Where is Puppychow?

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I sent Brian the spotwalla link and posted it here for the group ride also, you guys could see my last known location from the "Tracking", but SPOTWALLA DOES NOT SHOW THE SOS MARKER/INDICATION. I REPEAT SPOTWALLA DOES NOT SHOW THE SOS MARKER/INDICATION! PLEASE KEEP IN MIND!!

I am lucky to be alive!
I never thought about that either. However, I have to imagine that Jason would be interested or has some sort of explanation for this. Are you going to follow up with him on it since you have specific SOS data as an example?

Glad you're OK my friend. :)

 
OK so I saw your question and I am still awake, but here is what I found in the Device Managment help pages for Spotwalla. Read the "Note". So, it is well documented that Spotwalla does NOT receive 911/SOS messages from SPOT, Inc.

It was just dumb ol' me who never knew! Well off to bed now for sure, hope this helps.. :-/

Could possibly be liability concerns for Spotwalla. 911/SOS is something pretty darn serious to screw up and since Spotwalla is a service run voluntarily and by donations and is quite unlike SPOT, Inc in that regard. I think it is pretty self explanatory why they would not want to get involved in that.

A SPOT device sends five types of messages:

  • OK
  • Help
  • Custom
  • Tracking
  • 911/SOS
Ok, Help and Custom messages are sent manually by pushing the appropriate button. Tracking messages are sent automatically in 10-minute intervals. SpotWalla can import all of these messages and store them forever.

Note: SpotWalla does not receive or process in any way, shape or form 911/SOS messages from SPOT, Inc. Additionally, while SpotWalla does receive Help messages from SPOT, Inc., SpotWalla does not provide value-added services associated with Help messages. For instance, SPOT, Inc. provides Road Side Service assistance for an additional monthly fee.

 
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I sent Brian the spotwalla link and posted it here for the group ride also, you guys could see my last known location from the "Tracking", but SPOTWALLA DOES NOT SHOW THE SOS MARKER/INDICATION. I REPEAT SPOTWALLA DOES NOT SHOW THE SOS MARKER/INDICATION! PLEASE KEEP IN MIND!!

I am lucky to be alive!
I never thought about that either. However, I have to imagine that Jason would be interested or has some sort of explanation for this. Are you going to follow up with him on it since you have specific SOS data as an example?

Glad you're OK my friend. :)
First and foremost, I'm glad it all worked out and you're on the mend.

Second, I would really like to know what SPOT has to say about the wrong SOS location. It seems to me that kind of critical information would be relayed with the SOS.

Third, in my recent get off, my spot broke off from it's mount and I had to look for it in the woods. I mainly use it for tracking but that would have been bad news with a broken leg or worse. I'm definitely going to look for a way to mount it to myself. Perhaps the clear window pocket that Velcros to the arm or leg of the Roadcrafter. You could easily sew the Velcro strips or the pocket itself to any gear. Just a thought.

Once again, glad it all worked out OK and we have a chance to learn from it.

EDIT: LINK Ummm...Duh. I should have looked first.

 
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Nice, just got my first Stich on tuesday and I was wondering what all that velcro was for. I had my assumptions but thanks for confirming.

 
It scares me to open emails or posts that are only titled with someone's name or a vague reference like this one - too many times in the last few years it's just been bad, sad news. I am hugely relieved that, for all your misadventures, you'll be on the mend. :friends:

 
Brian, just to let you know this is a really good group of folks here and we all really like and care about Sam. I know that no one here would do anything purposefully to abandon or lose a rider along the way and those that were involved are dealing with these issues personally.

I was not with this group when the events happened but when I reached Klamath Falls, and it was noted that Sam was not with the group, I can assure you there was a lot of concern and action to try to reach him and find out if he was okay.

As Tom mentioned, it seems like it was a series of "small" things that morphed into something bigger... but all seem to be willing to learn from it to ensure it will not happen again. Lessons learned and I'm really glad it wasn't any worse of an outcome.

 
There have been some really painful knocks pounded into me this weekend. Caused by costly mistakes, which I don't think I will forget, nor would I repeat those mistakes. Yes, of course material and monetary damages are costly and it appears they will be, as for insurance purposes, deer strikes are not collision coverage, but "comprehensive" - which I do not have, but I digress.
Just another quick note. I've carried minimum coverage on bikes before where they were older and had little value and sometimes the insurance can rack up to be worth more than the bike in two years of ownership. One thing I've found though, collision seems to be the one that hits the hardest to add on to your insurance, but comprehensive often does a very small amount of damage to your premium.

If you don't use an agent, I have to say that the internet has made insurance shopping so much easier. In the past you'd have to go through a big pain to fill out forms and such and then be told how much you asked for is going to cost. Knowing what individual pieces are affecting your premium wasn't really there. Some sites, such as Progressive.com, will allow you to tinker with your policy and be able to see pretty much immediately what the impact is. Even if you don't buy from them it'll give you some idea of what you want. Typically to keep costs down I've always settled with the tried and true $500 deductible across the board. I found by tinkering that going down on the deductible on collision will raise my rates by a whole lot, but I was able to take comprehensive down to a $100 deductible and my rates only went up a few bucks a month. Now I run a $500/$100 deductible on those two.

I had no idea that deer strikes counted as comprehensive and this is one more thing I've learned from puppychow's incident. If you haven't taken a look at your policy, go check it out, find somebody that'll let you tinker with the coverage and show the rates and see what you can get for your money. It could be totally worth it in the end if you end up needing it.

 
So I was just killing time on Fbook and learned Sam had been in an accident. So I knew there would be more info over here, and I found this thread.

Gives me some chills, and I am so glad you are going to be OK.

My deer strike was last May, and fortunately I was going slower than you, approx 35 mph, and I was wearing my fully armored Aerostich Roadcrafter. Because of that, both I and my bike were fine.

So all I can add is that obviously the faster you are going when you hit the deer, the more damage that can take place.

Thanks for posting the educational details, and heal quick and well, Sam.

 
Brian, just to let you know this is a really good group of folks here and we all really like and care about Sam. I know that no one here would do anything purposefully to abandon or lose a rider along the way and those that were involved are dealing with these issues personally.

Tyler - that is why I took the time to read through the thread where you guys were setting up your ride and then waited until I had cooled off a bit before opening this thread to make this constructive instead of accusative. As I said after seeing some of the responses; it appears that those involved did take corrective actions and did what they were capable of at the time given limited access to communications a location like that presents us with. Is it what I would have done in a similar situation? Probably not, but I've been around long enough, having seen more than 1/2 dozen riders I personally knew who did not fare as well as Sam did. I've been at the end of a ride or rally sitting around the hotel where we found out the worst news about a fellow rider (5 times), I've also been in Sam's situation so I know it from both ends.

I think this thread has achieved what I really wanted to do. It found out the "rest of the story", it has helped us all understand more what went wrong and it has helped (hopefully) many take corrective actions on how they interact with their emergency equipment. That is all good stuff.

Some additional things for riders to consider that Sam and I just talked about:

1. Make sure you have testimonial documents prepared and that someone knows about them so they can be executed (think Will, Medical Power of Attorney).

2. In Sam's case, I need to have contact information for his REAL father - which I do not have.

3. Make sure you have an up to date ICE document and it is accessible to someone (most likely your spouse, beneficiary, or emergency contact).

These are not fun things to think about but it is good preparation and much better than avoiding this subject.

So do not feel bad Tyler, it was not my intent to make you feel so, but rather to get to the bottom of what had happened and it has been enlightening.

 
Brian, good post. I have ridden with Sam a number of times, and I consider him to be a superior rider to myself. He frequently rides alone, and with groups like this one. The dynamic among most of the FJR riders is that we rarely form formal groups, even when we are traveling to an event.

RubenRun021.jpg


We tend to think of our selves as a group with a common destination. We may ride in a pack, but it's informal. We might drop in or out of the group at any time, and shift position in the pack. This ride does not start with a rider briefing, designation of a Captain and Sweep or any of the other trappings of group rides I used to use when I was a regular ride captain of a motorcycle club. Most of these people have no communications or formal training in group riding, yet are very capable, considerate and courteous riders.

What is difficult is knowing precisely when you have transitioned from the informal ride group, to a formal ride group that requires discipline, organization and accountability, beyond what we would ordinarily have as we ride with a friend or two. When we split off from the main group, we informed Doug we were going to take Medicine Lake Road. It was on his assurance it was paved, I decided to go that way. What I didn't know is that the road known as Medicine Lake to Lava Beds had a large unpaved section, and it was necessary to go around on Tionesta Rd (FR 97).

Edited to remove BS

 
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When Puppychow said he felt he couldn't keep up with the group, I have to say, that dog don't hunt. Sam can outpace me on almost any road, and I know he can dust Sacramento Mike and Phil who are relatively slow riders (no offense, but that's the facts). I still think he stopped for a picture or something else. He slipped by us in the 120 seconds or less that we lost sight of him based on my GPS logs.
Got to say Tom, that post of yours is odiferous and the bullshit meter is going off the charts. I am sure a moderator will be along to keep us back on track, and constructive, but I will have to set the record straight here. This is what I posted.

" As it ended up I was riding sweep again and I tried to keep the last rider in sight, but the group was moving briskly and I felt like I was playing "keep up/catch up" on this narrow one lane road (esp. after we had all just recently stopped on this same road because a fawn was sighted)"

Yes, I did say I felt I couldn't keep up with the group, I stated that based on the fact that I felt the group was riding too briskly for what I deemed in my opinion to be a safe riding speed for the narrow one lane road that we were on, esp. after the fact that we had a fawn sighting very recently. I had a choice, speed up when I thought it was unsafe to do so, or risk losing sight of the rider in front of me. Both bad choices and both were mistakes, and I guess I picked one mistake over another.

As for your pure unsubstantiated speculation (maybe that makes you feel better to do that) that I stopped for a picture or something else, and so lost the group, you know what, quite frankly and I am saying this in the nicest possible way - screw you buddy!

I made my series of mistakes and I own them, in the end it was I who rode myself to where ever I rode myself to and I who chose to ride there with whomever I rode there with. It's my fault and I am paying for it and learning from it and I know for sure I will not be making those mistakes again.

Also, talking of more bullshit. Here is some more from your post earlier in this thread..

I talked with Sam a little while ago before this thread was posted. I'll be going over to visit tomorrow. I have and will apologize for anything I might have done differently to change what happened. I would ask that the forum use this thread constructively, rather than to blame, recognizing there may be plenty to go around.
Let's see this thread was posted by Brian at 11:15AM on Sept 19th. My phone records show your first contact with me email/phone whichever was at 1:16pm on Sept 19th. So now this is FACT, not unsubstantiated speculation. So, which dog don't hunt here? Who is speaking untruths? It was mentioned to me that this thread will ferret out those who had been hiding so far. Makes one go Hmm...but I will keep that to myself..

Also, lets see....coming over today Sept 20th to visit? I neither receive a call or a visit today. I have been home all day. Maybe you got preoccupied elsewhere and I understand. So, don't bother and Thanks!

With my apologies to the forum moderators. I will get back to being constructive.

 
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I'm not certain I agree on the black and whiteness of a group ride. There's got to be gray area somewhere in between. Maybe a route doesn't need to be pre-ridden and fuel stops preplanned and such. But at what point are you riding with your buddies that you don't look out for them? You look out for your buddies and you communicate with your buddies. Just because you don't have a captain and a sweep doesn't mean you can't wait up and make sure everyone is ok at a turn and keep an eye on your buddy in the mirrors. And at said intersections, if you want to leave the informal group you let someone know.

I don't know that I've ever actually been on a group ride that was so well planned out as TominCa laid out....dang, that sounds like a ton of work for the organizer and I'd love to go on one, but most of my rides have been informal groups rides. Heck, I've even been on one where the ride leader was riding sweep. That actually worked out better than you'd think because everyone was forced to wait on sweep to show up to tell us which way to go.

 
What is difficult is knowing precisely when you have transitioned from the informal ride group, to a formal ride group that requires discipline, organization and accountability, beyond what we would ordinarily have as we ride with a friend or two. When we split off from the main group, we informed Doug we were going to take Medicine Lake Road. It was on his assurance it was paved, I decided to go that way. What I didn't know is that the road known as Medicine Lake to Lava Beds had a large unpaved section, and it was necessary to go around on Tionesta Rd (FR 97).
I agree with gixxerjasen that no matter how informal a riding group is, it is a group ride and the basics etiquette of group riding and safety precautions need to be followed. Doesn't matter if you are riding with a friend or two or half a dozen, it still requires discipline, organization and accountability, not less so if the group is larger, but more so because of it!

As for people leaving and joining the group at will. When we first left Quincy from the Chevron gas station. Sac Mike stuck around reading some maps. I was supposed to be sweep. What did I do? Did I take off after the group and leave Sac Mike behind? No, I waited for him, till he specifically told me. "Go on Sam, I will catch up". Then I left.. Sac Mike wasn't left behind, he verbally communicated with me that he wanted to linger for a few more minutes and wanted me to keep going.

As for AJ being left behind, the group pulled over and Tyler headed back for one reason or another, BeemerDons waited for her to come back as he always does and good on him for doing so. AJ then probably realized that Sac Mike was missing and he took off also behind Tyler or he just took off after Tyler, I am not going to guess for him, he is an experienced rider and LEO, he probably knows what he is doing. Although, if anyone would have asked the sweep where Sac MIke was, I would have told them and I mentioned this to Doug when the group pulled over on Hwy 147. AJ wasn't left behind either, he left on his own accord and he was going to get picked up by Sac Mike on his way up. Mass confusion and no proper communication. I am not pointing fingers at anyone, just relating what happened. There is a reason why we call these rolling cluster-fecks!!
rolleyes.gif


Also, before we split off from the main riding group, Doug had warned us, about going on Medicine Lake (even though you and I both thought we could do it), he thought it was a bad idea because it was mid afternoon already, and he was right. I also remember and believed and Doug was also of this impression when I talked to him (I am loathing to speak for him), that you said you were *not* going to lead us to Medicine Lake and Lava Beds anymore, but just going to ride as a group on Harris Springs to Hwy 97 ahead of the group that Doug was leading. Doug mentioned that he was hoping he would see us on that route along the way, and then when he didn't, he realized that there had been change of plans along the way (which I wasn't aware of from the beginning, once again my fault for not confirming what our route was going to be). When we turned on Medicine Lake Rd I had a dilemma, keep with the riding group I was with, or wait on Harris Springs road for Doug's group. I chose to stick with the group I was with, besides the group was still together when we turned off on Medicine Lake Rd, pretty hard to miss me riding sweep with those (now dead) Clearwater Krista's glaring to know that the group was still together. Another thing was that we didn't stop at that turn, and I was *not* going to peel off on my own to wait for Doug, without telling anyone, so I stuck along. In the final analysis I am responsible for the personal decisions I make and I should and am shouldering the consequences.

One main takeaway for me and it is my opinion and my learning - what others chose to do so with this is their own choice. When it is mid-afternoon and beyond, stick to the main highways. Backroads and remote goat trails are fun, at the high point of the day. These roads are usually overgrown with vegetation and you usually do not see what is lurking in that overgrowth. Mid afternoon onwards, stick to the main highways where there is a wider clearing on either side of the road. Later towards the afternoon is when the rodents are starting to become more active and start to move about to forage. Great time of day, if you are a hunter, but I think I am done hunting deer with my motorcycle. Once is 1 more than what I wanted to do..

 
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Wow--this is really the most thought provoking post I've read on here, maybe ever. I tend to ride alone (heading out for a 1200 mile weekend ID/WY/UT/CO today). I've gone to a few "events" and ridden w/some other riders.

No easy answers here, but to me, this definitely confirms to me that the SPOT is well worth the cost. My wife has stressed far less since I've had it. I don't "track", just hit the "OK button" about once an hour or every time I turn off and start down another road. I feel very confident in my riding, but those damn deer are my biggest worry. I've imagined myself hitting one and getting to that emergency button on the SPOT after a get-off, but reading about your experience is really very sobering....

Heal up, man. Thanks for sharing your story with us.

 
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Sam. Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Glad you are still with us.

As for group riding, well, not sure I agree with a lot of what is being said here. We are all adults. Communication is key.

Group rides here in Arizona tend to have no organization to a fault. But most of the peeps I ride with tend to be independent folk who don't want a lot of rules or structure. The mantra in our group rides tends to be 'ride your own ride'.

We need to do better, and I have mentioned that to mi bastard step-pappy a time or two. But at the same time, as a big time IBA guy most of my riding is done by myself in challenging conditions or terrain. I don't need, nor want a babysitter.

Once again, communication is key so everyone that IS on a group ride together is on the same page.

So what I want to know is....... as invaluable as SPOT is, why the freak were they giving out the wrong location?!?! That is EXTREMELY concerning to me. How to you screw up LAT/LONG coordinates?

 
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I was going to avoid this thread--responding to it, that is--but I'm jumping in to agree about the Spot Tracker thing, and with Sam about the idea of ratcheting up the safety consciousness as evening approaches. When we found ourselves on that crummy forest service road so late in the day, I was not comfortable for all the reasons you named, but at that point, it was pretty much a no-choice situation. I OWN a Spot Tracker, too, which is why I feel especially like an idiot. The subscription lapsed a few months ago and I didn't renew it, but I should have, and I will. I'll also think about a better mounting situation than under the plastic on my tank bag map compartment.

Just to try to clarify a little of the confusion and misunderstanding about what happened on this ride, I did tell Sam to go ahead of me, and I would have had about a half mile to make up, but I saw AJ at the pump of the Chevron station across the street from me, and pulled up to ride with him. He was having some trouble getting the earplugs he'd just opened set up and getting the wires routed through his suit. I think he was a little confused about which plug went into which ear. :rolleyes: Anyway, we were a few miles behind the group when we took off, although we did a hell of a job catching up.

And we WOULD have caught up, too, except I blew the turnoff from 70 to 89, staying on 70 for at least three or four miles. AJ finally passed me and signaled a U-turn after checking his GPS. (More technology I don't use much.) :unsure:

I want to say this to you, Sam. Despite statements on this thread to the contrary, you bet your ass we thought to ask the question "Where is Sam". And we DID think to retrace the road we'd just come down--carefully and more than once. And yes, we DID wonder why you didn't show up at the hotel. When we couldn't find you, we certainly didn't forget about you. When we finally decided that you must have somehow continued on your own, finding your way to the hotel, we had planned to find your Spotwalla link if you weren't there, and proceed from there. When it seemed to show you still in the area where we lost touch, we were definitely not going to just let it go. Whether we'd have left there to mount an independent search in the dark or not I can't say--probably not. But we'd absolutely have notified emergency services with the information we had, and accompanied them back if required, and probably if not required too.

Right then, within a very few minutes after we got to the hotel, and while everybody was talking about this and trying to figure out what to do next, we were all informed that Tyler had received a call from you with the basic information of what had happened, including that your friends were there to help you out, so rousting rescue teams was off the table.

Believe me, I still feel badly that we didn't send one or two riders south on the main road we'd come up, but you literally did pass that turnoff in the time it took us to ride maybe one mile, stop for maybe one minute, and turn around and get back there. And we really didn't think you'd have gone back that way anyway--that was the ONE direction we all knew didn't go where we wanted to go. Since Russ and I eventually headed to Klamath Falls via that dirt road we'd turned back to avoid, we thought it was possible--maybe likely--that you'd taken that route after you lost contact with the rest of us.

Anyway, I'm glad you're reading this, and sorry we weren't the ones to find you. I'll just close with this. At breakfast on Sunday morning, with several of us in riding gear and about 30 FJRs parked outside of the hotel in LaPine, a lady approached us and asked if we knew an FJR rider named Samir. Well yes, why are you asking. It was Nancy Koerner and her husband John, the BMW riders who first found you. They'd been very concerned about you ever since and were very relieved to hear you had been seen at the hospital and released. Nice folks.

I understand Brian R's frustration and upset when the "story" on this first broke, but I've got to say, Brian, you made some incendiary and inaccurate comments that I wish you'd held off on until you had more information. We didn't handle this perfectly, but we sure as hell tried.

 
So what I want to know is....... as invaluable as SPOT is, why the freak were they giving out the wrong location?!?! That is EXTREMELY concerning to me. How to you screw up LAT/LONG coordinates?
I'd REALLY like to know what Spot has to say about that. I can only imagine what would happen in the back country.

 
As for group riding, well, ......... 'ride your own ride'.
This IS the mantra for most of us ScooterG - we both know that. That saying does not mean you just leave a rider to their own devices. When someone is with you and you have no reason to expect them to fall off (they did not signal, get your attention, stop and tell you they were heading elsewhere) then you have a problem when all of a sudden they are not anywhere around. If you are with a group then the rest of the riders have a problem also.

You do not need to formalize everything, the more experienced the riders the less formalization is needed (and the less wanted). Just simple consideration for your fellow riders can clear up many possible clusterfucks. Riders should know they are responsible for the rider behind. The rider behind should know that before they peel off they need to somehow signal the rider in front of them so they do not get concerned (you don't even need to tell experienced riders these things - probably how it goes in Arizona with your groups). Not that formal, but considerate. This may be just the communication you are referring too.

On a lighter note - I'm guessing any group you ride with has to ASSIGN someone to you just to pick up the pieces when (not if) you crash. They probably do not even tell you and just let you think you are "riding your own ride". That's why it's so good to see Art back around, he can keep an eye on you.

 
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