wire before trying to solder it.

Damn it. I'm next. Pix loading to photobucket, will post them later. But I too am screwed and tatooed.

dcarver said:

Damn it. I'm next. Pix loading to photo bucket, will post them later. But I too am screwed and tattooed.

Click to expand...

Looks like Crzy8 has Feejeritis.

It all started back then..

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s...trical++problem

Then Airhead has his issue, and Un4gvn did a great job posting up and placing pix..

Then TurboDave got stranded.

and many other folks too.

SLAP! huh? what?

So this got me thinking I might be running on borrowed time, as Turbo's and Airheads early symptoms were EXACTLY like mine.

So, today, lift the tank, go exploring.

What a good connector looks like. This one located at rear of tank, LHS.







The connecting pins making up the 'ground bus bar'.







shorting link fully removed



The burned one - same guy as everyone else... under the tank, lhs, hard to get to.

First the, location - arrgghh. Follow the finger..



This ain't looking good.. hard to see but..



Then finally, got the camera angle just right. Yep, I'm screwed and tattooed



Editorial pix



Note that Crzy8 still runs great. But she did have some weird electrical issues that mysteriously went away. I know better, and knew I had a problem

somewhere.. and that sometime, it would resurface. The orginal symptoms were almost 9 months ago. Until today, I thought she was in perfect shape. Then again, maybe I should just ride her and see when/where she fails?

( :fuck: NO!)

With summer riding season and CFO and the Candy Butt Association First Inaugural Rally on the books, I need to get this fixed.

I see my options as

1. YES warranty Assuming they will fix it even though the bike still runs and officially 'broken'.

2. Have a local (GREAT TECH) peel the loom back and solder up a good long lasting connection.

3. Do #2 myself.

4. Ask Hal to ride up for a weekend and ply him with cigars, whiskey, and fresh horses?

Damnitallanyway.

BTW - I one of the first, if not the first guy to raise his hand and holler out loud about a failed iggie switch. In that spirit I now fully recommend that:

[SIZE=12pt]All GenII owners check this ground junction out - sure, YMMV, you may have better walking shoes than me, but sooner or later... [/SIZE] :fuck:

Bad news/great write-up. Just curious, but as I recall all but one wire was black with green spots on my four connectors. The solid black I think was the main wire to ground, the rest grounds from various components. Which wire was cooked the most? Was it the solid black or just all?

The general location of those I serviced can be seen on the cable routing drawings in the front of the Service Manual, not on the wiring diagrams.

Amazing pics BTW.

Gary in Fairbanks

Yep, that's the sob that did me in. wires brittle all the way back to the wrapped main harness. I opted to have a new harness installed via warranty, thanks to YES

Just another thought, as this failure seems to affect GenIIs and the presence of these 3 ground shunts are not shown on the electrical schematic, I would wonder if the Gen I's have them?? I sure would suggest a check of those bikes, just in case. I can attest that even with AAA motorcycle coverage for road assistance, it is expensive. AAA wrecker wanted $600 USD in addition to my insurance 100 mile radius coverage to move my bike a total of 165 miles. Fortunately, a great friend ran out to trailer my 06 home, thus saving time and big bucks. Thanks again, Mel and Indian Scout!!

PS: failed to mention my dealer is going to apply dielectric grease and seal with shrink wrap the shunt grounds in the new harness. I hope that eliminates the issue of a new harness with no protection to the connections of the new one.

PA1195 said:

Bad news/great write-up. Just curious, but as I recall all but one wire was black with green spots on my four connectors. The solid black I think was the main wire to ground, the rest grounds from various components. Which wire was cooked the most? Was it the solid black or just all?
Amazing pics BTW.

Gary in Fairbanks

Click to expand...

Great question Gary. I blew up the pix and looked close.. it appears the solid black is the burnt wire. Bad news. My failing old eyes can't see it as good as the foto..

I suppose one could go far enough back in the loom to find 'good' copper and make a 'good' ground. I don't think replacing the harness with the same ilk (sic) unless the new harness had the connection coated with silicone would be any better.

EDIT: My mistake, all of my wires ('08 model) going to that plug, and the three others, are either black with with one or two green spots. I was wrong is assuming one was plain black. And more than one have continuity to ground. So who knows which one is the real ground wire. Rather than put a similar load into the ground wire and just re-cook the same under capacity wire, why not just combine the grounds with a new, larger gauge wire and attach it to the frame or battery B- post? That would take the load off the existing ground wire if that's what's cooking.

I suppose another quick fix would be to just solder a large wire to the six-pin shorting strap and run it to ground. But that would take a plug and pins in good condition.

Brodie or ??? might gin up a fix kit to prevent the cooking. Fun project and worthwhile.

What's really strange is that my '08 wiring diagram doesn't show those B/G wires being combined into the joint couplers we're looking at. But they're shown in the cable routing drawings.

I'll bet with all the worldwide corporate sales declines Yamaha will be sweating this one out hoping it doesn't become a safety recall. Not much bux left in their fix-it box after the ignition switch deal.

Gary in Fairbanks

Don, HOLY CRAP !!!

I have the bike apart doing some documentation work that you and I spoke about when you were last here - so I found the common, and took a look.

This is the best I could get the pic -



It seems to be in perfect shape. No signs of heat, the wires are all flexible, no 'pips' in the plastic from melting, etc. Seems ok.

Personally I don't think grounding this shorting connector to the frame is a good idea, it may create a ground loop in the ground system. If you want to do that, I'd go with a 10ga wire (or 2 12's for the equivalent of a 9ga wire) back to the negative post of the battery.

From the looks of those pics it seems like the wires were carrying excessive current for some reason, it just seems like a stretch that the insulation melted back that far from a high resistance connection in the shorting block. (Technically speaking, it's not a shunt.)

In order to solder those properly you'll have to dig back farther into the harness to get to some undamaged wire, if there even is any. I understand now why the dealer would replace the whole harness.