Split: Off-topic drift about a variety of things

[El Toro]

To each his own. I started making friends of dealers from the age of 16. I'm not going to change after 49 years. This has been true for Hondas, Triumphs, BMWs, Suzukis, and Yamahas.

I like to hang out and BS with the employees. It makes me feel young again, reminding me of those days when I was the employee.

I know they have to make money to stay in business. I know that if everyone chases the deal to another local, it makes it harder for them, and bitterness can come into their life.

I know that we all like to say that dealers are stealers, but it also appears that oftentimes buyers are liars ... so it goes both ways.

I've found that if I'm fair with a dealer, and if there is a good mutual feeling - where they know I'm not an asshole, and I know that they're honest and doing their best, then things usually work out for the best.

I'm fortunate not to have any specific need for one thing or another as a rule. I've got enough 2 and 4 wheel vehicles around, that one down is no big deal. I can be patient. Sometimes this is the elixir of life for the relationship between customer and dealer.

So ... if a dealer proves to be a jerk, my solution is to remember it and not use them again. But I'm not fast to decide that someone is a jerk. Sometimes it's obvious, but much of the time, a jerk is just someone who is under a lot of stress who has not yet seen why he should do something other than what first popped into his mind.

Regarding the speculation about what it was that the AE needed, as I understand it, they were following MamaYama's troubleshooting advice.

First they tried the proverbial oil change, and everyone, including Yamaha agreed that this was not the solution.

Next they tried the double whammy of bleeding the clutch and raising the engine engagement rpm by 500.

They say that three of them have now tried the bike in a wide range of conditions, cold and hot, flat and steep, etc., and they have not been able to get it to present the bad behavior.

So ... this was done on an unhurried time frame, and at Yamaha's expense.... and if it turns out that it really hasn't fixed the problem, then I'll let them fool with it again. I am patient. I'll pick it up tomorrow and see what I think.

But the technician who handled it is very good and his "specialty" is troubleshooting odd stuff. He loves these sort of challenges. And he has experience with the AE models.

I'm chuffed that it's ready (they started working on it Tuesday late in the day, and they called me at lunchtime today).

 

[palerider]

To each his own. I started making friends of dealers from the age of 16. I'm not going to change after 49 years. This has been true for Hondas, Triumphs, BMWs, Suzukis, and Yamahas.
I like to hang out and BS with the employees. It makes me feel young again, reminding me of those days when I was the employee.

I know they have to make money to stay in business. I know that if everyone chases the deal to another local, it makes it harder for them, and bitterness can come into their life.

I know that we all like to say that dealers are stealers, but it also appears that oftentimes buyers are liars ... so it goes both ways.

I've found that if I'm fair with a dealer, and if there is a good mutual feeling - where they know I'm not an asshole, and I know that they're honest and doing their best, then things usually work out for the best.

I'm fortunate not to have any specific need for one thing or another as a rule. I've got enough 2 and 4 wheel vehicles around, that one down is no big deal. I can be patient. Sometimes this is the elixir of life for the relationship between customer and dealer.

So ... if a dealer proves to be a jerk, my solution is to remember it and not use them again. But I'm not fast to decide that someone is a jerk. Sometimes it's obvious, but much of the time, a jerk is just someone who is under a lot of stress who has not yet seen why he should do something other than what first popped into his mind.

Regarding the speculation about what it was that the AE needed, as I understand it, they were following MamaYama's troubleshooting advice.

First they tried the proverbial oil change, and everyone, including Yamaha agreed that this was not the solution.

Next they tried the double whammy of bleeding the clutch and raising the engine engagement rpm by 500.

They say that three of them have now tried the bike in a wide range of conditions, cold and hot, flat and steep, etc., and they have not been able to get it to present the bad behavior.

So ... this was done on an unhurried time frame, and at Yamaha's expense.... and if it turns out that it really hasn't fixed the problem, then I'll let them fool with it again. I am patient. I'll pick it up tomorrow and see what I think.

But the technician who handled it is very good and his "specialty" is troubleshooting odd stuff. He loves these sort of challenges. And he has experience with the AE models.

I'm chuffed that it's ready (they started working on it Tuesday late in the day, and they called me at lunchtime today).

Please post if the problem is fixed (or not). I hope it is. On mine it's annoying but not that big a deal.

 

[El Toro]

I agree on the not big deal idea.

I can cope with it, but my '06 and my '08 did not do this. Interestingly, at least to me, this is the second '09 I've owned that had the problem, and of course the '09s sat around in the warehouse for a couple of years before they were sold at large discounts. That's why my '09 still has the Y.E.S. in effect. It was not sold at retail until 2012. I'll post tomorrow when I know what the result was.

 

[SkooterG]

My 09 'A' has done it for 100,000 miles. It's slightly better now than when new. My 09 sat on a dealer's floor for 2 and a half years before the original owner bought it. *If* it does it, it is always after first start up when cold.

I've always meant to soak the clutch plates, but have never got around to it. It's just not that big an issue to me.

 

[El Toro]

I see that one of the admins has decided to move this part of the thread to NEPRT.

I don't really care ... but most of the thread from which this was broken off (the 2016 speculation thread) is equally NEPR.

How do you decide that Hot Rod Zillas rant that it doesn't matter how you deal with a dealer, which was the post this was in response to is not NEPR?

As I said .. I don't care ... but this seems pretty random.

Yeah, I know ... Admins can do what they want. It would be nice if they weren't as pointless as they sometimes seem to be.

 

[El Toro]

Regarding Scooter's post about the clutch soak ... I agree. And I've wondered if that would turn out to be the necessary solution for the AE.

But these computer controlled clutches generally work quite well, so the stutter in the two '09s I've owned has been a surprise.

MCATrophy had some good ideas, and I'm sure that had I followed his solution strategy, things would have been fine. But since the bike is on warranty into April 2017, I'm happy to let Yamaha figure it out.

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

Am I missing something? I'm not sure I understand what the problem is.

 

[El Toro]

Yes, you're missing the motivation for the thread. And I'm missing it too.

I did not start this thread.

I posted in response to another person's post in the 2016 gajillion page speculation thread about the new Gen IV FJR, which the Admin's consider to be a Gen III.

But that's neither here nor there.

I made the comment that rather than buy at D&H Cycle, I would prefer to support my local dealer. And I gave as the reason that I like the local dealer for service issues. So I was willing to pay a premium to support the local guy.

Someone posted what was essentially the argument that you owe nothing to the local dealer and can walk in and ask for service even when you've bought elsewhere. I agree with this. But it is not my style to cut the local guy out of the profit from the sale while at the same time expecting good service after the sale.

In any event, if this was to go to NEPRT, which obviously it has, why not take about two thirds of that thread to NEPRT. I guarantee that at least that much of the thread is worthy of NEPRT. Some of the most idiotic and space wasting posts that have ever been conceived are in that thread.

But what do I know? Not much ...

 

[SkooterG]

Am I missing something? I'm not sure I understand what the problem is.

A shudder in the clutch as you engage it from a stop. More prevalent in early Gen II FJRs. Some early Gen Is did it also. My first 04 never did it. My second 04 did it a little with low miles, rarely later as the miles piled on. My 09 did it worse and more regularly with low miles. Now it is just occasionally when cold. Like I said, I've gotten used to it, and its not that bad so it really doesn't bother me at this point. If it did bother me, I would do the clutch plate soak which is the generally accepted way to fix it.

 

[SkooterG]

El Toro. You need to chill out about NEPRT. NEPRT is not a big deal. Some of my best posts and topics are in NEPRT. I didn't move your thread, but understand why it was moved as the discussion took a turn which had nothing to do with the 2016 Gen III FJR.

 

[rushes]

It might help in the future to ad a link to where a split was off'ed from so we could understand context more better.

Just a suggestion...

 

[FJRPittsburgh]

The only weird clutch operation I've ever experienced on the AE is starting out when the engine isn't warm. On both 08 AE's I've owned, I must wait until the bike is at warm idle (around 1000 rpms) before pulling out. If I start out in 1st while the bike is still on its auto choke running at higher rpms, the clutch doesn't disengage properly.

Others have said their AE doesn't do this. I say try to be a little more observant.

I did a clutch soak on my 1st AE and didn't notice any difference in clutch operation. My recommendation would be to keep the oil level to the top fill line to have a better chance of getting oil to the clutch.

 

[Ignacio]

It might help in the future to ad a link to where a split was off'ed from so we could understand context more better.Just a suggestion...

It would be nice if they weren't as pointless as they sometimes seem to be.

Already covered here. A few folks just need to check themselves a bit more and stick to the subject of threads.

 

[El Toro]

El Toro. You need to chill out about NEPRT. NEPRT is not a big deal. Some of my best posts and topics are in NEPRT. I didn't move your thread, but understand why it was moved as the discussion took a turn which had nothing to do with the 2016 Gen III FJR.

I honestly don't care about NEPRT. However, that whole thread is 90% NEPRT, so splitting this off, and especially splitting it off without taking most of the root of the discussion seemed to me to be sort of heavy handed and without logic. But then, who am I to say.

And honestly, I agree that it is NEPRT ... it's just that so much else is also NEPRT, that maybe more needs to go over to this part of the forum.

Regarding the AE clutch stutter, I think it has been covered, and I think the clutch soak is a commonly recommended solution.

The way that it manifests itself is as follows.

From a dead stop, cold or hot, as the YCCS manages the clutch, it seems to stutter. The clutch does a digital kabuki dance, engage-disengage-engage disengage until you're moving at maybe 7 or 8 mph.

If you were in control of the clutch yourself, you could feather it and beat this issue. But on the AE model, the computer controls the clutch.

With the computer controlling the clutch, you only have control of the throttle. And again, you can try to feather the throttle and mitigate the stutter ... but you can't eliminate it.

It is not something that you can't work around. But the '06 and '08 did not do it, so I know that it is not a persistent artifact of the YCCS program. It must be possible to adjust it out.

MCATrophy has had some good advice on the subject, and I think I would have followed his guidance had the bike not been on the YES service contract.

But with the bike on the service contract, I've been pleased to have a local dealer with a technician suitably trained to sort it out without the need for me to fool with it.

I am optimistic that it is really fixed because I know the technician, and he is a good guy who prides himself on doing good work. We still have those sorts here in Tennessee and it's nice to give them a chance to shine.

Now, with this said, I wonder if it's not time to bifurcate again and branch off to a third thread, perhaps in the Phantom Zone of NEPRT .

 

[HotRodZilla]

I see that one of the admins has decided to move this part of the thread to NEPRT.
I don't really care ... but most of the thread from which this was broken off (the 2016 speculation thread) is equally NEPR.

How do you decide that Hot Rod Zillas rant that it doesn't matter how you deal with a dealer, which was the post this was in response to is not NEPR?

As I said .. I don't care ... but this seems pretty random.

Yeah, I know ... Admins can do what they want. It would be nice if they weren't as pointless as they sometimes seem to be.

Hey, whoa there buddy...Why are you throwing me under the bus? I wasn't ranting,I was giving you what I think is a valid answer. At my dealer, I don't talk to the sales guys, but I bullshit with the service guys all day long. However, THAT wasn't your question that triggered my response.

AND, I didn't get moved to NEPRT because I made sure there was some 2016 content in my post. Haha...You gotta learn to play the game man! Lol...

 

[El Toro]

Yeah, I thought about this. I should have remarked about how I didn't need 6 speeds, and that the color sucks, and that it is definitely a Gen III, and that I know a dealer in Idaho that will do $12,000 OTD .... yada yada yada ....

I don't care about NEPRT. I lost interest in the concept when one of the Admins took one of the automobile tire threads and sent it to NEPRT, and then not too long after another Admin decided that it was an important topic and it came back to the regular forum. And then the thread ran for years, and some guys got literally a hundred posts or more for contributing to it.

And then it went back to NEPRT....

And, as Scooter says, "some of the best threads are in NEPRT."

As for throwing you under the bus, that wasn't my intent. I thought that the whole thing could be brought over here from my first post about getting the '09 fixed at the local dealer.

Incidentally, I'm headed over to pick up the '09 when they open at 9 am, and although winds are blowing hard here, I'm going to see if I can make it stutter. If I can't, I'll be a pretty happy camper.

Here's some content to live by: The FJR, regardless of color, year, number of speeds, type of clutch, or other discriminator, is the best ST style bike out there, and has been for more than a decade. You can take that to the bank.

It's all entertaining ...

 

[Bounce]

Yes, you're missing the motivation for the thread. And I'm missing it too.
I did not start this thread.

I posted in response to another person's post in the 2016 gajillion page speculation thread about the new Gen IV FJR, which the Admin's consider to be a Gen III.

But that's neither here nor there.

I made the comment that rather than buy at D&H Cycle, I would prefer to support my local dealer. And I gave as the reason that I like the local dealer for service issues. So I was willing to pay a premium to support the local guy.

Someone posted what was essentially the argument that you owe nothing to the local dealer and can walk in and ask for service even when you've bought elsewhere. I agree with this. But it is not my style to cut the local guy out of the profit from the sale while at the same time expecting good service after the sale.

In any event, if this was to go to NEPRT, which obviously it has, why not take about two thirds of that thread to NEPRT. I guarantee that at least that much of the thread is worthy of NEPRT. Some of the most idiotic and space wasting posts that have ever been conceived are in that thread.

But what do I know? Not much ...

I was lost too. Thanks for the backstory.

I tried to give my local dealer a chance for my business. I even offered to split the difference between D&H and their price because I wouldn't have to pay travel expenses to/from D&H. The sales guy slid his book forward, slid his chair back, looked me in the eye and said, "Knock yourself out."

I didn't think twice to do just that.

[and there's a lot on ink spilt over something everyone claims not to care about.]

 

[Redfish Hunter]

El Toro, I have a bit of sympathy for you and maybe some advice as well.

I often find myself completely lost when it comes to these "Split/Off Topic" threads. What is the backstory? Where did it come from? What thread spawned this and why?

I have sort of come to realize that if I cannot answer those questions, maybe it should have been split off. For example, if we were all shown a single post with no context or explanation and it was discussing front fork seals, we would all have a pretty good idea of where to look for the rest of the thread. If it were discussing the proper air pressure for a Michelin Exalto? We could all find that thread.

The first post here? I had no idea where the hell this came from.

My issue with the Split/Off Topic is when a good discussion naturally moves and evolves, good information that is still relevant is being shared and suddenly...poof. It is all gone. You cannot tie the two together, and further discussion and information exchange is stopped. I hate that.

I confess I had NO problem with a pic of Selma Hayek randomly inserted into a serious information exchange. I did have issues with suddenly having to read through two pages of irrelevant bullshit just to get to the next important step in bleeding my brakes.

I do get a bit irritated with the Admins over some of these splits but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Well, you can but then you get fat and ugly like HotRodZilla.

At any rate, it is not worth getting wound up over. This is still an awesome forum, it is still populated by awesome folks, and it contains everything you ever wanted to know about an awesome motorcycle.

Would someone please remind me of this next time some of MY shit gets sent to NEPRT? 'Cause I am going to be pissed.

 

[Bounce]

Always remember that the list in NEPRT is based on "or" not "and". It might be any one of those things but doesn't mean that it's always all of them.

It my be recurring but not pointless.