Fallen Rider

[GalaxyBlue]

Off topic..

Welcome back scooter! It seems you were gone for a while!

 

[Geezer]

Although I live in New York now, I originally got my MC endorsement in New Jersey. The routine was to go around some cones in a glorified parking lot and make a couple of turns and stop at a stop sign. Pretty basic stuff.

Now they have tightened up the course and it is difficult to negotiate the cones with a full size bike. Sooooo, most everyone who is taking the test shows up on a rented scooter, with automatic transmission, and breezes through. You can ride a scooter so I guess you can ride whatever two wheeler you want to buy. Scary.

 

[yanktar]

It's really heart-breaking. But where do you draw the line between responsible salemanship and the right to purchase what you want if you are of legal age? Where do we draw the line between free-enterprise/government interference/responsible salesmanship?

Does a dealership even have a RIGHT to refuse a sale to someone if they have the bucks to buy a machine. Supposing a guy comes in, a para-plegic, and wants to buy a bike he'll NEVER be able to get on or ride? (for whatever reason--maybe he collects bikes like other people collect coins or stamps) Can they say no? I don't know the answer.

I do believe that increased licensing standards and re-testing are appropriate. Also skill/experience based limits on HP you can ride on the street. MSF may not be the best or the right way to train riders, but it's better than nothing. I took the ERC after my get-off and I learned a lot, found it VERY valuable, and had a lot of fun, too.

But if I were in the sales business, I'd do my damndest to make sure my customers were safe--to whatever the limit of the law is. I like to look in the mirror without wanting to slit my throat.

 

[fastersilverfjr]

I guy who started riding a few years ago started on a Suzuki 650 Savage. At first, he would not lean in a turn. Too strange and too different from driving a car. One of his first rides he did not lean in a slow speed turn and could not make the turn without leaning. He panicked and hit the front brake. The motion of him trying to apply the front brake made him open the throttle. His bike jumped forward with the throttle open. He hit the curb, poped over the curve, his rear wheel spun in the grass/dirt and spun his bike around in a semi-donut. He then let go of the throttle and the bike dropped.

This sounds a lot like what could have happened to this kid. Only his back wheel did not spin on the grass and accelerated him and the bike forward into and through a fence. Like was said before, he probably would have simply crashed on the grass if the fence and tree hadn't been there.

With gas prices going up, we will see a lot more people killing themselves as first time riders. Just watch...

 

[BULLIT MAN]

It's entirely possible, and I'm not too proud to say I've done it myself, that as a new street rider, when making the turn, if he had too much speed, he could have panicked and forgotten to let off on the throttle. The thing that saved me (again, speaking from experience as a VERY new rider at the time a few years ago) was pulling in the clutch (thank you MSF). It wouldn't surprise me in the least to have someone pop the curb and get tossed.
Terrible tragedy...

At the dealership i bought my fjr,and gold wing from a young man the week prior had purchased a brand new r1.He was'nt ready to ride it so he had a friend who was supposed to be seasoned rider come to the dealer to pick it up.at the exit the young man released the clucth to aggressively popped straight out across pacific coast highway,flipped the bike witch was then crushed by an on comming truck.The young man was not hurt to bad,the bike was gone.the dealer had let him take the bike without a insurance binder.Now the war of liability is on.even though they have known me at this dealer for some 10 years and i have bought several bikes from them,they made me walk my bike to the end of the dealerships property and drive off from there.they had melowed out after a couple months when i went back in for the wing. Im not sure if this is true but i think in calif.you have to be 18 to ride a stalion,but at 16 or 18 you can ride a bike that will go 150+ miles an hour.I dont know i have 2 teenage boys.They have been riding dirt for years,and thanks to crap like the metal melisha they take chances that i dont feel comfortable with and have spent some time off thier bikes and sitting on thier helmits because of it.They ask me when they are gonna be aloud to drive street bikes.I have told them when i feel they show the right respect.Sorry didnt mean to go on so much but this kind of story is close to home and makes me very sad and mad......

 

[radman]

Not to worry bullit, your post illustrates an important point. Too few people in a position of authority care enough to take the time to exercise that authority and insist on skill levels meeting an acceptable standard before the bike is ridden. You done good, but you are in the minority. But then, who decides when the individual in question is beyond that point? Well, the individual themselves, of course. But too few recognise the danger they're in until it's too late, indicating something that transcends motorcycling or hang gliding or what have you. Is it machismo, or peer pressure, or the notion that to admit to fear or wariness makes one less than a "real guy" that condemns so many to injury and death? Training is for pussies, gear is nerdy, if you can't ride a Busa you simply don't fit in? It's a societal problem, and has been for ages. Men don't cry, men don't like chick flicks, men don't say no to power and speed, and ultimately, death and injury. It's what makes us so cool, and so fucked up.

 

[Toecutter]

Wow, how sad. Another 'senseless' tragedy. Today's editorial page contained a letter from the widow of a police officer (off-duty) who killed himself on a Ninja 750 back in July. She was concerned that the dealerships will sell these "Weapons of Destruction" and let them out the door without requiring a motorcycle license or insurance. Maybe that's the case, but the dealers I went to wouldn't allow a test ride without same. Maybe it changes once they don't own the bike anymore. Jeez, how 'bout a little common sense on the part of the buyer. Once again, we are not expected to be held accountable for our own stupid actions. Motorcycles are vulnerable to injury or worse, they require balance and honed operator skills to ride safely among cars and other obstacles on the street. Get training before you fly solo and don't overstep your limitations, damnit! Somehow it must be Bush's fault.

 

[fretbender]

Yes this is very sad, and I feel badly for the mans family especially. Even so. . .what the heck ever happened to personal responsibility? Regardless of the presence or lack of licensing requirements, I wouldn't attempt to fly a plane or drive an 18wheeler or even ski without either being in a controlled environment or having some training that I felt put the odds in my favor. It's not too hard to figure out that riding a motorcycle can result in an accident that can maim/kill you. Like Clint Eastwood quipped, "A man's got to know his limits."

When I was 11 years old I was riding (very carefully at ALL times) my older brother's YZ250 and the first motorcycle I ever personally owned was a '92 V-max that I purchased at the tender age of 19. . . and this without any endorsement or formal training. HP and weight restrictions will never be an adequate replacement for critical engagement of that gray lump of matter between our ears, and as long as we skirt around that issue we'll just see more and more of these types of accidents.

 

[nusman68]

-may I echo the many sentiments here....a tragic loss...unfortunate accident, because it was avoidable. I guess we will never know any further details; whether he was MSF trained or not is certainly irrelevant now to his family. I must say I was surprised at how 'lame' the MSF course was when I took it. Granted, it was better than nothing, and it shows you the basics, but not even getting out on the road? Really? I was shocked. I have always thought there should be an 'intermediate or 'part II' course that you take immediately after the basic in which they take the group out on the road, through intersections/turns/etc/perhaps scheduled only on a Sunday to 'ramp up' the new rider's exposure to real traffic. I was fortunate to have had my brother (w/30 years riding experience and instructor background) to teach me initially. I started out on a grassy field, worked up to an abandoned street, then was 'escorted' on local riding. In my MSF class, most students were going to be riding at least 750cc bikes...a far cry from the 125s & 250s provided.

Now, I recently learned (getting my wife signed up) that the class hours have been cut (by a few)...why not extended? Budget cuts?

W/regard to the responsibility of the dealership....the guy probably would have bought the bike from another dealer even if they had declined to sell it; gotta go with personal responsibility here....Several years ago (15+?) I read about a guy who came into some big money overnight. Bought himself a new Ferrari. Killed himself in the first week: high speed/lost control/into a rock face/somewhere in CA. His widow tried to sue Ferrari, because they 'didn't tell him driving at high speed could be dangerous'. She lost. That B/S makes me sick. Of course the lawyers thrive on it! :angry:

 

[gr8eyes]

The dealership I use has refused to sell an R1 to someone in the past. They are not legally obligated to sell any bike to anyone I don't think.

 

[fastersilverfjr]

good side point g8eyes...

Could there discrimination liability to a dealer that refuses to sell a bike to a protected class? Unless there is some civil case law out there, but a dealer could find themselves in a liability catch 22.

Don't sell a bike ==> Discrimination

Do sell a bike ==> Negligence

Gawd, I love this country.

 

[rene]

RIP Aaron.

I used to sell motorcycles for a few years (Suzuki) in Colorado Springs (USAF Academy, Ft. Carson, Peterson AFB, NORAD all within 15 miles, to name some) and I would get the 1st time street riders wanting GSXR750's and 1100's (this was the early 90's). Most I could talk out of those bikes and into GS500's or maybe Katana 600's if they had to go new, or the used bike 'O the day, stressing the "Two kinds of riders" theory.

I had a guy who bought a (used) FZR600 from me die entering traffic for the 1st time, coming out of the dealership. He was new, fresh out of MSF and he pulled onto a 35mph street in from of a delivery van. He didn't have gear on (no helmet law in Colo).

As a salesperson it sucks to deal with that, from firsthand experience. I didn't dwell on it because I has tried as hard as I could to get him into a smaller, slower bike, but in his case that wouldn't have mattered.

The profit (back inthe 90's) on a GS500 at full MSRP was about $400 and on a GSXR750/1100 was about $800... not a huge difference, but enough for some less-caring people to take advantage.

Very sad!

 

[MCRIDER007]

I would get the 1st time street riders wanting GSXR750's and 1100's (this was the early 90's).  Most I could talk out of those bikes and into GS500's or maybe Katana 600's if they had to go new, or the used bike 'O the day, stressing the "Two kinds of riders" theory.

Thanks for the insight Rene. There have been a lot of good comments whether dealers should refuse sales to unqualified riders. I think they should but I don't how the dealers could determine who is unqualified and lets face it, the dealers and their salesmen have a serious conflict of interest. The dealers have to make sales to stay in business and salesmen working on commission have to make sales to pay the bills. They both should realize that their future lies in long term customers, not one sale to a customer who will probably have an accident and never buy another motorcycle. I just wish there were more entry level bikes available so when a new rider walks into the showroom and wants to buy a high performance 600, a salesman could offer some viable alternatives.

I think Harley had the right idea a few years ago when they were selling a bare bones 883 Sportster for $3,999. It only made about 40 HP and could be traded in on a larger Harley with a guarantee that it would have full value at trade-in (as long as conditions were met). That program didn't last that long and it was probably a victim of Harley's success -- which means that it was really about sales and not about safety -- but the concept was good.

I think it would be a lot easier to sell a 500 to a new rider wanting a hot 600 if they knew they were not going to take a big financial loss on the 500. The dealers need to work with the manufactures to develop some kind of strategy to attract new riders and keep them as long term customers. As it is, motorcycle riding in the US is turning into a "senior" activity.

 

[Toynut]

My brother(a dentist) had a patient who was a retired police captain. One day one of his patients walked in with a frightful cast(pins and all) on his left arm /wrist. My brother asked him what had happened. He sheepishly told him that he was looking for a post-retirement hobby for himself and his wife. He purchased a brand new Valkyrie and had it delivered to his house. Without any formal riding classes, let alone a license, OR a helmet, he managed to ride it about 200 yards, and dropped the bike at the end of his cul-de-sac, smashing his arm and pinning the bar end into his wrist.

Now, think about a former police CAPTAIN taking these ridiculous and (illegal) risks., How untenable and highly irresponsible (just imagine if he had his wife aboard)!

All my brother could say to his patient was,"What Were You Thinking"? :headbonk:

 

[nusman68]

@ Toynut:

I hear you....and along those same lines:

Last Sunday, myself & my wife (on the Feej), my brother & his wife go out (each of them on their own bikes) for a 'day trip' through a forest & surrounding rural roads. We're wearing our usual armored mesh, full face helmets, armored gloves, etc etc. I see this unusual looking older guy playing 'cat & mouse' with us in traffic; catch up/fall back and so on. Finally pulls up next to me at a stop light. "Where you all going?" Tell him. "Can I follow you? I just got this thing"

He's riding a new VTX1800, wearing a short sleeve Hawaiian shirt :bigeyes: , shorts :bigeyes: cheapie DOT helmet :bigeyes: and (maybe) some decent boots.

Talk about ridiculous looking...at least his ankles had adequate protection. You could tell from his 'driving ability' that his experience did not appear extensive; told me at another light he just got 200 miles on it, and is gonna take his SO with him on a group ride the next weekend...good luck!

 

[XLR8]

Good lord. What a sad sad story.

To shed some light on the fact there is some wisdom in the world of sales, the salesperson at my dealership whom I still deal with, refused to sell me an R1 a while back until I had more riding experience. I was too ignorant at the time to know that he was right but I did listen.

-r

 

[yanktar]

Yeah, dealers CAN end up in Catch-22s.

When we were planning our wedding and honeymoon, which was going to be (and was) a spectacular trip to Seattle, Victoria, Vancouver, Jasper, Banff and Calgary via "Planes, Trains and Automobiles" (not to mention boats) I was looking into renting bikes. This was 1987, before the Internet so was making a lot of L/D calls to Canada...I got a dealer in Calgary. He told me that they USED to rent bikes, but stopped. Some guy had rented a bike, got drunk, crashed without a helmet, and sued the renting dealership. When the he won his suit, all the dealers in Calgary went out of the rental business....

As a coda, we WERE able to rent bikes in Victoria and Vancouver. We had a bike for 5 days in Vancouver and rode all over. First a Honda 60, then a KZ650--like the Kawa better. Froze our butts because we had not brought riding gear and had to make do.

 

[Bounce]

About all I would expect a dealership to require would be a scoot license/endorsement.

I can't see this as happening unless, as in this case, the buyer rides the bike home. For a simple purchase there's no need for a tag or a D/L much less an M endorsement. All such things deal solely with the operation of a vehicle on a public road. If the rider is only going to use it on private property they don't have to tag it or have a D/L. At that point, insisting that the buyer comply with state regulations that may (or may not) apply turns them into an agent of the government.

In a perfect world we all would be our brothers keepers. But I'm not so sure that having that kind of intrusions into our daily lives is as perfect as it might appear at first blush. I know many people didn't think it very cool when certain states had kids reporting on their parents' private lives.

Jeez, how 'bout a little common sense on the part of the buyer. Once again, we are not expected to be held accountable for our own stupid actions.

EXACTLY!

Sometimes awful things happen when adults are expected to be personally responsible for their own choices. However the alternative is even less desireable. And, after you strip away all the fluff, what we are talking about is the choice an adult made to ride a bike (with his personal knowledge of his own experience and skills) and the repercussions of those choices. In the case of bikes, if the rider isn't of legal (adult) age, then there are constraints on many choices (can't enter into a legal contract for example). The burden then rests on the parent. A dealership could get the parent to sign some sort of document of understanding/waiver/agreement to protect themselves from those parents who would choose to blame a dealership instead of accept their (adult) responsibility for their children (get them proper training, step them up through different powers of bikes, etc.). But, in the end, it is the parents' responsibility for their child (not the dealership).

I'm always reluctant to jump on a bandwagon that appears to be endorsing granting the state the ability to over rule an adult's personal choice. Ask yourself this question personally (I don't want a flame war breaking out on the boards): Are you also against "pro-choice" in all the other areas of your ideology?

 

[skyway]

I am currently coaching my brother-in-law on his first bike, an SV650(great bike BTW). So far he has only ridden it with me following behind. He also has taken the MSF class, and also made the comment of how different riding on the street is compared to the class. It has been a long time since I have been out riding with a complete beginner, but I see his improvements every time we set out. He always asks how he doing in terms of skill level, and my response so far has been 'don't worry about how fast your going, ride your own ride and just get some miles racked up'. Instead of riding long straight roads, I have been taking him along technical stretches of highway, so he can get used to curvey roads at a controlled pace. So far I think it is working out well.

After each ride we talk about how different situations played out and after 600+miles, he is just starting to use all of the controls without thinking about what he is supposed to do next. There has also been one situation of target fixation and he is realising that his eyes must always be looking up off the road in the direction of where he wants to go.

Even though riding behind someone who is at times going at a pace which is putting me to sleep, I know it is helping him gain confidence and I know he appreciates it. There is definetely a venerability during the first few thousand miles.

Training that involves real world riding is a definate plus for a beginner compared to a parking lot, but I'm not sure you will see this happening anytime soon in the US.

 

[XLR8]

I am currently coaching my brother-in-law on his first bike, an SV650(great bike BTW). So far he has only ridden it with me following behind. He also has taken the MSF class, and also made the comment of how different riding on the street is compared to the class. It has been a long time since I have been out riding with a complete beginner, but I see his improvements every time we set out. He always asks how he doing in terms of skill level, and my response so far has been 'don't worry about how fast your going, ride your own ride and just get some miles racked up'. Instead of riding long straight roads, I have been taking him along technical stretches of highway, so he can get used to curvey roads at a controlled pace. So far I think it is working out well.
After each ride we talk about how different situations played out and after 600+miles, he is just starting to use all of the controls without thinking about what he is supposed to do next. There has also been one situation of target fixation and he is realising that his eyes must always be looking up off the road in the direction of where he wants to go.

Even though riding behind someone who is at times going at a pace which is putting me to sleep, I know it is helping him gain confidence and I know he appreciates it. There is definetely a venerability during the first few thousand miles.

Training that involves real world riding is a definate plus for a beginner compared to a parking lot, but I'm not sure you will see this happening anytime soon in the US.

I think this is priceless and I hope he thanks you for it.

-r