Brake Useage Discussion

[Bike Effects]

I started my riding late in life (40) with a Kawasaki KZ-750. Nice bike and a good bike to learn on. I occasionally had, what I call "Aw shits" while riding the hills around the Napa valley. This usually manifested itself in approaching a corner too fast and then getting brain freeze as I tried to recover.

I don't have these "Aw shits" any more, but was reminded of them this morning as I followed another bike back from my Sunday morning coffee stop. I was in a long line of vehicles going very slowly (30 ish MPH) with another rider in front of me. As he approached a corner, he locked up the rear brake and got brain freeze and nearly left the roadway in front of me.

I stopped doing these antics when I learned from Keith Code to stop using the rear brake. Yes, I have been to MSF schools, and have demonstrated that using both brakes results in shorter stopping distances, under CONTROLLED conditions. They taught us at the Code school that your brain can only process so much information at one time. Using the front brake and the rear brake = two separate processes. Turning the bike ( a big one here) is yet another. Many of the bikes that we ride (my R1 for sure) can lift the rear wheel using the front brake only, making the back brake useless.

So, I am a happy and safer guy using the front only. What say you?

 

[BlueWing]

Well I don't use the front brake exclusively however I do probably 80% of my braking with it. It just seems 'natural' to me. I like the way it really pulls me down from speed. Yes, I realize that both brakes do it quicker so when it's needed I use both.

 

[Windjammer]

What if you find yourself entering a corner and the radius of the turn tightens unexpectedly, or you see some sand/leaves/gravel in your line, or need to scrub just a bit of mid-corner speed for ANY reason. The back brake will do much better than the front for such tasks, since its application has generally less effect on the chassis. Just don't stuff your boot into the thing every time you use it.

IMO, the safest rider has the ability to use ALL of his vehicles capabilities with equal skill. This gives the rider the maximum number of options for dealing with a variety of situations. Using the back brake requires practice and good judgement, just like the front. If a back brake were useless/ineffective, it wouldn't be on the bike.

I understand the division of attention theory, and agree with it to some extent. I also understand that the front is the primary brake for quick stop situations. However, neither of those means the rider should ignore the back brake altogether, IMO. The real key when encountering an "aw shit" is to avoid panic. Practice careful use of the rear brake and you will find its value.

 

[Bike Effects]

What if you find yourself entering a corner and the radius of the turn tightens unexpectedly, or you see some sand/leaves/gravel in your line, or need to scrub just a bit of mid-corner speed for ANY reason.

Well, that is the time that I am going to accept the speed that I have and concentrate on the cornering. This is exactly the type of scenario that I used to find myself in and I have a lot less drama now that I use only the front, or in the case that you mentioned, no brake at all. At that point, I would tend to add a little trailing throttle so that the motorcycle gets it weight distributed on both the front and rear wheels, so that I can take advantage of the larger contact patch that the rear offers.

At the Keith Code school, they taught us to use braking markers, but not in the normal sense. Pick a spot where you get off the brakes and accept your speed, and concentrate your abilities on the turn itself. Most riders today have lots more lean angle available to them, if they learn how to use it.

 

[radman]

I use lotsa front, some rear, the 80-20 posted here seems right. BUT, as I have stated here before, when the feces hits the rotating unit, all bets are off. The reaction to a genuine oh shit situation is gonna be handfulls of everything a guy has-it's only natural. If one races constantly, and as such is highly tuned to life at the edge, this may not be so. But for the average rider, when panic stop time happens, it's balls to the wall, there's just no time to think through the proccess. I have plenty of riding time behind me, plenty of emergency situations to my credit, and have not gone down in almost 40 years of riding. Last year, when a somewhat buzzed gal cruised through a stop sign and pulled into the lane directly in front of me when on my Honda, it was feets don't fail me now time, with a momentary rear lock (a return to the scene showed 5 feet of stripe) at 60 mph. The cop was impressed, the lady was ballin', and I was shaking. The fact remains that for an instant, all the learning and skill went out the door when self preservation was paramount.

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

I raced for close to 10 yrs. and in that span of time I can honestly say I've never used a rear brake. That carried over to the limited street riding I found myself doing less of due to racing. Knowing that I never used the rear, I modified it with smaller components (i.e.: rotor and caliper) to reduce unsprung weight. Now it wouldn't even lock the wheel in wet grass! lol To make a long story short, if I had to think about using the rear, I'd probably be already down and sliding! This brings me to the present. I find now with the FJR, I'd better start to learn how to use it because the front brakes alone are not enough (found that out a few weeks ago in the NC)! I'm used to my '04 R1 brakes, and found myself doing a few awe shits on the FJR myself! lol Time to re-teach an old dog new tricks I guess, or maybe get better brakes on the FJR! Yeah, that's ticket! lol

 

[twowheelnut]

I raced for close to 10 yrs. and in that span of time I can honestly say I've never used a rear brake. That carried over to the limited street riding I found myself doing less of due to racing. Knowing that I never used the rear, I modified it with smaller components (i.e.: rotor and caliper) to reduce unsprung weight. Now it wouldn't even lock the wheel in wet grass! lol To make a long story short, if I had to think about using the rear, I'd probably be already down and sliding! This brings me to the present. I find now with the FJR, I'd better start to learn how to use it because the front brakes alone are not enough (found that out a few weeks ago in the NC)! I'm used to my '04 R1 brakes, and found myself doing a few awe shits on the FJR myself! lol Time to re-teach an old dog new tricks I guess, or maybe get better brakes on the FJR! Yeah, that's ticket! lol

How come I see some racers with the tail hanging out just as they bank for the turn? Is that rear brake induced or are they making it slide with judicious use of the front brake (lightens the rear?) and/or throttle?

Oh, and I use WAAAAAAAY too much rear brake. I gotta stop that, but I feel it settles the chassis prior to corner entry for me...

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

I raced for close to 10 yrs. and in that span of time I can honestly say I've never used a rear brake. That carried over to the limited street riding I found myself doing less of due to racing. Knowing that I never used the rear, I modified it with smaller components (i.e.: rotor and caliper) to reduce unsprung weight. Now it wouldn't even lock the wheel in wet grass! lol To make a long story short, if I had to think about using the rear, I'd probably be already down and sliding! This brings me to the present. I find now with the FJR, I'd better start to learn how to use it because the front brakes alone are not enough (found that out a few weeks ago in the NC)! I'm used to my '04 R1 brakes, and found myself doing a few awe shits on the FJR myself! lol Time to re-teach an old dog new tricks I guess, or maybe get better brakes on the FJR! Yeah, that's ticket! lol

How come I see some racers with the tail hanging out just as they bank for the turn? Is that rear brake induced or are they making it slide with judicious use of the front brake (lightens the rear?) and/or throttle?

Oh, and I use WAAAAAAAY too much rear brake. I gotta stop that, but I feel it settles the chassis prior to corner entry for me...

Yeah, thats pretty common now a days! It was too much for me back then. We have better brakes/suspension/tires/frames now to assist in this type of riding. By the time I retired in '93 this was just starting to come to light! I leave that for the fast guys! lol

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

BTW- thats rear brake induced!

 

[Fastfar]

Street and track are different. In extreme braking on the track a rider is duplicating the most efficient methods to get thru a corner as fast as possible, but on the street a rider may be called on to change both line and speed radically to avoid a situation that is unique and still developing as the the rider approaches or is into a turn. Using both brakes in concert as well as using them separately is a critical street skill because we road riders encounter situations that never occur on the track like oncoming traffic...and on the street there are no runoffs.

Because the brakes do different things to the bike, using both/either as necessary can avoid trouble where front alone would spell disaster. Nothin' gospel here, just my 2 cents...

 

[Bike Effects]

What if you find yourself entering a corner and the radius of the turn tightens unexpectedly, or you see some sand/leaves/gravel in your line, or need to scrub just a bit of mid-corner speed for ANY reason. The back brake will do much better than the front for such tasks, since its application has generally less effect on the chassis. Just don't stuff your boot into the thing every time you use it.
IMO, the safest rider has the ability to use ALL of his vehicles capabilities with equal skill. This gives the rider the maximum number of options for dealing with a variety of situations. Using the back brake requires practice and good judgement, just like the front. If a back brake were useless/ineffective, it wouldn't be on the bike.

I understand the division of attention theory, and agree with it to some extent. I also understand that the front is the primary brake for quick stop situations. However, neither of those means the rider should ignore the back brake altogether, IMO. The real key when encountering an "aw shit" is to avoid panic. Practice careful use of the rear brake and you will find its value.

If you find yourself in a situation where the radius decreases, lean more. If you are already dragging hard parts, then you have not excercised good judgement in the first place. Debris in the road....your right, don't panic. Most of the time you can ride through it, even if it slides a little bit. You may brown your shorts, but that is preferable to panic and the road rash that follows. I once rounded a corner and ran over a piece of sheet metal in the road. Nice front end slide, but it stopped as suddenly as it started as soon as I rode off of the metal piece.

 

[Bike Effects]

How come I see some racers with the tail hanging out just as they bank for the turn? Is that rear brake induced or are they making it slide with judicious use of the front brake (lightens the rear?) and/or throttle?

They are sliding the rear because their entry speed would be too fast to make the turn. They step the rear out, using rear brake, so as to get the front end pointed in the desired direction. At 62, I think I'll forgo that part of my riding education.

 

[Bike Effects]

I raced for close to 10 yrs. and in that span of time I can honestly say I've never used a rear brake. That carried over to the limited street riding I found myself doing less of due to racing. Knowing that I never used the rear, I modified it with smaller components (i.e.: rotor and caliper) to reduce unsprung weight. Now it wouldn't even lock the wheel in wet grass! lol To make a long story short, if I had to think about using the rear, I'd probably be already down and sliding! This brings me to the present. I find now with the FJR, I'd better start to learn how to use it because the front brakes alone are not enough (found that out a few weeks ago in the NC)! I'm used to my '04 R1 brakes, and found myself doing a few awe shits on the FJR myself! lol Time to re-teach an old dog new tricks I guess, or maybe get better brakes on the FJR! Yeah, that's ticket! lol

I have an R1 and it has the best brakes that I have ever used. They are stock except for steel lines. I have exactly the same brakes on my FJR, and I don't think that they are that far off. Granted, I'm stopping an additional 130-140 pounds more motorcycle, but not that bad, none the less. I hope to get a little farkle time in the next week or so and install the Galfer lines that I have for the FJR.

 

[rdfrantz]

At the Keith Code school, they taught us to use braking markers, but not in the normal sense. Pick a spot where you get off the brakes and accept your speed, and concentrate your abilities on the turn itself. Most riders today have lots more lean angle available to them, if they learn how to use it.

I find I'm generally in agreement with Windjammer. Control Inputs and the forces they generate are Resources. It doesn't make sense to me to set a policy that reduces my resources when riding.

As a motorcycle instructor, I often point out there are distinct differences in the Environments, and what they contain, between riding on the Street, and on the Track. Consequently, there are differing Skills needed to meet the differing challenges of the two environments: What might be most appropriate in one environment is not necessarily most appropriate in the other. Rear Braking is one of those Skills.

Your address has been about cornering, and seemed mostly directed to cornering at the Track. While I want to address cornering, please consider that Street riding is only going to consist of a minor percentage of cornering.

A normally laden Sport Tourer, like the FJR, will allow their rear brakes to produce 25% to 40% of the bike's stopping power, any time a bike is called to stop - leaned over or not. As noted, when leaned considerably, that fraction is going to rise greatly if one considers how much stopping power can safely, with out crashing, be applied.

Why wouldn't we on the street just "lean more" - Only "lean more"?

Well, at the track, if one does accept their entry speed, and handles the excess by closed throttle braking, and leaning, they eventually run out of slowing, and leaning. If that's not enough to successfully negotiate the corner, a crash results. At the track, each Rider does or should accept that: It is an Inevitable Consequence. In Striving For Speed; Entry speed mistakes are accepted; Brake use has been eschewed; Limits can be exceeded.

On the Street, I do not accept a crash. Crashing is not acceptable. To that end, pursuing that "purpose" if you will, I am bound to use everything at my disposal to wipe at that excess speed -- to whatever level required -- so that available lean angle does in fact get me through that corner. Rear Braking is a Resource in doing that. In fact, front braking is as well.

For that to be at a Rider's disposal, some margin of lean angle must be in hand -- we cannot be leaned over to the point of scraping parts. With traction in the bank, we can apply slowing. And, we need not wait until deep in the corner to begin the process of setting the speed and lean angle margin needed to successfully negotiate the corner. We can bake during the entry phase of the corner -- that section before Mid-corner that holds the Apex.

I do blow corner entry speeds. When I do, I brake. I brake because I'm "guessing" I'm not going to be able to successfully get through this corner at this speed, or that if I do I will have used up all my margin for this event of the corner, and there darned well could be other things in this unknown Street corner that likely would not be there on some corner of a well known race track.

Getting excess speed cropped out of the equation has been a very successful action for me. Now nearly a year since having passed the million mile mark of riding, I still have not had to leave a roadway despite an average, or greater than average, number of judgment mistakes. But, as you might guess, just like someone attending a racing school to train up to be a good track rider, I do a lot of training to be a competent street rider.

The key has been that Margin I leave, in speed, lean angle, and ego. I know I can go faster on the street than I do. I prove that to myself, and no one else, at the track. Where I seldom use rear brake while turning.

Best wishes.

 

[RickL]

I use the front brake ALMOST exclusively; the exceptions are 1) when traction is reduced due to water, oil, sand, etc, and using the front brake alone could lead to a washout, 2) when trail braking, and 3) just as I come to a stop. Not to use the rear brake is a conscious decision that I put into daily practice so that when, as radman said earlier, I get to an "aw shit" moment, my learned behaviors don't lead me into a high side. I've high sided a 250 pound dirtbike at 50 mph, and don't want to find out what it's like to do that with a 600 pound FJR. It's kinda like dressing for the crash instead of the ride - I'm braking for the emergency, not for the current situation.

 

[Bike Effects]

Your address has been about cornering, and seemed mostly directed to cornering at the Track. While I want to address cornering, please consider that Street riding is only going to consist of a minor percentage of cornering.

I agree that it seems that my emphasis was on racetrack riding, although that was not my intent. On the racetrack is where I learned the skills that not keep me from having those "moments" that we all want to avoid.

I respect your opnion, and appreciate your well written response. You obviously have a great deal of riding experience. For me though, I have found that with other things going on around me, it is easier to control the bike using one brake, instead of two. Controlling the brake lever with my hand, and using my foot and ankle to use the rear brake efficiently, works well in MSF class, but I suck at the excercise when applied to a street situation. Kind of like rubbing your tummy and patting your head. Maybe and I can't walk and chew gum either!

What I have seen over the years, as a result of changing my style and spending a lot of attention on how I use the front brake, is that this alone has reduced the drama for me. Not to say there have not been other improvements that have helped along the way, but seldom do I have an "Aw shit". Just watching this guy in front of me today, locking up the rear, and freezing to the point that he almost went into the ditch, brought it all back to me.

 

[NoCage]

I mostly use the front brakes. I use the rear in gravel and trail-braking when doing slow, tight turns... like the figure 8 in the MSF course.

 

[FJRottie]

The front brake is sufficient for most scenarios.

Like others have said, you may need the rear for very slow riding, and certain cornering issues (i.e. less traction, loss of traction) to prevent a highside.

It would ne nice to have a spare bike to practice ripping through or sliding through corners. I did that on junk bikes when I was young to learn the machine.

I only use the rear brake without the front, in stop and go slow traffic.

 

[throttlejockeyTJ]

Using the rear brake momentarily before using the front brake transfers weight to the front wheel (even if applied at exactly the same moment). I have always used both brakes. I have never locked a rear brake. When I was racing and got into a corner a little too fast, using the rear brake widened the rear trajectory to point the front at a better angle for exiting the corner. I never locked the rear wheel backing it in like some of the racers. Myself I don't think that is the smooth way around the track. TJ