What Do You Know About Residential Solar Power?

[HotRodZilla]

So, I don't know that I would normally bring something like this here, but I know we have a very diverse group, and I'm betting someone has some good info.

This is something I know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about, except that panels get put on the roof, extra power goes back to the grid, and batteries help at night and overcast days. I'm asking because my mom called me today about getting solar added to her house. I have reservations because my mom is 68 years old and they want her to make payments for the next 13 years. It goes like this: the original cost is ~$23,000. The state or the feds offer a $7k rebate, so she would finance the remaining ~$16k with the option to pay it off whenever she wants. The panels are warrantied for 25 years. The company is: Green Solar Technologies.

I wonder what will happen in the winter when my mom has snow and ice on the roof. How does that affect the panels' efficiency? Anyone have a friend get a system like this and then pass away before it gets paid off? I don't want to end up with a $10k bill from these people if my mom decides it's time to move on from this life. It's stupid, because I wouldn't have worried about that 20 years ago, but now, its a fact that we have a limited time here. I know I can ask the company guy this, and I will, but I know he's going to give me the "canned salesman" response, and I want to know if anyone has any good firsthand experience they're willing to share. I do not want my mom getting hosed.

I guess that's about it. I don't know enough about it to even know what hardcore questions to ask. I'd appreciate your input.

Thanks...

HRZ

 

[08FJR4ME]

OK, in Mass we cannot have batteries to store the electricity. They outlawed it. Heaven forbid disconnecting from the grid and not paying those taxes that they so heavily rely on. Everything has to go back to the grid. The problem with solar is every company has a different spin on how to sell it to you. First does she have an above average electric bill? My guess if it is just your mom living in the house I would say no. Strike one! Did you know that the money Uncle sam gives you is considered income? Guess what your annual income has just went up. Strike two! Next, Now that you are your own power company get ready to start filing a 1099 for the money your generating making that electricity. Strike three. Your income just went up again.

So if you want to take another swing at it. Your solar panels after 25 years are only now 50% efficient. They degrade every year they are in use. The only good news is your in Arizona versus up here in New England. You will be able to generate a higher percentage of electricity than we can up here.

Had enough yet? And as you can guess I have not installed any solar on my humble abode. I could keep going.

Dave

 

[Niehart]

PM sent.

 

[garauld]

I have a 12.5 KW system installed and I paid for it up front. Its comprised of 48 panels wired into 3 circuits. Each panel has a micro-inverter. No batteries. Payback is about 14 years after the tax credits. Panels should be good for 25-30 yrs, lifetime warranty on the inverters. I figure the money spent would earn a better return than in the savings account. Snow here in NY is an issue. I found out that as the temps warm up a bit after the snow storm, the snow slides down the panels until it builds up on the roof due to the rough shingles. I added some plastic covering up the shingles so it now slides off easily. I have actually designed a power broom system to brush off the panels, although I am undecided whether to build it due to lack of cost-effectiveness. We have day/night net metering in NY so the grid ends up being a big battery to store my excess power. I over generate my daytime usage during the summer months which is accrued and then use up most of the credits in the fall/winter. I then get paid the wholesale rate value of any credits left over on the true-up date on Mar 1. I generated roughly 14500 KWH last year worth around $1450.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Thanks so far! Gary, my mom said something about inverters, so maybe I'm wrong about the batteries. I don't know if her electric co-op will do credits like yours or how she get's reimbursed for any extra power she puts back into the system.

Dave, thanks for the input. I didn't even consider the rebates would be considered income. That's a dick move if I ever saw one. I'll keep digging over here.

 

[Auburn]

I have a 8.2 KW systems with micro inverters. I have had it since May of last year. Here in Washington, the State subsidizes buying the power I produce at $0.51 per kwh. Because I bought a system that used panels that were produced here in Washington. In addition, I got a sales tax exemption because the panels were produced in Washington. They cap the amount you can be paid to $5,000 dollars per year. I also got a 1/3 of the cost of the system as a Federal tax rebate.

My system is the largest system that I can put on my house where I don't have to tap in front of the service disconnect for the house. In other words my system back feeds my house panel through a 2 pole 30 amp breaker similar to how a generator does. I chose this arrangement so that I can put my generator on the system when the grid goes down which will trigger the solar system with my generator and let it help produce power. (the micro inverters have to sense there is power before they will synch and come on line).

My system faces west and I have a lot of trees around that do interfere with when the sunlight will be providing the best power production. That being said my system produced a little over 5700 kwh July 1st to June 30th (the timeframe they use for the rebate year). This year I will get about $2800 back, not to mention my electric bills are cut by 90% during the summer. I don't produce enough to have an excess due to the location of the system. The solar survey they did said it is about 75% or what it would do if it were southern facing. That being said, my pay back after rebates, lower power bills, and payments for power produced is about 5 years in todays dollars and existing power rates that we pay.

I assume that if she finances the system, they will put a second mortgage on the property to ensure they are paid.

FYI - during the month of July the system produced 1.006 Mwh (megawatt hours or 1006 kwh) that is averaging 32.5 kwh per day - we had unusually sunny weather this summer.

 

[thomasgif]

I have a 18.56kW ground-mount system I paid for upfront. Two 28 panel arrays each tied to two main inverters. No batteries. Payback is about 12-14 years after the tax credits. My panels have a 25yr power warranty (warranted 80% output after 25 yrs).. Like Gary, I figure the money spent would earn a better return than in the savings account and my stock picks tend to suck. Snow has not been an issue here in southern PA. The panels have a steeper tilt than most roof mounts and the snow slides right off. If any does collect, it will slide off before noon on the next sunny day. PA also mandates net-metering, so the grid ends up being a big battery to store my excess power. I over generate my daytime usage during the summer months which is accrued and then use up most of the credits in the fall/winter. I then get paid the then-current rate value ($/kWh) of any credits left over on the true-up date on May 1. I generated roughly 26700 KWH last year.

I have not paid an electric bill since 2015 when I put the system in (**not entirely true- our bill is $15/mo. which is the minimum charges for still being hooked to the grid.)

In PA I can take advantage of four revenue "streams". 1). reduction in monthly power bill 2). payback on any excess generation (net-metering) 3). SREC's (solar renewable energy credits). 4). Tax credit (federal and/or state)

SREC's have a dollar value per MWh produced. Unfortunately in PA that value is currently $5. New Jersey is $165 per SREC, Mass. is $285. Therefore, if I lived in Mass. with my system I would have gotten an additional 26.7*$285 = $7600 last year. This helps reduced the payback period of the investment. PA SREC prices suck, so my paypack is stretching out further.

The 30% federal tax credit is expiring soon, and that will make solar much less financially feasible. A few years ago PA also had a 10% state rebate, so a lot of folks got there systems for nearly "half cost".

Unlike Dave's comment, PA does not consider SREC's, net-metering, or bill reduction as income.

I have a couple pre-built excel spreadsheets for costing a solar system if you are interested in running your own numbers. Also, the government agency NREL has a free program call "SAM" that you can download and it will calculate the output of a solar system. It factors in geographical location, past weather history, etc. It's pretty much what the pro-installers run, just not backed by any specific company.

[img=[URL="https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/173079-what-do-you-know-about-residential-solar-power/"]https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/173079-what-do-you-know-about-residential-solar-power/[/URL] ]

 

[graler]

Wow thanks for the education.

 

[juniorfjr]

For the guys with these systems, what is the usual rate for kw? And do you heat with electricity or another source? Because we have 3 hydro electric dams that are owned by the pud, our electric rate is 2.7 cents per kw hour. I've talked with solar companies and the return isn't there at that rate.

 

[08FJR4ME]

I get a kick out of some folks who say they don't have to pay for electricity anymore. These systems can cost anywhere from 30k to 80K to install. Your just paying in a different way is all.

Please don't take offense to my comments, this is the internet. They are not pointed at any one individual. Just my hap hazard opinions.

Dave,

 

[Mr Bill]

I've not seen solar that makes financial sense yet. I've run numbers on home systems and multi-million dollar systems.

The glossy brochure always has you in a high tax bracket and electric cost soaring every year.

The big thing that worries me is you have hazard waste material on the roof. Who takes that out?

Would you buy a house with a system on the roof and possible contract you have to enter for it?

People still do it because it's a good thing for the environment. I hate my wife's hybrid car too!

 

[Auburn]

For the guys with these systems, what is the usual rate for kw? And do you heat with electricity or another source? Because we have 3 hydro electric dams that are owned by the pud, our electric rate is 2.7 cents per kw hour. I've talked with solar companies and the return isn't there at that rate.

Fred, check out the rules for WA state. on our side of the mountains, PSE has to buy the power back @ .51 per kwh if you get panels manufactured in Washington, I believe .19 per kwh if not made in Washington. I think the numbers apply across the state, but you will have to check. In addition you get a sales tax exemption on WA manufactured panels.

 

[user 6393]

Thanks for the insights. I know everything would be different up here, but we are strongly considering some big changes here before they outlaw rooftop solar and rainwater collection...

As one poster said, if they can't tax/control it, the will do their best to discourage you from using it.

I hate that.

There is a woman in the Maritimes that made National new a few months back. She built an entirely self sufficient and green home, solar powered.

She has been denied occupancy, based on her smoke detector not being wired to the grid.

She has taken to our Court system for resolution

 

[thomasgif]

Dave, you are correct - nothing is free. Even though I "don't pay an electric bill", I did outlay a large sum of money for the system.

In my mind a solar system is an investment choice just like a stock or mutual fund; albeit with a different set of risks / return-on-investment parameters. Each individual person must take an impartial look at the financial numbers based on the situation where they live. I do agree that all solar install companies paint overly optimistic pictures of payback periods and financial returns. That's why I ran my own calculations with much less optimistic rates before I made my decision. Local energy rates, rebates, credits, etc really make a huge difference in the payback calculations.

I currently pay $0.08163 per kWh here, and I get reimbursed at the same rate for any net-metering balance I have. However, if I had the rates the guys have in the PNW of 0.51 / kWh (or even 0.19) I would be "making" a hell of a lot more money with my system from my net-metering balance.

Oh - and no offense taken by anyone's comments. This thread is extremely interesting for me to see the differences of opinion and financial landscapes around the country.

 

[HotRodZilla]

THANK YOU guys for the insight. I'm in the "this is a large investment" crowd, and I absolutely do not want some company putting a lein on my mom's house to.pay for this. Like I said, I think 10 or 20 years ago, maybe I'd of felt different, but I currently feel like she'll end up paying them a lot of money and may never get a return on it. I do know the panels have a 25 year warranty, but I don't know exactly what that covers. I also know NM has full exemption on solar systems, so it sounds like she won't face extra taxes for the solar increasing the value of her home. However, I'm still checking about the rebates and grid returns.

Thomas, I may take you up on that spreadsheet after I call these guys. Auburn, someone sent me your number yesterday, so I may call you. Lol...

At this point, my mom's house is long paid off. It sounds like her bill will be what her "average" electric bill is. In December and January, she runs a higher bill than normal, but otherwise, it seems like a wash.

 

[Bugman]

Download this free guide from here: https://solarpowerrocks.com/get-ultimate-guide-powering-home-solar/

The website also has payback apps and other consumer help. They do not sell anything. Try also Google Project Solar https://www.google.com/get/sunroof#p=0

These two sites should help you. Don't forget that the efficiency of the panels degrades over time.

Is her roof good? Replacing a roof may be more expensive if solar is on it.

 

[user 90626]

All I know is you can't ride them.

 

[russperry]

HRZ - another thing to look at is leasing instead of paying up front a huge sum, you pay monthly for the electricity the panels produce at a lower rate than from the grid. in this scenario its the company that wants to keep the panels and inverters in good shape since you pay them for the power they create.

I did this instead of buying them myself. Is it great financially? Not really - I'm saving about $.16 per kWh compared to max from PGE so annually it's not a giant number. But it took away the pain of capital outlay, and the risk of underperforming panels is on the company, not me.

 

[1951M38]

Seems like it depends where you are....I inspect them and hear and see more bad than good. I have heard one person that said his total bill is higher. Most of the installers I have seen are hacks. Bear in mind you own that 20 yrs agreement even if Mom dies and the person that buys the house doesn't want the system. As has been said, make sure the roof is in good shape as it will add to reroofing costs. I believe if you can do it upfront yourself it works out, but most of the other stuff around here does not. Here, you still buy power at retail and sell over what you use at wholesale, is what I am told. Actually had a guy tell me he wanted to install electric heat pumps so he could use more of what he produces....