Batteries!

[lnewlf]

Alright, so last spring [2013] she wouldn't crank so I put the electrolyte in a new el cheapo AC Delco and charged it, then when I took out the 3 year old Westco I found a loose negative terminal which was prolly the problem but since I set up the Delco I put it in.. The Westco sat on a shelf in an unheated sub zero barn till now and just for the hey of it I put it on a Tender overnight. took it off this AM, let it sit for a few hours, and it reads 13.5.. How can this be?? surface charge ? I don't have a load tester..

 

[Fred W]

Yep, surface charge. Just hook it up to a small load for a short while (headlight, air compressor, or whatever 12V device you have around) and that will bleed off that surface charge pretty quickly. Then let it settle and read it again. The battery is probably fine.

More importantly, how is the AC Delco battery working for you? I have one of those ultra cheapos from Amazon sitting on the shelf too (still dry).

 

[lnewlf]

Ah- thanks for that...I've been trying to think of something 12V that I could load the battery with.- mini compressor is perfect..

As far as the AC Delco goes....after 1 year it is fine...shows 12,79 on the Datel and spins the starter like mad...so far, so good

 

[Fred W]

Cool. Good to hear. Every once in a while you take a chance and get more than you paid for!

 

[C&C]

My A/C Delco is also performing (very) well (I guess it is coming up on a year). While (maybe) too early to tell, I believe I'm getting more service from the Delco than from the Westco (it replaced). So far the A/C Delco deal was just that, a good deal.

 

[SoCalFJR1300]

https://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYT14B-4.html The Yausa in my FZ is 8 years old and working fine.

That's because it's the OEM battery isn't it?

Aftermarkets won't last that long....

OEM batteries go in new motorcycles, aftermarket batteries go in old motorcycles. Buy an aftermarket battery and put it in a brand new motorcycle, how long will it last now?

Not as long as the OEM.

OK, I'll bite, show your work. What is the difference between an OEM battery and an aftermarket battery, what makes OEM last longer? All good batteries get sold to OEMs and all batteries with defects are sold to the public?

Battery manufactures have product manufacturing lines and they are not setup for one line to be OEM and another to be aftermarket. There is a lot of tooling, fixtures and highly refined processes that go into making batteries and to have a 'special recipe' for one customer and another variant for the aftermarket isn't practical. FWIW, the P/N of the OEM battery is the same as the aftermarket, if the batteries are different how do they keep the OEM inventory and aftermarket inventory sorted? FWIW II, OEMs try to manage cost and typically will not put top of the line components like tires, seats and suspensions on their products unless these components let the motorcycle compete in a niche performance area. Why would a battery be an exception to cost control over other items?

The difference is aftermarket batteries in the USA are made from ALL recycled materials (weaker)which don't last as long as batteries made in Japan which are not.

That's why "typically" (and like anything else there are exceptions to the rule) the OEM battery (made in Japan from all NEW materials) will greatly outlast a UAS aftermarket recycled battery.

 

[RossKean]

Nonsense! Much of the lead used for battery manufacture anywhere is recycled and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's easier to make a high purity lead from "old" lead than it is from lead ore. The purity specification for any lead used for manufacture of electrolytic devices is very high and the is NO chemical difference of lead purified from recycled scrap and virgin lead from concentrate.

One manufacturer may have higher (or lower) material specifications and one physical design or chemical composition may be superior but it has nothing to do with whether the materials are recycled or not.

 

[RadioHowie]

Well DAMN, Ross...it's used lead. Can't nearly hold as much amps as new lead, right?

The key is, OEM batteries use a sulfuric acid mix as the primary electrolyte. It's common knowledge aftermarket batteries are supplied with recycled pickle juice.

 

[SoCalFJR1300]

Nonsense! Much of the lead used for battery manufacture anywhere is recycled and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's easier to make a high purity lead from "old" lead than it is from lead ore. The purity specification for any lead used for manufacture of electrolytic devices is very high and the is NO chemical difference of lead purified from recycled scrap and virgin lead from concentrate.
One manufacturer may have higher (or lower) material specifications and one physical design or chemical composition may be superior but it has nothing to do with whether the materials are recycled or not.

Not nonsense at all.

Japan uses NEW materials we use recycled.

I didn't say the lead mattered but the cells do and they fail.

Believe what you want, talk to someone (who's knowledgeable) in the battery manufacturing industry.

Recycled material can be weaker and I'll give you an example.

I was representing a company that made valves and fittings for pool pumps.

they used new raw material for all their plastic fittings.

Their competition used recycled/regrind plastic in their fittings, and their fitting threads were not holding and popping out of the pump volutes and causing leaks.

The ONLY difference was they used regrind/recycled plastic and the company I represented used NEW plastic

The ONLY difference between the Japanese batteries and the USA batteries is that the USA ones used recycled materials.

 

[MrZappo]

https://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYT14B-4.html The Yausa in my FZ is 8 years old and working fine.

That's because it's the OEM battery isn't it?

Aftermarkets won't last that long....

OEM batteries go in new motorcycles, aftermarket batteries go in old motorcycles. Buy an aftermarket battery and put it in a brand new motorcycle, how long will it last now?

Not as long as the OEM.

OK, I'll bite, show your work. What is the difference between an OEM battery and an aftermarket battery, what makes OEM last longer? All good batteries get sold to OEMs and all batteries with defects are sold to the public?

Battery manufactures have product manufacturing lines and they are not setup for one line to be OEM and another to be aftermarket. There is a lot of tooling, fixtures and highly refined processes that go into making batteries and to have a 'special recipe' for one customer and another variant for the aftermarket isn't practical. FWIW, the P/N of the OEM battery is the same as the aftermarket, if the batteries are different how do they keep the OEM inventory and aftermarket inventory sorted? FWIW II, OEMs try to manage cost and typically will not put top of the line components like tires, seats and suspensions on their products unless these components let the motorcycle compete in a niche performance area. Why would a battery be an exception to cost control over other items?

The difference is aftermarket batteries in the USA are made from ALL recycled materials (weaker)which don't last as long as batteries made in Japan which are not.

That's why "typically" (and like anything else there are exceptions to the rule) the OEM battery (made in Japan from all NEW materials) will greatly outlast a UAS aftermarket recycled battery.

I will point out that all lead (or any other element for that matter) has been around since the beginning of time and cannot be "new" or "old" ... Saying this is like saying that the billion year old lead just taken out of the ground is better than the billion and one year old lead taken from a used battery ...

There is no scientific basis to say that the recycled lead is "weaker"... There is no such thing as weaker lead ... It is just lead no matter where it comes from ...

Now, I cant comment on if the Yuasa GT battery comes off the same manufacturing line at the same time as the seemingly same battery that is a "YT" as opposed to a "GT" but, I am in agreement that it makes no sense (especially financial sense) to change the line and make crappier batteries only to slap a "Y" on them as opposed to a "G". I also don't know if the GT ones are made overseas and the YT's are made here ... But, they look identical, they seemingly perform exactly the same. They weigh the exact same amount and I have heard tales of praise as well as complaints about both of them.

They are lead acid based batteries. Sometimes you get a dud and sometimes you get a gem. In either case, it is tied to a defect of some sort or maybe a bad bump or bad maintenance or a colder winter. That's it ...

 

[SoCalFJR1300]

https://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/sYT14B-4.html The Yausa in my FZ is 8 years old and working fine.

That's because it's the OEM battery isn't it?

Aftermarkets won't last that long....

OEM batteries go in new motorcycles, aftermarket batteries go in old motorcycles. Buy an aftermarket battery and put it in a brand new motorcycle, how long will it last now?

Not as long as the OEM.

OK, I'll bite, show your work. What is the difference between an OEM battery and an aftermarket battery, what makes OEM last longer? All good batteries get sold to OEMs and all batteries with defects are sold to the public?

Battery manufactures have product manufacturing lines and they are not setup for one line to be OEM and another to be aftermarket. There is a lot of tooling, fixtures and highly refined processes that go into making batteries and to have a 'special recipe' for one customer and another variant for the aftermarket isn't practical. FWIW, the P/N of the OEM battery is the same as the aftermarket, if the batteries are different how do they keep the OEM inventory and aftermarket inventory sorted? FWIW II, OEMs try to manage cost and typically will not put top of the line components like tires, seats and suspensions on their products unless these components let the motorcycle compete in a niche performance area. Why would a battery be an exception to cost control over other items?

The difference is aftermarket batteries in the USA are made from ALL recycled materials (weaker)which don't last as long as batteries made in Japan which are not.

That's why "typically" (and like anything else there are exceptions to the rule) the OEM battery (made in Japan from all NEW materials) will greatly outlast a UAS aftermarket recycled battery.

I will point out that all lead (or any other element for that matter) has been around since the beginning of time and cannot be "new" or "old" ... Saying this is like saying that the billion year old lead just taken out of the ground is better than the billion and one year old lead taken from a used battery ...

There is no scientific basis to say that the recycled lead is "weaker"... There is no such thing as weaker lead ... It is just lead no matter where it comes from ...

Now, I cant comment on if the Yuasa GT battery comes off the same manufacturing line at the same time as the seemingly same battery that is a "YT" as opposed to a "GT" but, I am in agreement that it makes no sense (especially financial sense) to change the line and make crappier batteries only to slap a "Y" on them as opposed to a "G". I also don't know if the GT ones are made overseas and the YT's are made here ... But, they look identical, they seemingly perform exactly the same. They weigh the exact same amount and I have heard tales of praise as well as complaints about both of them.

They are lead acid based batteries. Sometimes you get a dud and sometimes you get a gem. In either case, it is tied to a defect of some sort or maybe a bad bump or bad maintenance or a colder winter. That's it ...

Again, the ONLY difference in the OEM batteries and the aftermarket is that the aftermarket ones used recycled materials.

Pretty obvious.

And it's not necessarily the LEAD, but the cells and other metals they use.

And if you guys say it's all nonsense what are YOUR reasons why the OEM batteries greatly outlast the aftermarket ones??

 

[RossKean]

Its all about material specifications, manufacturing tolerances, device design and Quality Control.

I have no idea whether domestic manufacturers require the same raw material specs as the supposedly superior Japanese manufacturers but the real or imagined failure rate is not due to "recycled" materials. It may (or may not) be due to a different battery design or different manufacturing tolerances. Lead (and other metals in the battery) are not "recycled" in their original form but may be remanufactured. There is NO reason why they should be inferior or measurably different in any way from "fresh" metals. The physical structure of the battery (casings and separators etc.) might include plastics that have a component of recycled material but, again, this material does not have to be inferior just because it may contain recycled materials. By the way, battery failures are generally the result of failure in the battery chemistry (sulfation etc.) or degradation of the lead grids (shorting or open cells). I have never heard of the plastic case failing. If the glass mats (separators) fail, it is NOT a function of the use of recycled glass fibre mats - they cannot be recycled in any form (possibly remanufactured from scrap glass but not recycled glass fibre). Again, no reason for the material to be sub-standard in any way.

It seems to be assumed that the Japanese batteries are only using "new" materials in their manufacture but the domestic batteries use recycled materials - not sure where that comes from. It is also assumed that Japanese OEM (of any sort) is superior to domestic (of any sort). Are we comparing USA Yuasa to Japanese Yuasa or Yuasa to Westco, Motobatt etc.? Does anyone have comparative material specifications for Japanese, domestic or other "foreign" manufacturers? Maybe Yuasa (Japan) has stricter manufacturing tolerances? Perhaps they use a more stringent QA/QC program or more intensive testing of batteries before they are shipped? Is their battery design better? There may be a lot of reasons why OEM batteries seem to last longer but the use of "recycled" materials is NOT one of them.

By the way, I am a chemist and have worked extensively with metals and alloys sold to battery manufacturers for use in batteries. I also have more than a nodding acquaintance with battery chemistries of various sorts.

For my money, I will go to a Yuasa when (if) my original battery fails.

 

[3dogs]

You can learn how to actually test a battery instead of just replacing it Here>>>> https://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2014.pdf on page 22.

 

[ionbeam]

That's because it's the OEM battery isn't it?...Aftermarkets won't last that long....

I'm still waiting for the reports/reviews/evaluations that demonstrate the difference between OEM and aftermarket. Once we establish that this is really a 'fact' then there is something to look into.

In all the battery reports, datasheets & evaluations I have read, I have never seen OEM vs aftermarket as an element of the paper. I have designed battery back-ups into electronic and electrical systems and in the process I've read a lot of battery info. Even in critical application/high reliability batteries I've never seen batteries classified this way.

It is a fact that some reground plastics, a chemically fabricated material, won't perform as well as a virgin product. Lead is an element that is mined, and as an element always has the same characteristics. More, plastics are a chemically processed, man made material; naturally occurring metallic elements can be electroplated out to purify the material endlessly. The H2SO4 must be just that, if it is H2SO3 or anything else then it isn't sulfuric acid, only the specific gravity of the acid as a solution can vary. A fully charged PbSO4 battery will have a specific gravity of 1.265 at 80° F. There is no better test of the charge state of a battery.

 

[MrZappo]

Rosskean and ionbean are spot on ... And for the record, I am NOT a chemist .... But I understand that elemental metals are the same today as they were 100000 years ago and will be that way 100000 years from now weather of not they were ever used in a battery ... Now, as stated, plastics is a different story. Those are a compound ? (A compound I think) that could degrade ... But, the elements that make up the compound themselves are not changed ...

My opinion (Which has been proven in the past to be worth nothing to anyone but me) is that there is no specific evidence of OEM "GT" Yuasa lasting longer than Aftermarket "YT" Yuasa ... But they are also very high quality batteries ... There is definitely evidence of "crap" brand batteries failing more than "premium" brand batteries ...

I think it has as much to do with conscientious owners versus lax owners. Do you let it get too cold ? Do you live where your garage is always 120 degrees in the summer ? Do you use a battery tender ? A good one ? Heat will KILL a battery much faster than cold will ... Is this a factor in a lot of the reported failures ?

I will "believe what I want" but Ill base it on the science of it ...

My 2 cents ...

 

[SoCalFJR1300]

It seems to be assumed that the Japanese batteries are only using "new" materials in their manufacture but the domestic batteries use recycled materials - not sure where that comes from.

Not "assumed" the Japanese use new material.

It comes from the EPA or another government agency telling the manufacturers that they have to use recycled materials.

The fact that the ONLY difference in batteries made in the USA and Japan is the fact that recycled materials are made by one and virgin/new materials by the other speaks for itself, and that's my opinion of course you're welcome to yours.

 

[SoCalFJR1300]

I think it has as much to do with conscientious owners versus lax owners.

So a guy has a new bike and that OEM battery lasts for 8 years.

He buys a new aftermarket battery and only gets 3 years out of that.

Why would you assume he treated that aftermarket battery any different?

 

[SoCalFJR1300]

That's because it's the OEM battery isn't it?...Aftermarkets won't last that long....

I'm still waiting for the reports/reviews/evaluations that demonstrate the difference between OEM and aftermarket. Once we establish that this is really a 'fact' then there is something to look into.

I already told you, the ONLY difference is recycled VS new material.

 

[ionbeam]

You are telling us that OEM batteries have a different life span from an aftermarket battery, I'm asking you to show us *anything* in writing that shows this is a fact.

Rotten old used lead that no longer contains any power is another discussion.

 

[MrZappo]

That's because it's the OEM battery isn't it?...Aftermarkets won't last that long....

I'm still waiting for the reports/reviews/evaluations that demonstrate the difference between OEM and aftermarket. Once we establish that this is really a 'fact' then there is something to look into.

I already told you, the ONLY difference is recycled VS new material.

Gotcha, and I cant explain specific instances of why one guy in town "X" had one battery that lasted longer than another. But one guy does not make a trend and I have yet to see anyone post anything looking like a trend. Something more than "My buddy who is really smart said that this happened to him"

Not saying you are wrong but my experience is somewhat different than what you are posting ...

As to the recycled versus new material, your not getting the point ... As far as the raw materials go, there is no difference from recycled to new ... What makes the lead (and other metals) new ??? They just came out of the mine where they sat in mud since the dinosaurs walked ? It is an element ... It is not new or old, it just is ... When it is recycled or reclaimed and purified back to its original form, it is no better or worse than day one ...

Pop cans don't have a lesser shelf life because the aluminum was recycled right ? How abut the aluminum in your engine block ?

There is no such thing as "new" lead ...

It is interesting to talk about though ...

Does anyone have any stats showing a trend ??