Lost Power

[SkooterG]

Wow. Just read this thread for the first time.

Good info here folks. VERY WELL DONE un4gvn!

So is it only 06 and 07s? Did Yamaha change something on the 08 and 09s? Or do those just not have enough miles yet? What's to stop it from re-occuring with the new wiring harness installed? So many questions, so little answers.

turbo - Sorry to hear of your ongoing issues with your AE.

Shane - Glad to hear you finally got your issues sorted out.

Airhead - did you get your FJR back and all is well once again?

 

[dcarver]

Wow. Just read this thread for the first time.
Good info here folks. VERY WELL DONE un4gvn!

So is it only 06 and 07s? Did Yamaha change something on the 08 and 09s? Or do those just not have enough miles yet? What's to stop it from re-occuring with the new wiring harness installed? So many questions, so little answers.

turbo - Sorry to hear of your ongoing issues with your AE.

Shane - Glad to hear you finally got your issues sorted out.

Airhead - did you get your FJR back and all is well once again?

Skooter -

As you know, TurboDave experienced this failure 2 weekends ago - flat bed truck delivery time - and the Harley's kept running and running and running.. LOL

Airhead is happy once again.. As far as I know he's had no issues since.

My 60k+ has experienced some weird symptoms like momentary engine failure when activating turn signals.. I'll be tearing into the harness soon to inspect this grounding point. It's not had the issue for sometime now - it just fixed itself..

 

[Shane Stump]

Wow. Just read this thread for the first time.
Good info here folks. VERY WELL DONE un4gvn!

So is it only 06 and 07s? Did Yamaha change something on the 08 and 09s? Or do those just not have enough miles yet? What's to stop it from re-occuring with the new wiring harness installed? So many questions, so little answers.

turbo - Sorry to hear of your ongoing issues with your AE.

Shane - Glad to hear you finally got your issues sorted out.

Airhead - did you get your FJR back and all is well once again?

SkooterG,

Thanks ... I am definitely HAPPY again!!! Going 3 months without a bike seemed like FOREVER!!

Best Regards,

Shane

 

[SkooterG]

Ya know, it's shit like you guys are going through that makes me all the happier I still have my good ol Gen I cooker. I hate to say it, but Yamaha really took a step backwards with the 06s and 07s with all the issues they have had. However, I am wondering if they have gotten them mostly sorted out on the 08s and 09s. Except for the all too often reported case of poor shifting due to dry clutch plates.

As much as I anticipate the next generation FJR as everybody else around here, I wonder how many 'issues' it will have, and how many years it will take them to refine them out.

 

[PA1195]

As mentioned earlier, the connector in question is readily visible from the front of the bike. Kneel down so you can shine a light and look under the headlights just below and behind the silver frame on the left side of the bike. It lies next to the black wiring harness in the airflow (and debris field). I guess keep an eye on it for overheating.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[un4gvn]

Ya know, it's shit like you guys are going through that makes me all the happier I still have my good ol Gen I cooker. I hate to say it, but Yamaha really took a step backwards with the 06s and 07s with all the issues they have had. However, I am wondering if they have gotten them mostly sorted out on the 08s and 09s. Except for the all too often reported case of poor shifting due to dry clutch plates.
As much as I anticipate the next generation FJR as everybody else around here, I wonder how many 'issues' it will have, and how many years it will take them to refine them out.

Oh yeah right...can you say "TICKER" mr. Gen I :lol:

 

[RadioHowie]

Ya know, it's shit like you guys are going through that makes me all the happier I still have my good ol Gen I cooker. I hate to say it, but Yamaha really took a step backwards with the 06s and 07s with all the issues they have had. However, I am wondering if they have gotten them mostly sorted out on the 08s and 09s. Except for the all too often reported case of poor shifting due to dry clutch plates.
As much as I anticipate the next generation FJR as everybody else around here, I wonder how many 'issues' it will have, and how many years it will take them to refine them out.

Oh yeah right...can you say "TICKER" mr. Gen I :lol:

"Ticker" never left someone at the side of the road. EVER.

 

[Fred W]

If all that connector does is short all those various ground wires together, this would be a very very easy electrical problem to fix 100% permanently with very little effort. A few more robust connectors and a ground bus bar would do the trick.

Also, I think maybe a conclusion has been jumped to, that these connectors are burning up on people because they are riding with high beams on. The amount of current that the high beam draws is almost the same as the low beam. I seriously doubt that this is the main factor.

Plus, looking at the wiring diagram, the ground wires from the headlights (both high and low beam) seem to be joined with the front directional signals, the horns and the power windshield drive, but nothing I can see that would cause the engine to cut-out, unless the diagram is not showing some other ground (like say the fuel pump) being tied to these others.

Item - Description

86 - Windshield motor switch

88 - Horn button

111 - Front Left Turn Signal Lamp

112 - Front Right Turn Signal Lamp

114 - Headlight assembly

115 - Headlight relay (dimmer)

116 - Windshield drive

It also doesn't make any sense to me that the engineers would run all of these ground wires from the front faring area back into the frame. Instead, I would expect them to join them together in the nose somewhere and then run a single ground wire back to the frame.

 

[BkrK12]

If all that connector does is short all those various ground wires together, this would be a very very easy electrical problem to fix 100% permanently with very little effort. A few more robust connectors and a ground bus bar would do the trick.
Also, I think maybe a conclusion has been jumped to, that these connectors are burning up on people because they are riding with high beams on. The amount of current that the high beam draws is almost the same as the low beam. I seriously doubt that this is the main factor.

Plus, looking at the wiring diagram, the ground wires from the headlights (both high and low beam) seem to be joined with the front directional signals, the horns and the power windshield drive, but nothing I can see that would cause the engine to cut-out, unless the diagram is not showing some other ground (like say the fuel pump) being tied to these others.

Item - Description

86 - Windshield motor switch

88 - Horn button

111 - Front Left Turn Signal Lamp

112 - Front Right Turn Signal Lamp

114 - Headlight assembly

115 - Headlight relay (dimmer)

116 - Windshield drive

It also doesn't make any sense to me that the engineers would run all of these ground wires from the front faring area back into the frame. Instead, I would expect them to join them together in the nose somewhere and then run a single ground wire back to the frame.

Fred, I was absolutely able to make the problem (both directional signal indicator lights on, High beam ind on, flashing fuel gauge and no start} come and go by moving that connector. I suspect the Yamaha wiring diagram is not all that one would wish it to be. If you read the wiring diagram, there is no way the high beam indicator light can be on if the high beam is not on. However, if you pull the shorting bridge out of the connector, you can make that condition occur. I suspect the way they put that harness together, the connector up under the heat shield is an artifact.

Dan

 

[Fred W]

OK, I guess I didn't correctly understand the problem symptoms. (I vaguely remember discussing them during the bridges ride last year)

The point that I have circled above would not create any of those conditions.

And I think I was right that that ground junction is probably somewhere up in the nose faring.

(back to the schematics...)

 

[BkrK12]

Fred,

I think the ground point you have shown is for the actual devices, Headlights, etc. What appears to be failing is the grounding point for the dash/meter, which actually is missing on the wiring diagram. It is a 6 wire ground, only one of which really goes to ground. If the connection to the real ground fails, power back feeds, leading strange combinations of dash lights to go on. The fact that the fuel gauge also flashes indicates that the fuel delivery system electrics are also connected in. If the bike is running and you wiggle that connector enough to cause the light show, the bike stops. If you turn the key on and immediately get the light show, pushing the starter switch results in nothing happening. Also, if I remember correctly, in that situation the fuel pump does not go on with the ignition switch.

As I said, you cannot trace all this on the Yamaha wiring diagram - or, at least Alan and I weren't able to. Un4gvn found this bad connector. I'm guessing by trial and error. I can't imagine how much time he must have spent before he discovered it tucked under the heat shield. I wonder if the Gen1 bikes have that same opening into the engine compartment, up under the steering head. It's an awful place to put any kind of an electrical connector that isn't meticulously weather sealed. The connector is also subjected to all the engine heat under the shield...Just a bad idea. From now on, that's an item to check any time I'm in that area of the bike.

Dan

 

[Fred W]

Yeah, you are right. I can't find anything in common with the circuits that you described from the schematics. It must be that several grounds from the nose area along with the ground from the Fuel pump/sender assembly are brought together into that connector for eventual grounding to the frame, and that is not shown in the diagrams. When you lose the frame ground the constant powered high current items (like the fuel pump) would then have 12V on their ground wires and back feed the other lower current devices.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I've not actually looked that closely at this shorting plug on my own bike, but I know the one & from an engineering point, the photos it makes sense. They have one of those plastic caps over it and hanging to form a cup or holder for wash or rain water to drain into if the seal leaks. If that's the case, it'd be a nice place to develop some corrosion, leading to the heat that the photo showed evidence of.

An easy pre-emptive idea would be to simply check and see if corrosion has started, or to even make a small drain hole in the bottom of the cap. But again, this is from the photos, so if somebody has better first-hand thoughts, I'm listening.

 

[dcarver]

We need a volunteer to tear into this, develop a fix for cheap..

Brodie? Calling Mr. Brodie to the courtesy telefono, por favor!

 

[PA1195]

Yeah, you are right. I can't find anything in common with the circuits that you described from the schematics. It must be that several grounds from the nose area along with the ground from the Fuel pump/sender assembly are brought together into that connector for eventual grounding to the frame, and that is not shown in the diagrams. When you lose the frame ground the constant powered high current items (like the fuel pump) would then have 12V on their ground wires and back feed the other lower current devices.

Excellent point Fred, and thanks un4gvn for the wiring heads-up pics. Any partial or complete loss of ground for the common plug, and the differential voltage across bike electrical parts that connect their ground wire to that common plug could decrease. Lower differential voltage could make the low battery/charging system symptom weirdness some like un4gvn have described.

There's several threads going here regarding weird electrical behavior that "may" relate to poor differential voltage caused by a compromised ground for a common grounding plug. There's also the issue of corrosion within the plug and documented signs of overheating likely caused by poor internal connections and high resistance.

The fact that Yamaha is aware of this is a concern. Changing out the complete wiring harnesses has been mentioned. Not an option for all out of warranty. Is this yet another ignition switch part problem soon to be addressed by many?

We need to find where the ground wire for the affected ground plug(s) contacts the frame, and make sure those contacts are clean and the wiring ok. Inspecting the plug(s) for internal corrosion would be a good idea as well. Maybe a good cleaning and applying some dielectric compound like Dow DC-4 would help prevent further problems. I need to check my bike for the ground to frame contact location.

Sounds like this is something that's only going to get worse and cause further problems for some.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[BkrK12]

Having not seen any of the other incidents of problems with this connector,I can only speak to what I saw. I don't think mine was a heat or current related problem. It was simply a bad piece of mechanical design. Take six small gauge wires with crappy crimped on pins on their ends, stick them all in a comparatively heavy connector/shorting bar/ plasticcover and then leave it all sticking out like a long stemmed flower to flop around in the wind and water. It's a guaranteed invitation to metal fatigue and, then, subsequent intermittant grounding and heat problems. Next time you change plugs or do a TBS, you're right there were you can clean it up, slop on some sealant or dielectric grease and bind it down to the rest of the wiring bundle so it doesn't wave around. Should obviate he problem.

Dan

 

[PA1195]

Having not seen any of the other incidents of problems with this connector,I can only speak to what I saw. I don't think mine was a heat or current related problem. It was simply a bad piece of mechanical design. Take six small gauge wires with crappy crimped on pins on their ends, stick them all in a comparatively heavy connector/shorting bar/ plasticcover and then leave it all sticking out like a long stemmed flower to flop around in the wind and water. It's a guaranteed invitation to metal fatigue and, then, subsequent intermittant grounding and heat problems. Next time you change plugs or do a TBS, you're right there were you can clean it up, slop on some sealant or dielectric grease and bind it down to the rest of the wiring bundle so it doesn't wave around. Should obviate he problem.
Dan

OK, good advice Dan. Assuming that the plug ground wire is intact and makes good contact to the frame somewhere, and the individual wire ends and loop wire connecting are all ok, then filling the cap w/dielectric grease would weather proof the assembly. Plus tying it down in the windstorm is I agree recommended (I just pushed mine up between the frame and wire bundle from the front of the bike for now). Some have apparently had overheating issues, I presume from high contact resistance and/or a poor ground somewhere. There are at least two more of these dudes back under the left seat frame.

Someday I may wrap the wire ends with a single strand of copper wire, solder the ends together, and cover the bundle with heat shrink tubing. Fixed forever.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[Fred W]

Having not seen any of the other incidents of problems with this connector,I can only speak to what I saw. I don't think mine was a heat or current related problem. It was simply a bad piece of mechanical design. Take six small gauge wires with crappy crimped on pins on their ends, stick them all in a comparatively heavy connector/shorting bar/ plasticcover and then leave it all sticking out like a long stemmed flower to flop around in the wind and water. It's a guaranteed invitation to metal fatigue and, then, subsequent intermittant grounding and heat problems. Next time you change plugs or do a TBS, you're right there were you can clean it up, slop on some sealant or dielectric grease and bind it down to the rest of the wiring bundle so it doesn't wave around. Should obviate he problem.
Dan

OK, good advice Dan. Assuming that the plug ground wire is intact and makes good contact to the frame somewhere, and the individual wire ends and loop wire connecting are all ok, then filling the cap w/dielectric grease would weather proof the assembly. Plus tying it down in the windstorm is I agree recommended (I just pushed mine up between the frame and wire bundle from the front of the bike for now). Some have apparently had overheating issues, I presume from high contact resistance and/or a poor ground somewhere. There are at least two more of these dudes back under the left seat frame.

Someday I may wrap the wire ends with a single strand of copper wire, solder the ends together, and cover the bundle with heat shrink tubing. Fixed forever.

Gary in Fairbanks

You would have to ass-u-me that this situation, like the ignition switch debacle, is limited to 2nd gen bikes. Either the 1st gens don't have these funky ground collectors, or they are different or situated in a different location. I've never heard of anything like this on a 1st gen and there are a bunch of them that have a ton of miles and have been "ridden hard and put away wet", so to speak.

Also, I am not all that certain that "Yamaha" is fully aware of this problem. Just because one of their service centers has seen a few cases and is now savvy doesn't mean that the corporate is "aware" of the issue yet. Those that have experienced the joys of this connector failing or giving these symptoms might want to follow-up with a complaint somehow. While I do not think this problem would warrant a full-on recall like the switches, it would sure be good if all the service guys were notified of the problem so they could look for it during other preventive maintenance.

 

[JamesK]

Thanks for the info guys, I'll be sure to check this when I'm next under the tank.

Based on the description of the electrics running on this circuit it sure sounds like another good preventative (as well as beneficial) thing to do would be to add a Headlight Relay Harness.

Cool, reading through this post, I think I've just finally convinced myself to spend the $55 on this H4 Relay Kit

This would certainly remove one of the biggest and continuous current draws from this group circuit.

H4 Dual Headlight Relay Kit

 

[dcarver]

I'm hoping to have time this weekend to explore Crzy8....